Shoot our Men

Red Army tactics were similar for the entire war. Even the push from the Oder cost 300,000 people. Human waves were not just a feature of the Winter War…

50,000,000 is the figure quoted by “Military History Quarterly”, a sterling publication that makes no attempt to fudge figures. Many of these people died of STARVATION, as the Russian industrial machine turned out only certain products in quantity, at the expense of FOOD.

You guys seek to justify such a butchers bill …there is no justification for a poorly mismanaged military force, one that was much stronger in many ways than the German Army.

Most SOVIET generals would have been pensioned off years before…too many political apointees and not enough practiced professionals…

Victory is not an excuse…patriotic fellows that you are, there is not much justifying the record of the Red Army in WW2,…responsability must lie with the guys at the top, not the ordinary “Ivan” that had to put up with this nonsense…

Thank providence the Russian mil;itary is a good deal more of a professional force these days, with world famous units, special forces etc…

“Ivan” won that conflict through sheer gutsy performance…the “leadership” were responsible to no-one, and failed time after time in 1941…even Stalin thought the entire thing had been “f@#Ked up”, to use a phrase from the man of steel himself.

Russians should be justly proud of the common soldier, and correspondingly damning of their leadership.

Brings to mind an old saying about the British Army…it applys equally to the Red Army of 1940-1945…

“LIONS lead by IDIOTS”

Wrong.
The tactic of Red Army was improving and developing all the war.
The desperate tactic of 1941 was determined by the shortage of everything, but MOSTLY the real lack of commander’s experience.
Facing the strongest army of the world, they tryed to do what they can. Very bad , but they tryed.
The tactic of 1943-45 was seriously differ from the previous battle.
The strong Mechanized Armor steamroller with intensive Artillery support.
of course you are wrong about Human wave attack- this was one of the Basic method , that if applied right, get the amazing great resault.
But this methods work ONLY in close interaction with Artillery support and Aviation.Like it stat to work enough perfectly since the 1944.
BTW the push from the Oder , is the Battle of Berlin i guess?
Relax buddy , the total death of the Red Army was about 81 000 from about 2,5 mln of troops imvolved.
Soviet had a total 3,5x1 advantage in strength
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin
Just 3,2% of dead mortality.
For the comparition US lost about 12,5 from 500 000 in Okinawa, i.e. 2,5 %
Having almost 5x1 advantage.
SO as you see the mortality rate was a very close in both armies when the Battles were really hot.
You suggestion about 300 000 of lost is nothing more than simple “brain speculation” that indeed proves nothing.
May be you don’t know but even during the Agust storm ( the liqudation of Kwantung Army for few weeks) the soviet also used the Human wave attack agains suicidal mashin-gunners.But those mashine-gunners had not a much chances coz Soviet artillery fu…d them off before they could make the sensitive casualties :wink:

50,000,000 is the figure quoted by “Military History Quarterly”, a sterling publication that makes no attempt to fudge figures. Many of these people died of STARVATION, as the Russian industrial machine turned out only certain products in quantity, at the expense of FOOD.

The 50 mln is probably the total Demographic decrease of Soviet population during the 1941-45 , that include the people , that could be born if 26 mln killed , can survive.

You guys seek to justify such a butchers bill …there is no justification for a poorly mismanaged military force, one that was much stronger in many ways than the German Army.

You man seek the way to slander our brave ancestors.
So you have no any chance, honeslty.

Most SOVIET generals would have been pensioned off years before…too many political apointees and not enough practiced professionals…

Most of soviet generals would have been purged out of army ( as it really happened in 1937-38) But new generation of professional officers that has come on their places had no any chance to get such brillians experience lake Germans got in 1939-41.
The SOviet were prepeared well in materials, wearponry and ets in 1941.
But they still have a lack of serious practice work, thay probably can beat the any army ( even the Japanes in 1938) but they faced the MOST strong Army of the World in 1941.

