Should the atomic bombs have been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Much might have been thrown at him, but he was a man who had exactly the clarity of vision; strength of character; and will necessary to finish the war on the best terms for his nation, and his Allies.

People can bitch all they like about how things could have been different, but if Truman / America had refrained from using the A bomb and America instead had spent a few years grinding its way through Japan using rifles and .30 and .50 automatic weapons and grenades and phosphorous and flame throwers and tanks and artillery and air support to mow down millions of women and children and old men armed with bamboo spears:

Q. What would the world say now?

A. Truman / America were cruel not to sacrifice a few hundred thousand Japanese with A bombs to bring Japan to surrender rather than slaughter millions in a slow war Japan could not win, which shows that America wanted to exterminate the Japanese.

Or something equally condemnatory of America for not finishing the war a lot sooner with many fewer Japanese slaughetered (like anyone except Americans would give a stuff about the avoidable American casualties) when it had the means to do so.

Whatever happened, it was going to be truly bad. It was just a choice between the lesser of two evils.

I think America chose the right one, nasty and terrible though it was.

Let’s not forget that it wouldn’t have happened if Japan hadn’t gone feral and charged through a fair part of the planet from the Aleutians to Burma to Guadalcanal to subjugate and abuse other peoples. If Japan had stayed home, it wouldn’t have been bombed.

Contrary to the selective bullshit that emanates from the Hiroshima / Nagasaki / war crimes / nuclear is bad unless it happens to illuminate our watchfaces or run our smoke detectors camps, Truman and America didn’t wake up one day in July 1945 and think “What can I do today to be a real bastard to tens of thousands of innocent Japanese?”. Japan put him, and its people in that position.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22001665-401,00.html

“I understand the bombings brought the war to its end. I think it was something that couldn’t be helped.”

Minister apologises over Hiroshima remarks
By Peter Alford

July 02, 2007 12:00am

Article from:
JAPANESE Defence Minister Fumio Kyuma apologised yesterday for saying he understood why the US had dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945.

“I am sorry that my remarks gave an impression that (I was making light of) A-bomb victims,” Mr Kyuma said yesterday at a press conference in Nagasaki prefecture, his home area.

“I have to apologise to people in the prefecture and people across the nation for causing trouble.”

Mr Kyuma said he would not resign over the remarks, which have embarrassed his Liberal Democratic Party at the outset of an upper house election campaign, which is already shaping as difficult for the governing parties.

The LDP and its coalition partner, New Komeito, a pacifist party whose members took particular offence at the remarks, fear they will lose their upper house majority in the July 29 election.

“Nuclear weapons are absolute evil,” said Tetsuo Saito, a New Komeito politician.

“The remarks run against the grain of the Japanese people,” Saito said.

“They are the remarks any state minister must not make.”

Shoichi Nakagawa, LDP’s chief policy-maker, also said: “The remarks are not in line with my idea. It was regrettable.”

In his speech at the weekend, the 66-year-old Mr Kyuma said he understood the Americans fearing that unless Japan were forced to surrender immediately, the Russians, who had entered the Pacific War in its final days, would invade northern Japan.

“Luckily, Hokkaido was not occupied. In the worst case, Hokkaido could have been taken by the Soviet Union,” Mr Kyuma said.

"I don’t hold a grudge against the US.

“I understand the bombings brought the war to its end. I think it was something that couldn’t be helped.”

Mr Kyuma said he did not condone the bombings and regretted it if that was the impression he had conveyed.

But his remarks angered A-bomb survivors and their descendants.

“They are comments by those who do not understand the misery of A-bombings at all,” 81-year-old Kazushi Kaneko, head of a group of Hiroshima survivors, told the Kyodo news agency.

“He ignores the fact that many A-bomb survivors are still suffering today.”

Speaking in Nagasaki, Nobel Prize-winning novelist Kenzaburo Oe called the remarks “meaningless and criminal”.

That’s a comment by someone who probably doesn’t understand Japan’s responsibility for the immense suffering caused to others by the war Japan embarked upon all by itself in pursuit of its arrogant colonial ambitions. Which, strange to relate but true, were even more arrogant than the European colonial powers and, by the standards of the time rather than those which accompanied Europe’s earlier colonisation, much less restrained because of the peculiar dominance of the IJA and IJN in Japan’s semi-medieval imperial constitution and ways of government.

