Shoot our Men

World War II Russian Military
#42

Oh no problems mate

Yes, yes, Narodnoye Opolcheniye! I read it but long time ago.

In Poland in 1939 it was called National Defence, (Obrona Narodowa - Narodnaja Oborona).
Some units were fully armed, some had a few old French and Austrian rifles, some had almost nothing - near Gdynia they armed themselves with scythes like in 18-th century.

Not long ago I read memoirs of one Polish soldier which joined Red Army in June 1941. He complained that they gave him rifle with 10 bullets, one handgrenade and such armed battalion of men sent to counterattack German advance. (I don’t blame him… events from his point of view were not funny.)

Yea i think this is true the shortage of amunition and rifles in early stages of war in 1941-42 could be explained of a catactrophical defeats in first period.
It’s unbelivable, but after the summer of 1941 Red Army lost practically all aviation ( about 20 000 aircraft) and almost all tanks park. This is one of the amazing thing IMHO how could Red Army be able to continie the fight after this.
Just the the soldier go to the attack having 10 bullets per rifle.

Such situations were common in Poland in 1939 - the reason - simple - not enough ammunition for old Berthiers, Lebels and Mannlichers.
I think that similar situation was in soviet Russia. Military surplus stores had certain amount of rifles from WWI.
Some desperate commanders made decisions which really costed a lot of lives. But they way of thinking was: “Boys, you have ten bullets each, if everyone of you will kill just 1 German, we will kill 900 of them.”
Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that…

Yes i heared this stupid point. The simular way of thinking could lead us to the justification of kamikaze attacks.

Anyway, I can dig some photos of British Home Guard armed with hunting rifles, forks and putting spikes into the ground against German paratroopers.

Well well if you please sir i would watch to the British Home Guard with forks.:wink:

I wonder why filmmakers see only soviet NKVD shooting with Maxim machine guns their own soldiers and Polish Lancers trying to cut the barrels of Pz-III
with sabres…

Both mentioned events are total b…it.

Just becouse the old film like “4 tankers &dog” is today is “politically immoral”. The whole old direction of patriotic films was broked , but but they suggested nothing instead.
The last generation of directors in Russia is just the mediocre or feebleness today.

Cheers.

#43

Oh, I see what you mean now. Could someone post a image of a beevor so I could see what it looks like? It would be very helpful!

#44

Actually the executions of up to 100 to one ratio was the standard reprisal allowance for an occupying army as per the Geneva Convention…it was ment as a deterrent for civilians to take up arms against occupying forces of any kind for the safety of both the civilian populace and the Occupying armies.

Not that I support this Idea as some German bastards actually went to the full houndread to one ratio inside Croatia.

#45

Really? I did not know. Do you have more info about it?
Thanks.

#46

I think it really made the Russians really fight for there Motherland. What else are you going to do? I heard that any Russian found later as a POW would be executed for being a traitor. Surrendering wasn’t even allowed to the Germans ( atleast what I heard ) and running awya would only get you executed as well.

#47

Sesarch this forum. There is discussion about how many POW went to GULAG and why.

#48

the russains used the people who retreated or cowards and crims to go forth through mine feilds, fortified sectors and such like, if these people came back instead of going forward then they shot them, cowards were shot in all side of the war.

#49

It was Great Patriotic War, guys, don’t forget! To say more simple, it was a war for survival. Russians may have lost their country. For example, the stakes at Stalingrad direction were too high to retreat even farther. Shooting the retreaters sometimes was the only possibility to stop the offensive and the upcoming catastrophe. It was very cruel to shoot own soldiers (as seen from individual’s perspective) but there was no other way out (now imagine the whole picture of those tragic events). Any self-respecting country would use such methods if they want to stay independent and alive.

#50

If this is true I would have shot the retreaters too because the won’t be helping by fighting so that would be a loss by its self.

Right?

#51

The reason retreaters were shot was to scare the other grunts to stay in the battle. From what I know, the Soviet soldiers were actually more afraid of their superior officers than of the Germans.