Russians should be justly proud of the common soldier, and correspondingly damning of their leadership.

Brings to mind an old saying about the British Army…it applys equally to the Red Army of 1940-1945…

“LIONS lead by IDIOTS”

This is foolish point that indeed has any sense in practice.
Just do not tell that YOU CAN win without your Generals.
Each army is as much good as their generals.The even most brave soldiers can not stooped the enemy without correspond professional leadership.
And lack of Soviet High comman in 1941 has clearly demonstrated it.
there were the all sorts of Hight officers in Red Army - from the stoopid to the very professional ones( as in any other army of world).
And people actualy loved some of them- for instance Chyikov ( commander of 62 army that saved Stalingrad) , Chernijahovskiy, Rokossovskij and many others.
True the were a certain generals lik a a Zukov who was too harsh and direct. But in fact, the peoples oppinion didn’t consider him as a “butcher”. Many former soviet soldier in their memours remember their BEST commander with a good words.
This is not my oppinion but our veterans.
Many of soviet generals have been responsible for catastrophe of 1941, many have bee executed by the military tribunal.
But true is that the many of them lead by the Army in 1944-45 with great professionalism and success.
So your foolish rusophobia is just a paranoia.
Drop the shit at other people, your for instance, not at my

Gentlemen!

Do you know this site: http://www.iremember.ru/
There are tons of RKKA soldiers accounts in both English and Russian.
Take a look. You can also have some vivid illustrations regarding the infantry tactics.

The Japanese medium machine-gun, the Type 92, had an awkward feed mechanism of ammo strips and only fired like 400 rounds a minute (probably less in actual battle). A big difference from the MG-42 in terms of conducting “human wave attacks.”

Type 92 was medium tank as i remember.
400 is not 40 , right. This is 6-7 bullet per second - more then enough to kill 2-3 soldiers for such sort time.
Besides professional mashin-gunner have to take aim precisely and shot by short burts.
Not believe me- ask Rising Sun. He was excellent mashin-gunner as i know.
Plus 400 rounds a minute not bad i think, the economy of ammo is obvious;)For japs it was a critical.
And finaly - nodoby refuse the artillery-in their fortified dots japs have a plenty howitzers that could spoil many blood for soviet infantry.

True the were a certain generals lik a a Zukov who was too harsh and direct. But in fact, the peoples oppinion didn’t consider him as a “butcher”. Many former soviet soldier in their memours remember their BEST commander with a good words.

You know well that any war memoirs of former Soviet soldiers criticising Zhukov or Soviet regime were never allowed to be published in the USSR. Any sober-minded veteran did not even try to publish them as it would have just turned him into a person of interest for appropriate state organs.

During the Khrushev the moderate critical point of Stalin’s generals were allowed.
Don’t forget in the mid1960 even critic of soviet stalins system and his way of ruling were not forbidden ( even welcomed) for the such legally published authors like Solzenitsin.
Regarding the critic of Zhukov- this was a famous matter of his jealous “competitors” Konev almost openly and publically attacked Zhukov in hight military environment.Initially it was just among close circles of peoples.
But soon , since the 1960 the critical analisys of Zhukov was becoming a tupical among all pro-liberal historians in USSR ( in certain limits of course)
What to recollections - nobody need to read a recollections of soviet Era- today we have enough memours , free of political background.
Egorka provides an excellent source of bright recollection of veterans.
So you might learn from “first hands” the relation of soviet soldiers to the their commander.
there are a lot of pretty different views.
But one true is for sure - today the former Soviets soldiers never tell their commander were a “bloody butchers” as try to impose us here one biased japane wearponry admirer:)

hISTORICAL ACCURACY IS NOT ABOUT PATRIOTISM OR REPECT OF ANCESTORS…

It’s about telling the truth…

You guys, caught up in a modern Russia with no sense of itself on the world stage, you guys look back on the Socialist period with rose tinted glasses.