Poor old 81 year old Mr Kazushi Kaneko might have been a victim of the A-bomb, but at his age he was almost certainly also a product of Japan’s extraordinarily restrictive education and censorship policies which were vastly more effective than anything any communist nation had achieved at the time, or since outside China and North Korea, and exactly what Orwell described as ‘group think’ in his post-war novel ‘Nineteen Eighty Four‘, although he never had Japan in mind when writing it.

Kaneko san was probably a double victim, of both indoctrination and the wider Japanese imperial system and all its evils which, contrary to Japanese post-war revisionist history, allowed and fostered and protected the militarists rather than being subordinate to them as Hirohito and his devious courtiers and their subsequent defenders would like us to believe.

Be all that as it may, Kaneko san, like the vast bulk of Japanese society for the half century or so before the war who were indoctrinated from birth to support and advance Japan’s ambitions as determined largely by unelected imperial and military oligarchs, was probably just as much a part of the apparatus which supported and celebrated Japan’s military adventures. If he wasn’t, he was in a very tiny and brave, and invariably suppressed, minority.

Most of the Japanese people before WWII weren’t any more capable, whether through belief or fear, of independent thought and action than were many people in Nazi Germany which was a far less restrictive society and yet a greater aberration in national thought and development than was semi-modern Japan.

But that doesn’t relieve any of them of responsibility for supporting bad actions.

“He ignores the fact that many A-bomb survivors are still suffering today.”

So?

What was Japan’s response to the comfort women?

How much bullshit does Japan still present, and how much responsibility does it avoid, in even its current modified education system about Japan’s responsibility for and actions in the war from 1931 to 1945?

I’m sorry Keneko san and many others were killed and injured and suffered terribly in the A bomb attacks, and for that matter in the fire bomb attacks. As I am for anyone anywhere who suffered as the result of random or unjust actions such as, say, the execution of patients and medical staff by Japanese troops at the Alexandra Hospital in Singapore before they moved on to larger scale executions of Chinese, converting their hostility to the Chinese into rape and torture and death in Singapore as they did earlier in Nanking.

But if we get right down to it, I’m disgusted at what the Japanese did all over Asia. Millions of people suffered much more and much longer under Japanese barbarity than the few hundred thousand Japanese who were nuked and fire bombed.

If Japan hadn’t embarked on that course, Japan would never have been bombed. Nor even one of its people hurt by an Allied action.

So, apart from a general regret that anyone has suffered in war or from any other act they couldn’t control, I really couldn’t give a stuff about another bleat by Keneko san in the long line of self-centred bleats from Japan about how it was the victim of the immoral Allies nuking it when it refuses to acknowledge its own responsibility for initiating that grave misfortune. And not least because much of its population remains in the dark, or is incapable of admitting fault, because of the continuation of aspects of the distorted educational and government information systems and national attitudes which in part led to the war and which still exist to a disturbing degree.

The Japanese may have been victims of their imperial semi-feudal and semi-modern government before and during the war, and of their governments after the war, but that’s not my problem.

Until they sort it our for themselves, I’m not interested in hearing more of their selective breast-beating, ’poor fellow me’ presentation of history. They inflicted a bloody sight more suffering with no reason on others than they suffered with good reason as the sole and direct consequence of their own voluntary actions.

Truman wasn’t responsible for the war. Hirohito, Tojo, and the whole militaristic Japanese cabal was, right down to the junior officers in both services who were allowed to run riot for years before the war in defiance of the often impotent civil government, such as it was. Those officers and the officials in the imperial system, right up to the emperor, which encouraged and protected them are the ones who created, quite unnecessarily, the conditions for Japan to get nuked, and who bear all the responsibility.

Japan, at times, reminds me of the burglar who breaks into someone else’s house with the intention of raping and killing anyone home and stealing everything he can find, and then starts whingeing about being hurt by the occupants defending themselves and wants compensation for his injuries. It’s about time modern Japan woke up to the fact that burglars who get hurt in the course of a burglary should get over it. And should be bloody grateful that they were never punished in kind for the crimes they committed.

