I thought Krivosheev put Soviet casualties in the Berlin operation at about 78,291 killed or missing. Does anyone know of a breakdown of the dead and missing?
I don’t think shooting them was a great idea but their war tactic of “they can’t kill us all” was where this spawned. Deserters were those who chose to not run into bullets. I can honestly say that i would have turned around and ran like none other.
It’s coz you didn’t fight on the real war.
If you know for sure, that your mates will die if you ran away - this is a crime.Why should you live while others should die?
That’s why i think it was a good idea to introduce the Penalty Units for deserters
Very human and reasonable.
I heard the namder of missed were around 10 000. But not sure all of them have been killed or dead.
One factor that seems relevant regarding the treatment of deserters is the brutality or lack thereof of the enemy. If the enemy is trying to win but is not bent on your total annihilation then defeat or at least compromise might be morally preferable to trying to win no matter the cost.
However, the nazi treatment of people in the USSR was fairly awful as far as I can tell so harsh measures seem more justifiable than in other conflicts the USSR/Russia engaged in.
Exactly.
People on the west often don’t understand that war in East was in sense , war for EXISTENCE for whole ethnic groups of USSR.If to believe to so called “General Plan Ost” - the slav population of former USSR should have been serioulsy limited up to 50 mln through the decade after the war.Even such devoted friends of Nazis as Baltic nationalists - shall be later deported further to the East.
It doesn’t mean the phisycal annihilation - it may be the special means kinda the ban for birth, sterilization of woman and propogand of abortions and ets. regarding to the “low races”.
That’s why i think we shouldn’t have no mercy for all sort of Colloborators/deserters in Red Army - whatever they spoke for their justification ( kinda “fight against bolshevism”/“Liberation of Russia” and simular propogandic mud) - FINALY they forugh for Regime that targeted to the TOTAL limitation of our people.
and the commies didn’t do the same things later killing all who they wanted no matter if they were just a professors , teachers or whatever just because they are called "enemies of the nation " without trial , prison just shot . As i see in my country you did very good job - i mean those who said we are commies and we serve the great leader Stalin - the commies did so much killing that the nazis never did here . So please stop with these funny post about how the great communism saved us , it’s just saved some most died later , that’s why the western people won’t understand it because it can’t be understanded to kill peope without court and to send them to GULAG or camps . It’s same thing as what Nazis did .
He didn’t really say communism saved -you-. He said that he understood why there was a harsh treatment of deserters because the army fought against the annihilation and/or deportation of the Slavic people.
Later…?
Buddy, later not just Commi killed OWN Nazis collobarotors - the Frenchs have executed a lot of them too.
No matter who they were - “professors,teachcers, workers” or simply volunteres who share the Nazis Races ideas…
BTW how do you think -To which Race did the Bulgarians belong - to Low-race( just like the russians) or to master-race?
Ivaylo wasn’t talking about Nazi-Supporters - he was talking about general opposition to the Communist regime. And that these people were persecuted under Stalin is no secret…
That’s completely right - or maybe i have to start to think that my grand father was a nazi supporter on age 77 in 1945 
that’s why without trail he was called for "friendly " meetings in the local police for some "friendly " beating . Actually he was lucky to get away with only that , some weren’t so lucky and they got a shot , friends of my grand father , were simply farmers , workers , teachers not supporters of the Nazi regime and during it they simply did their ordinary day work , they didn’t walk with Nazi flags and didn’t send their children on the Eastern Front . As for the race the official german politic said it clear - bulgarians doesn’t belong to the slavic common group to which russians , belorussians belong so they are not treat to us . If we belonged to the so called slavic group that you so much want to put us in ( remember when our country was formed in 681 by Khan Asparuh not only slavs formed it but also the so called Bulgars ) so we aren’t completely slavs because in the process of forming there are two ethnic groups , so you can accept that we are only 1/2 slavs . Not to mention that during the existence of Bulgaria ( look at the name it Bulgaria ) there were many marriages between us and citizens of Byzantine Empire as well as other ethnic groups .So we are pretty much mixed and no one can say I am slav completely 100 % . So up to that moment the germans i think found out that and they felt that we are no threat or danger to them , even more we let them pass in 1941 . By any means only the Germans were the master race so i think you didn’t read well there is arcticle in wikipedia somewhere about the racial politic of Third Reich found and read it well . The other races were just more or less near or far the ONLY ONE race that was to be master - the germans .
yea , you let them pass absolutly voluntary coz hoped to get a profit after the GErman victory.
You don’t care that many nations and ethnic groups shall disappear, right.
And now you are crying that “farmers , workers , teachers” who just worked ( for GErmany) during the 1941-44, while others fought and died for its lands have been punished?