Socialism was only Russian imperialism by another name, anyhow…

Kill your brother isn’t a good idea.Lot of russian soldier was drunk in the front,they principals get some alcohol for the soldiers.The NKVD;GPU;VCSK organizations hunt for these poor man’s.That’s a shame.The germans become aware one of the pow’s is a kommissar,they shoot down immediate usually

Sorry, your point ( all the soviet officers are just “butchers”) doesn’t even pretend to elementary sense, not just to historical accuracy.
It was denied by the many russian veterans who fought in ww2.
You , it has been proved, specially ignore the truly historical events , like the rise of professionalism of “soviet butchers” in the 1944-45 who was able to reach a Great military resaults with very limited casualtied for their soldiers, compared with Allies casualties.

It’s about telling the truth…

You guys, caught up in a modern Russia with no sense of itself on the world stage, you guys look back on the Socialist period with rose tinted glasses.

You man better look for yourself and around to get the “advises”.
As i guessed - you know noting about the War in East at all.
And i don’t see the reason to falsify the facts, even if it was happend during “Socialism” period.

Socialism was only Russian imperialism by another name, anyhow…

Now you openly take the rushophobian point, very well:mrgreen:
What was sense to hide your frank thoughts from most beginning?
You are furious not a socialism but “russian imperialism” .
You propbably think that British colonial imrerialism was better then Soviets one, just because it was a British.
But this is whole other theme.
I just want to say - that your crazy pushophobia get the quite direct effect on us.
Although the critic of Red Army is welcomed ( this help to learn true) but you have to understand , that your point is just like to critic the Israel and Jews from position of Nazis race-superiority ideas - everything they do is disgusting and wrong.
This approach has no any sense.Even being applied to Russia.

I’d like to quote an interesting excerpt from a book I am reading right now (Pomerania 1945 by Helmut Lindenblatt). It deals -beyond of the blocking force issue- with the treatment of liberated russian POW’s by the liberators:
“…on January 29th 1945 at about 5:00 a.m. russian tanks entered the village of Schönrade (Pomerania, eastern Germany). On an estate they surprised a transport of 600 russian POW’s guarded by two german officers and 14 soldiers. Within a few minutes the germans were led to the farmyard and shot. Little later however 17 russian POW’s were picked either and also shot for unknown reasons. It was speculated that they had been denounced by their comrades for collaboration with the germans or otherwise just to make an example of how to treat soldiers of the Red Army to let themselves get captured by the enemy without fighting till death.”

Do not you think that it is piculiar that 17 out of 600 Soviet POW were shot? I mean it is strange number to pick up for a terror action, do not you think?
If it was random exectution for the reasons of “make an example of how to treat soldiers of the Red Army to let themselves get captured by the enemy without fighting till death”, then it would be a round number, like 20, 30, 50…

In my mind the most likely explanation is the one mentioned by you: “It was speculated that they had been denounced by their comrades for collaboration with the germans”.

Which does not eliminate possibility that some or even all of those 17 people were innosent. I mean some one could have accused other people out personal antipathy.
The same goes for the executed German soldiers - some or all of them could had been treating those POW as good as was possible in the circumstances… But during offensive enemy tends to priotorise offensive over the life of captured enemies…

Well, if it was possible you should tell this one to the prosecutors of the Malmedy trial, not sure they would totally agree. But,ok, we’re talking eastern front here, meaning “different measures”.
Anyway, I was just quoting the book and didn’t utter my own opinion on the incident, it seems most likely to me that “personal accounts have been settled”, this would explain the strange number of 17. It’s incontestable though that soviet soldiers liberated from german war captivity weren’t welcome with open arms by their liberators. Oftenly enough they joined their german companions in misfortune on their way to Siberia.
As to the execution of the german guards, during this period -when the Red Army firstly entered german soil on a larger scale- there certainly was a no-prisoner-policy, this means both sides.