HERE HERE !!! well put, and right on! One of those interviewed after the Ministr’s comment, said that Japan is a victim. It is, that is sure. It is a victim of its own vulgar greed, and inhumanity. Sew the wind, Reap the whirl-wind.

Extend this even further gentlemen. The defeated Nazi Germany underwent extensive de Nazification in the post war years and every German generation since has basically acknowledged Germany’s role in the war.

Modern Japan has been shielded from their sordid history.

Regards digger

The differences are that:

  1. Germany has aknowledged its wrongs. Japan has made several formal apologies but they have always been obscure and equivocal rather than acknowledging that Japan was wrong. The face issue probably comes into this.

  2. Germany has, as best as it could, atoned for its wrongs. Japan hasn’t, partly because it doesn’t fully admit them.

  3. Germany has obliterated Nazism from its government, national and public life. Japan still engages in its equivocal links with its militarist past through events such as visits by various prime ministets to the Yakusuni shrine where, among others, major Japanese war criminals and those otherwise responsible for the war are honoured.

  4. Germany doesn’t have any direct links with its Nazi past in its government, political or national life. The militarists and their nationalist conservative successors have maintained a strong presence and influence in Japanese government, political and national life.

There couldn’t be a clearer example of the differences than it being a crime in Germany to exhibit Nazi symbols and to deny the Holocaust while Japan has been running an education and political system that denies its own war time wrongs.

Germany has long since buried whatever war guilt it earned, but Japan keeps the stinking corpse of its war guilt in the dark recesses of its national life while refusing to admit it exists, despite everyone else being able to smell it.

The result is that some people, like me, in nations affected by Japan’s war are still suspicious of Japan. Those suspicions are heightened by the reaction to the Defence Minister’s comments posted by mike M., and now by the forced resignation of the Defence Minister for making those comments.

Japanese defense minister resigns over A-bomb comments

The Associated Press
Monday, July 2, 2007
TOKYO: Japan’s defense minister resigned Tuesday after suggesting the U.S. atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 were inevitable, a comment that stirred up a storm of criticism in a country where the bombings are seen by many as an unjustified slaughter of civilians.

Defense Minister Fumio Kyuma, a native of Nagasaki, said he did not mean to condone the attacks.

“I just meant that there was nothing we could do about it,” he said after tendering his resignation to Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, whose administration has been plunging in popularity and faces key parliamentary elections later this month. “I don’t think people understood what I meant.”

Kyuma’s remarks generated angry criticism from survivors of the bombings, opposition lawmakers and fellow Cabinet members.

The mayor of Nagasaki was among the most vocal, telling Kyuma to stay away from a ceremony marking the bombing anniversary next month and saying the comment “tramples on the feelings of A-bomb victims.”

In a speech on Saturday, Kyuma said the atomic bombings caused great suffering. But he added that Japan would have otherwise kept fighting and ended up losing a greater part of its northern territory to the Soviet Union, which invaded Manchuria on the day Nagasaki was bombed.

“I understand that the bombings ended the war, and I think that it couldn’t be helped,” he said.

Though Kyuma’s statement was similar to the interpretation in the United States that the bombings hastened the war’s end and thus saved lives, it contradicted the generally held Japanese stance, fiercely guarded by survivors and their supporters, that the use of nuclear weapons is never acceptable.

A ban on the possession of such weapons is a hallowed tenet of Japan’s postwar pacifist policies. Kyuma’s remarks were slammed as both a tacit acceptance of the 1945 U.S. decision and of the use of nuclear weapons in general.

“Abe should have said this is outrageous,” said Tomoaki Iwai, a political scientist at Nihon University in Tokyo. “The atomic bombings are something that Japanese people can never forgive.”

Kyuma’s repeated apologies and a stern reprimand from Abe failed to quell the furor.

The opposition had been preparing to submit a formal request for Kyuma’s resignation later Tuesday, and opposition leaders claimed Abe shared the blame. Kyuma, who represents Nagasaki in the lower house of Parliament, resigned to minimize the pre-election fallout.

He was replaced by National Security Adviser Yuriko Koike, the first woman to assume the defense portfolio.

In Washington, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Kyuma’s resignation was an internal matter for Japan. But he said the United States looked forward to working with Japan’s first female defense minister.

Since Abe, an avowed nationalist, assumed office last September, lingering controversies over World War II have become front-and-center issues.