And what you actually propose to fight with a million Reich Army waiting to smash us to pieces on Danube ? With what ? With absolute tanks and rifles from WW1 ? And from what i see you didn’t and you don’t care if we will disappear so why we should care if you will ? And no i am not crying for farmes and teachers , i am simply saying the truth because my grand father was neither comunist nor nazi supporter but because he wasn’t the first the great holy USSR made repression against him . And what you gonna say me that on age 77 he was a Nazi ?? Heinrich Himmler himself or what ? So yes i don’t care if communist commisars , NKVD officers and other Stalin pupets got killed because the only thing they got to my poor grand father was punishment , in other countries rapes and many murders of civil population . If you so much cared about punishment of the nazis you had to make a real courts not to shoot people without even a process which to the end of the world will bring your beloved communism next to the Nazi terror . And that’s what all the western countries said and continue to say , that’s why they won’t ever understand the war in the East , the war in Chechenia and many others , simply they are democratic nations , not perfect but trying to follow some reasoning and law unlike what my parents saw and many others from Eastern block during 45 years nice murdering communist rule and terror . That’s something they will never understand for sure .
As a Westerner, I agree that none of us can understand, in the sense of having any personal or family experience of the horrors which occurred in Europe, and notably Eastern Europe, the Balkans and the Baltic states, during and after WWII. And for that matter, which occurred much more recently in some of those places, such as Bosnia which had nothing to do with communism and everything to do with ancient ethnic and religious divisions. Tito’s communist state actually prevented it happening.
Another of the reasons we in the West can’t understand it is that we haven’t inherited the ancient divisions and hostilities which still exist in those parts of the world, as exemplified on a smaller but violently bitter scale by the situation in Cyprus between Greeks and Turks some decades ago and more recently in what used to be Yugoslavia and the endless conflict about who is entitled to Macedonia and the title Macedonian.
Most Western countries, and mine in particular, have absorbed people from most of those areas of conflict. Generally we have avoided open conflict between those groups in their new country. And we won’t tolerate it when it happens.
It is understandable but sad that people who remain in those countries can’t manage to achieve the same degree of tolerance for their opponents that their countrymen find in a new country.
On a separate point, communism as such has never been the problem, any more than Catholicism or Islam are in other areas of conflict. The problem has been the way those systems have been exploited by bad and selfish people for bad and selfish purposes. Which pretty much qualifies them as perfect capitalists.
It is psyhology of traitors:)
Serbs fought with NO tanks and by rifles from ww1 era enough succesfull for against inviders( a million Reich army).
You couldn’t. you has just invited them and waited .
And that’s all after that Russia done for you independence from your beloved ottoman Empire.
And don’t tell me about your "POOR "grand father, who has been “beaten” in 77
My granddad DIED in age 23 in 1942 fighting agains Mainstain troops on Southern Russia.
“Traitors” to whom?
Nobody.
A nation can’t possibly be declared a traitor for following its national interests rather than some other nation’s - especially when there’s no treaty there to bind them.
To ALL others who fought and die, Nick.
The Colloborationism in all form was a crime , espesialy on the East.
Becouse as i said , the Nazism has been targeted for elimination of entire nations.
Yes , but then TAHT Nation can’t cry about its fate after the war.Coz they did not care about others.
It is stupid at least, we lost a millions of civils, thousands died per day.While some nations lived in relative comfort, watching how others have been exterminated.
Now one cry about “bitter fate” of his country- Bulgaria:)
Haha yes traitor to whom ?? To USSR ?? Excuse me but as Schuultz said we weren’t in any alliance with you mr.Chevan , and that’s something you have to learn mr. Chevan - Bulgaria is INDEPENDENT nation so we don’t have to follow your rule of what who is "traitor " and who’s not because you see things only from your eyes and stubbornly resist to see the things from the other people , you call us traitors for following our own national interest as Shuultz said , and that’s really funny it’s the same thing as to call you traitor because you invaded our country via help of partisans in september 1944 and after that the russian communists with the help of their bulgarian counterparts committed mass murders that you for known reasons refuse to see . And please don’t tell me what i can tell or what not , remember mr.Chevan we live in democracy thanks to the western allies and from the communism that you so much enjoyed and that we so much suffered there is nothing left . So get use to it that’s the reality . And if we have to be traitors in your eyes we will be because our national interest is N1 as well as the major powers follow theirs . As for my grand father he was really Beaten not "beaten " mr.Chevain and was forced to be without work simply because he was called "enemy of the state " something that even the nazis didn’t do here , even more my father was banned from posibility to go to university you know why mr.Chevain ? Because he was with father "enemy of the state " on age 77 , that are the facts and i will tell them till the end of my life and you won’t stop me because i live in freedom , get to use to that too .
And don’t count only how many your country gave as casualties , what the whole Eastern Block gave as casualties + the GDR people trying to get trough to the West and shot on the wall ( btw why this people were running out of there maybe , wasn’t communism a nice sistem with pleasure and enjoyment mr . Chevan ? Or maybe you were in 45 years of enjoyment while others were suffering as repayment for your casualties ? That’s pretty much the same as the nazis wanted suffering from the Allies because Germany lost the WW1 ) so i think we payed and even repayed with so much death sentences over 45 years of harsh communist rule .