Unlike British rule, which was admired the longer their reign lasted, I know of NO country on earth affected by Russian Imperialism that came away from the experience wanting to remain as part of the Soviet Bloc…

I have nothing against ordinary Russians…their leaders, however, ARE A DISGRACE.

any FOOL can turn up on a collapsing section of the “front” or behind enemy lines to restore discipline with a Nagan in hand, carrying out ‘summary executions’ to “restore order”…IF our officers in the West carried on in such a fashion, many would find themselves “fragged” by their own troops.

Gee…isn’t it lucky the Soviets finished WW2 on the winning side…many Russian officers would have (and SHOULD HAVE) been prosecuted for murderous misconduct.

NAME ONE SOVIET OFFICER OF ANY RANK PROSECUTED FOR WAR CRIMES…NO YUGOSLAVS EITHER…

You guys crying “Russo-phobe”, get your heads out of the sand!!!

I’ll give you an article by JOHN HILL on BASIC INFANTRY TACTICS OF WW2, to show you just how far removed from reality these Soviet officers were…

Of course, those of you in Eastern Europe see your own participation in WW2 as benign…remember, there would not have been a WW2 as we know it had the Soviet Union not signed the Nazi-Soviet Pact of '39…large amounts of evidence to sustain that one…

Any other denials?..Face it, modern Russians just put the ‘blinkers’ on and conveniently forget the moral and social bankruptcy of the Soviet Years…

If Socialism was such a good idea, why are 120 billion Dollars U.S. disappearing into Russia every year to corruptive business practice?

The story with Russia just goes on and on. Your leaders have been irresponsible fools and butchers of other Russians, and modern Russians, naturally, want to sweep it under the carpet as “Russophobia”…

Interesting point:)
So who in your mind the “ordinary russians” that let to manage themself by DISGRACED leaders?

any FOOL can turn up on a collapsing section of the “front” or behind enemy lines to restore discipline with a Nagan in hand, carrying out ‘summary executions’ to “restore order”…IF our officers in the West carried on in such a fashion, many would find themselves “fragged” by their own troops.

True, so the propogandic b…sh that "officers with Nagans curriing out of executin…and ets…
This is so foolish , that nobody in Russia today wish to hear it.
Even russian WW2 veterans:)

Gee…isn’t it lucky the Soviets finished WW2 on the winning side…many Russian officers would have (and SHOULD HAVE) been prosecuted for murderous misconduct.

Yes it very sad.
i think if USSR joined the axis and Germany would have finish the Britain - soon the Japane “master-race” would show you in Australia the “murderous misconduct”.

You guys crying “Russo-phobe”, get your heads out of the sand!!!

Why?
to put it into somebody’s ass?just like you?

I’ll give you an article by JOHN HILL on BASIC INFANTRY TACTICS OF WW2, to show you just how far removed from reality these Soviet officers were…

But why the “far removed from reality soviet officers” crushed the GErmans in 1944-45, and kicked the whole Kwantung army for couple of weeks?
Sorry but you obviously has no any point here.

remember, there would not have been a WW2 as we know it had the Soviet Union not signed the Nazi-Soviet Pact of '39…large amounts of evidence to sustain that one…

Yea?
I/m too know a lot of “conspiracy theories” as evidence of “real” reasons of events.

Any other denials?..Face it, modern Russians just put the ‘blinkers’ on and conveniently forget the moral and social bankruptcy of the Soviet Years…

Nodoby trying to restore today the "Soviet years’,relax buddy and enjoy:)

If Socialism was such a good idea, why are 120 billion Dollars U.S. disappearing into Russia every year to corruptive business practice?

Of course this is BAD idea, becouse in Russia already 17 years is a CAPITALISM.
If you’ve forgot it:)
The corruption disaster is the common illness of all the CAPITALLIST East European states.not just Russia

The story with Russia just goes on and on. Your leaders have been irresponsible fools and butchers of other Russians, and modern Russians, naturally, want to sweep it under the carpet as “Russophobia”…

Oh what we were doing without your friendly advise;)

German and the Soviet Union joining hands to finish off England?