Abe himself was the focus of international ire for denying that the government forced “comfort women” to work at front-line brothels during the war, despite historical evidence to the contrary. And a large faction within Abe’s party is rallying for a re-evaluation of the Rape of Nanking, in which the Chinese claim as many as 300,000 people were slaughtered.

The atomic bombings are an even more delicate issue.

On Aug. 6, 1945, the U.S. dropped a bomb nicknamed “Little Boy” on Hiroshima, killing at least 140,000 people in the world’s first atomic bomb attack. Three days later it dropped another atomic bomb, “Fat Man,” on Nagasaki where about 74,000 are estimated to have been killed.

Japan surrendered on Aug. 15, 1945.

Abe has not made his own position on the bombings public, saying instead that Kyuma “caused misunderstandings” with his remarks.

Koike, Kyuma’s successor, also carefully avoided the topic in her first meeting with reporters.

“Japan wants to continue to be a leader toward nuclear abolishment,” she said.

Kyuma was among the most outspoken of Abe’s Cabinet ministers.

In January, he raised eyebrows in Washington by calling the U.S. decision to invade Iraq a “mistake” because it was based on the false premise that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction. Japan and the U.S. are close military allies, and Japan hosts some 50,000 American troops under a security treaty.

Kyuma later apologized for that comment, too.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/03/asia/AS-GEN-Japan-A-Bomb-Comment.php

Japan wallows in its nuclear victimhood and forces the resignation of a ruling party defence minister who dared to suggest that maybe nuking Japan was justified (but only because it avoided Japan losing territory to the Soviets!).

Meanwhile 100 members of that same ruling party have been beavering away to revise history to show that the Rape of Nanking never happened, because the Japanese weren’t brutal. Presumably their next revelation will be that the Burma Railway was a rest camp for Allied POWs bored with their luxurious existence in Changi. This will be followed by the revelation that Japan gave America one month’s notice that it intended to bomb Pearl Harbor and it’s America’s fault that anyone got hurt there.

We’re not talking about some isolated lunatic Holocaust deniers and their ilk here. These 100 people are in the governing party in Japan. Can you imagine Japanese, and international, reaction if a similar slab of the US Congress or the British Commons published their findings that hardly anyone died in Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Or if even one member of those assemblies published such a view? But Japanese revisionism doesn’t provoke any international outrage, because we’re used to Japan’s absurd deceits and self-deception about its war record and its clever promotion of itself as the victims of a nuclear war crime.

These people are nucking futs, and dangerous nuts at that. And not to be trusted.

Ruling party lawmakers dispute ‘Rape of Nanking’ death toll

The Associated Press
Tuesday, June 19, 2007
TOKYO: A group of about 100 lawmakers from Japan’s ruling party claimed Tuesday that after a monthslong review they have determined the number of people killed by Japanese troops during the infamous “Rape of Nanking” has been grossly inflated.

Nariaki Nakayama, head of the group created to study World War II historical issues and education, said documents from the Japanese government’s archives indicated some 20,000 people were killed — about one-tenth of the more commonly cited figure of from 150,000-200,000 — in the 1937 attack. China says as many as 300,000 people were killed.

“We conclude that the death toll in the Nanking advance was nothing more or less than the death toll that would be expected in a normal battle,” Nakayama told a news conference.

He said the study, which was initiated in part because this year marks the 70th anniversary of the slaughter, determined there was no violation of international law. The group began the Nanking study in February.

“We have no intention to fan the problem over the interpretation of wartime history between the two countries, but we want to achieve justice,” he said. “We cannot ignore propaganda trying to portray the Japanese as brutal people, so we decided to examine primary documents to restore the honor of the Japanese people.”

Nakayama distributed to the news conference a document produced by the League of Nations, the forerunner to the United Nations, from a Feb. 2, 1938 meeting, during which China’s Nationalist government called for Japan to be denounced for killing 20,000 people in the attack.

The Chinese representative to the league, Wellington Koo, quoted newspaper reports from the Daily Telegraph and Morning Post dated Jan. 28, 1938.

Nakayama accused China’s government of subsequently inflating the numbers for propaganda purposes.

Toru Toida, another member of the group, demanded that photos portraying the Japanese military in a negative light be removed from Chinese war memorials.