#52

Thats dum its like fighting for no other purpose than out of fear for there superior officers.

#53

It is not the “retreaters” that were shot, but panic-monger. It is not the same.
Though I am sure a number of innosent men was killed this way. But war is a bloody mess!

#54

Form 3 to 5 well-armed guards (barrage) units (zagradotryads), deploy them in the rear of unstable divisions and oblige them to execute panic-mongers and cowards at site in case of panic and chaotic retreat, thus giving faithful soldiers a chance to do their duty before the Motherland;

Retreaters were shot, that is one of the main points of Order No. 227.

#55

Do you mean like 99% of retreaters were shot? By whoom? By the “guards (barrage) units (zagradotryads)”?

What do you make of this? http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=93171&postcount=26

#56

Hi just cruising through the threads and came across this one I suggest you look at the link below, soviet blocking forces were indeed used and the order was signed by Stalin himself, at the time the soviet army was in a bad way and massive amounts of material and soldiers had been lost to the Germans and this was the way to stop the disintegration of the soviet army.
Harsh? yep sure was, but when your nations survival was at stake the individual doesnt count for much

http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/blockdet.htm

the first paragraph
How Were Soviet Blocking Detachments Employed?
by A.A. Maslov
Translated by COL David M. Glantz
Foreign Military Studies Office, Fort Leavenworth, KS.
(Editor’s introduction: One of the more infamous institutions which the Red Army developed and employed during the Great Patriotic War was “blocking detachments.” These forces were formed to prevent soldiers from leaving the battlefield, individually or en masse. Although little has been written about them in Soviet military-historical literature, German archival records mention their use extensively as one of the more draconian measures used by Soviet commands to prevent unauthorized withdrawals, desertion, or panic among military formations. This article, which describes one incident related to the overall concept of the blocking detachment, is one of the first to describe the origins and nature of the institution using Red Army archival sources.)

#57

Thanks bt3au good analysis.

Here is the scale of total personnel losses in the regiments of Akimenko’s division for the period from 20 through 24 September, inclusive, according to a document prepared by the division headquarters: the 395th Guards Rifle Regiment – 150 men killed or drowned in the river and swamps, 50 missing in action, 405 wounded, and around 850 surrendered as prisoners of war; and the 535th Guards Rifle Regiment – 250 men killed, drowned, or missing in action, 78 wounded, and 100 captured with their weapons as prisoners of war

Actually the first and main reason ot the employing of the blocking detachment units was the resault of extremaly low moral and training level of the soviet troops.
This was not wondering if the young soldiers were sending to the batle.

#58

I must protest!

MANY sources mention Soviet attacks thus…

"Arm in arm and very drunk, these men would run forward, shouting at the top of their lungs. The first two ranks were the only ones to be armed, with the back eight ranks instructed to pick up weapons of the fallen. Mannerhiem mentions that these unquestionably brave troops would run over minefields or lay on barbed wire to provide a “human bridge”…(Purnells History of the Second World War)

“The whole attack was conducted in such a disgusting fashion. It seemed to us that Russian officers had calculated the number of machine guns multiplied by their rate of fire, and provided more than enough men to run across open terrain until our barrels were hot or we were out of ammunition, and added a number of men on that were to actually survive and complete their mission. No attempt made to recover wounded men, and the possibility of being captured by these people was frightfull to behold.”.…Lt.Wilhelm Hoffman at Stalingrad.

50,000,000 casualties for the Soviets alone…BUTCHERS that make the SS look like holiday excursionists in the realm of state sponsored terror.

“Russian officers justified this “method” by stating that German morale was most affected, and when the best way to defeat an enemy is to attack his morale, their method was, by their own definition, a success.”…John Hill from “The Evolution of Infantry Tactics”…Vol 14 No.5 “The General”)

#59

What exactly are you protesting against?
Or you just protest in general, just to be on the safe side?