Unlikely…Stalin was the only state leader in Europe under this delusion. Hitler was the ONLY national leader he TRUSTED.

The Egyptian cartoonist (KEM) that portrayed Hitler and Stalin tied together at the boot and each with a hand on his gun at the time of the Nazi-Soviet Pact was expressing what should have been obvious to everyone inside the Soviet Union at the time. It was certainly obvious to him and many others…Stalin was the only one that missed it.

Adolphus was such a pronounced anti-communist…he had said it so often as to be unmentionable in his speeches, and “Drang Nach Osten” WAS national Policy in the Reich for a long time before June 22nd 1941…

No Chevan…Russia was out on it’s own virtually from the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk onward. The chances of a dictatorship stretching from the from the Spanish border to Vladivostock was a big fat ZERO…

Besides…British diplomacy in the hands of Winston Churchill made sure that the Eurpoean dictators would be fighting eachother, and that the U.S. would intervene on a “Europe First” basis…

Winston was a fine strategist, and he succeeded in his plan of playing off one dictatorship versus another. I’m glad his vision was the post-war model we went into the Cold War with…

Who wants to be ruled by Russian politicians and military men?

Most of us don’t…free thinking people have spoken on this issue already… PRAVDA

Russia Capitalist?

Their version of it. I don’t think Russians have really gotten the “hang” of capitalism just yet…too much organised crime involved in business…too many politicians like Putin with military roots.

Putin is still well and truly running the country at present, isn’t he? WHO elected him, or his successor for that matter, groomed for the top slot in the Kremlin as he was…

Russian Capitalism and Russian Democratic freedom still have a long way to go. If you dropped the rose-tinted view of the Soviet years as anything but a disaster for Russia as a whole, you may well get somewhere.

Until then, it’s the same dictatorship running the largest nation on earth…and, as usual, they couldn’t organise a piss-up in a brewery without sustaining millions of casualties.

Chevan, Russian “tactics” remained very similar right up to VE Day…BRESLAU cost 60,000 people, and fighting trapped soldiers with ersatz and volksturm boy soldiers and grandfathers. And it went on for weeks and weeks…Breslau only surrendered a few days before BERLIN fell!!!

Most top Breslau German Generals dissappeared into the Soviet, never to return. If Red Army “tactics” were that advanced by mid 1945, how did Breslau extract such a high price of experienced soldiers?

Answer…they were still using the “same old steamroller” in 1945…only highly publicised units got “the training”…the Red Army went into Barbarossa as a uniformed rabble and emerged with a VERY PATCHY record for the service of it’s units…

The casualties for the final push from the Oder River tell the story. This much “practiced” military service of the Red Army that could not advance qithout throwing lives away under grotesque circumstances.

Modern Russians would naturally sweep all this under the carpet…rather like the Romans turning the Carthaginian general Hannibal Barca into a larger than life characterization specifically to highlight their own “achievements” in the martial sphere…

No hiding the dead from Cannae…just like there was no hiding the butchers bill from Soviet Red Army field operations.

AMATUERS…

Modern Russians have a curious detachment from these facts…of course, nobody wants to put the old leaders in a bad light for fear of it rubbing off to the rest of the community! Russia still has a “complex” about it’s own image…Funny how we westerners thrive on critcism of these same leaders.

If you don’t stand up and object to big issues like those mentioned above (like gross misconduct and mis-management leading to gross casualties), then you never do anything towards solving the basic problem. Your leaders can keep patting themselves on the back for the victory while critics of the Russian “system” go unvoiced…

No wonder Solzhenitsyn emigrated…

Ive got that movie, and i also think its a great movie.
well in there cercumstanaces when you cant see anything or hear anything.
When you got enemy soilders close bye you cant take any chances.
Shoot to kill or to be killed thats how i see it.

Sure they have! Unfortunately, they started with the 19th century, robber baron version of it in the 1990s!