“We are absolutely positive that there was no massacre in Nanking,” Toida said.

Memorials to the killings are scattered throughout the city, and the main memorial — built on the site of a mass grave — is visited by tens of thousands of Chinese schoolchildren each year.

Nanjing suffered a rampage of murder, rape and looting by Japanese troops in 1937 that became known as “The Rape of Nanking,” using the name by which the city was known in the West at that time.

Historians generally agree the Japanese army slaughtered at least 150,000 civilians and raped tens of thousands of women.

Nakayama’s group is right of center within the ruling Liberal Democratic Party, but many Japanese conservatives are disgruntled over what they claim are exaggerated stories of Japanese brutality during World War II.

Historians say as many as 200,000 women, mainly from Korea, China and the Philippines, worked in Japanese military brothels in the 1930s and '40s. Many victims say they were forced to work as sex slaves by military authorities and were held against their will.

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, who is also president of the LDP, sparked a controversy earlier this year by saying there is no evidence women were coerced.

Since then, he has repeatedly distanced himself from the comment.

Abe, who was previously affiliated with the group but hasn’t attended any of its meetings for about two years, had no immediate response to the claims.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/19/asia/AS-GEN-Japan-Rape-of-Nanking.php

I particularly like the reference to going back to primary sources. What sources? Japan lost, and intentionally destroyed, an awful lot of records related to China and other misdeeds 1931 - 45. If they used Chinese sources I would have expected a different result. What a joke!

In the interests of balance, Japan is a much more diverse society than it was even thirty years ago, let alone before, during and shortly after the war. There is knowledge of Japan’s misdeeds and opposition to resurgent militarists and historical revisionists, and the opportunity for public debate, which was not the case before WWII. For example

Statement on the Textbooks Edited by the Japanese Society for Textbook Reform

To achieve peace in the 21st century by making full use of the Constitution, we have launched a campaign to observe the year 2001 as “Women’s Year of the Constitution” under the slogan of “Let Article 9 Play Its Role in the 21st Century.”

Now that the call for peaceful settlement of international disputes is becoming a major trend in Asia and the world, the value of the Japanese Constitution that declares renunciation of war and negates the maintenance of war potential as well as the right of belligerency is greater than ever. However, the Japanese government recently approved for use in junior high school a history textbook edited by the Japanese Society for History Textbook Reform, which contradicts the Constitution and the Fundamental Law on Education; the textbook glorifies Japan’s war of aggression and colonial rule over Asian countries and makes no reference to the former “military comfort women” problem, a violation of women’s human rights. This has become a diplomatic issue. We can never accept such a textbook to be used in school. In vehement protest against the “Society”’s textbook passing the screening, we are developing a movement throughout Japan to prevent the adoption of this textbook by local boards of education.

Many countries, particularly Asian nations, and women’s organizations at home and abroad have expressed protest and concern about the “Society’s” textbook. The World YWCA sent a letter dated June 18 to the Japanese government urging to take sincere attitude in dealing with this problem. The Women’s International Democratic Federation adopted in the Executive Committee held on June 25 and 26 a resolution expressing solidarity with the Japanese women’s movement to protest the approval of the “Society”’s textbook and to block the textbook in question from entering classrooms.

Counter to the protests at home and abroad, the Koizumi Cabinet rejected requests from South Korea and China for amendments to the “Society”’s history textbook. In so doing, it officially recognizes the use of a textbook that distorts Japan’s history in school. Further, it sent a delegation representing ruling parties to South Korea and China to call for their “understanding” of the textbook in question. The government’s rejection of calls for textbook changes has the same root of the Prime Minister Koizumi’s willingness to visit Yasukuni Shrine as a government official and his call for an adverse revision of Article 9 to enable Japan to exercise the right to collective self-defense. All these form a dangerous move. It is only natural that the Japanese government has met a severe criticism not only from South Korea and China, but also from other Asian nations and the rest of the world.