50,000,000 casualties for the Soviets alone…

Are you sure it is not an underestimation? Was not it like 100.000.000 for the Soviets?
I mean, please, add as meny zeros as you pleased, be my guest.

#60

You must be shoted down once, JapaneBomber, i guess by the Corsar or Mustang:)

MANY sources mention Soviet attacks thus…

"Arm in arm and very drunk, these men would run forward, shouting at the top of their lungs. The first two ranks were the only ones to be armed, with the back eight ranks instructed to pick up weapons of the fallen. Mannerhiem mentions that these unquestionably brave troops would run over minefields or lay on barbed wire to provide a “human bridge”…(Purnells History of the Second World War)

“Mention” what?
The human wave attack during the winter war i guess?
What to hell has it to “Shoting our men” theme?

“The whole attack was conducted in such a disgusting fashion. It seemed to us that Russian officers had calculated the number of machine guns multiplied by their rate of fire, and provided more than enough men to run across open terrain until our barrels were hot or we were out of ammunition, and added a number of men on that were to actually survive and complete their mission. No attempt made to recover wounded men, and the possibility of being captured by these people was frightfull to behold.”.…Lt.Wilhelm Hoffman at Stalingrad.

Now say to us, that in Omaha Beach the yankees did not provided the GErmans mashingunners with more then enough their soldiers:)
“Russian officers”- i told you a rusophobian. True rusophobian…

50,000,000 casualties for the Soviets alone…BUTCHERS that make the SS look like holiday excursionists in the realm of state sponsored terror.

Indeed 11 millions of perished soviet soldiers, during the 1941-45, pluss about 16 mln civils genocided by inviders like your “lovely SS” during holiday excursionists.
But you continie to “use a reliable sources”.We like a funs here.

“Russian officers justified this “method” by stating that German morale was most affected, and when the best way to defeat an enemy is to attack his morale, their method was, by their own definition, a success.”…John Hill from “The Evolution of Infantry Tactics”…Vol 14 No.5 “The General”)

What methods are meant now?
You mix a three quotes from different books , and try to prove the some point?
What are you trying to pove for me?Tha all the "russian officers’ just a butchers who send their mans to die for NOTHING?Just becouse they ( officers) were so stoopid and evil?
Is this your pitiful point?
You know sometimes i feel very sorry the Japane has not captured the Australia.
Not becouse i wish a bad for my australian friends , but becouse you should understand something very importaint.
When you country is under mortal threat ( literally) and their future existence depend on the YOUR ability to stop the enemy now , when the millions of the peoples die in attempt to defend you right for living- i would like to watch how you will kiss an ass YOUR traitors and cowards , who don’t wish to stand at the positions simply becouse they don’t wish.

#61

Red Army tactics were similar for the entire war. Even the push from the Oder cost 300,000 people. Human waves were not just a feature of the Winter War…

50,000,000 is the figure quoted by “Military History Quarterly”, a sterling publication that makes no attempt to fudge figures. Many of these people died of STARVATION, as the Russian industrial machine turned out only certain products in quantity, at the expense of FOOD.

You guys seek to justify such a butchers bill …there is no justification for a poorly mismanaged military force, one that was much stronger in many ways than the German Army.

Most SOVIET generals would have been pensioned off years before…too many political apointees and not enough practiced professionals…

Victory is not an excuse…patriotic fellows that you are, there is not much justifying the record of the Red Army in WW2,…responsability must lie with the guys at the top, not the ordinary “Ivan” that had to put up with this nonsense…

Thank providence the Russian mil;itary is a good deal more of a professional force these days, with world famous units, special forces etc…

“Ivan” won that conflict through sheer gutsy performance…the “leadership” were responsible to no-one, and failed time after time in 1941…even Stalin thought the entire thing had been “f@#Ked up”, to use a phrase from the man of steel himself.

Russians should be justly proud of the common soldier, and correspondingly damning of their leadership.

Brings to mind an old saying about the British Army…it applys equally to the Red Army of 1940-1945…

“LIONS lead by IDIOTS”