What Japan must do is to educate children based on truth and justice, upholding the principle of the Constitution that pledges Japan will never go to war again based on the reflection on Japan’s war of aggression against and colonial rule over Asian nations. We will carry forward the movement to prevent the “Society”’s textbook to be selected by local boards of education throughout Japan on the movement. We also emphatically protest the Koizumi Cabinet, which intends to sever the ties between Japan and Asian nations by making Japan “a country that can wage war” again. We will work to broaden solidarity with many organizations and individuals wishing for peace at home and abroad, so that Japan will make full use of Article 9 to become a peaceful nation.
July 18, 2001
Liaison Committee for “The 2001 Women’s Year of Constitution” Campaign
My bold
http://www10.plala.or.jp/antiatom/html/e/eWC/e01wc/Intl/e01INTL-Horie.html

Thanks for the material…
Oh mate what is the reason of your patalogical hate to the Japanes?
What is bother you ?
The fact that the official japane man who call the nuclear slaughter of the handreds thousands as “saving Japane lives” and territory from the soviet invasion - this madman should be banned immediatelly at least from the honour of surrvived victims of Hirosima.
The suicide man who prefer to present the own people as the herd of siucidal maniacs - ( who guilt in all evil in the world and consequentally COULD BE BURNED by napalm, testing by the nukes radiation and demonstrating the terrible effect for the “name of the piece” ).
BTW Rising Sun - thank you for supporting our point with Egorka that the nukes were used to “stop the Soviets in asia” ( i.e. the a-bombing were caused by Cold war political aims ):wink:
This post confirms thet in the august of 1945 the Washingtons thought by the political categories rather then the military.

P.S. thanks for the material , very interesting …

Cheers

I’m doubt the Soviets would steal a much of Japanes territory mateWell may be Hokkaido the other would steal the Americans)?
Why did need those pitifull Japanes islands for the Soviets- the other hand is to move further to the asia.
The USA testing the a-bomb was aimed to stop the Soviet offensive to the rich of resources Asia much more then into Japane.
Sure Japane were essential part of asia- but isolated gfrom the resourses it would be nothing but Zero in military sence.

Meanwhile 100 members of that same ruling party have been beavering away to revise history to show that the Rape of Nanking never happened, because the Japanese weren’t brutal. Presumably their next revelation will be that the Burma Railway was a rest camp for Allied POWs bored with their luxurious existence in Changi. This will be followed by the revelation that Japan gave America one month’s notice that it intended to bomb Pearl Harbor and it’s America’s fault that anyone got hurt there.

Ha Ha hA :wink:
ANd next should be the statement that Zionists invented the Holocaust to capture the world power;)
What insolent japanes bastards;)

We’re not talking about some isolated lunatic Holocaust deniers and their ilk here. These 100 people are in the governing party in Japan. Can you imagine Japanese, and international, reaction if a similar slab of the US Congress or the British Commons published their findings that hardly anyone died in Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Or if even one member of those assemblies published such a view? But Japanese revisionism doesn’t provoke any international outrage, because we’re used to Japan’s absurd deceits and self-deception about its war record and its clever promotion of itself as the victims of a nuclear war crime.

Whom do you call the “deniers ilk” in here RS?
The Japanes does not feruse the Nankin Rape - they ONLY tell about 20 000 of victims , not 200 000 or 300 000.
BTW could you show mw the INDEPENDENT ACCURATE STATISTIC FIGURES of Nankin victims?
I do not wish to justify this slaughter 20 000 - this is CRIME on definition.
But i wish to notice you ONE INTERESTING moment-
When the Goebbels lied about 250 000 of victims of Dresden , we did not need to believe this vercion coz it was the Geobbels propoganda, right;)
We believe the Britains (25 000) who clearly cnow this fact ( althouh there is no any acurate statistic).
But when the Japanes tell about 20 000 of victims n Nankin . And chinese propoganda tells about 300 000 - we according your point need to use the Chinise vertion.
What is this- Dual morale?

Chevan, me old Russian mate.

No offence intended to anyone on this forum.

I think my comment might have got confused in differences between common English usage and strict meaning.

In context, “here” as I used it refers to the subject under discussion rather than the place where it occurs.

“Here” is redundant, but it can also be redundant and an intesifier. One of the many paradoxes in English.

For example, I can say to an audience: “Do you understand what I’m talking about?”

Or, “Do you understand what I’m talking about here?” In this sense ‘here’ just means what I’ve been talking about. It’s unnecessary and redundant.

As an intensifier, I can say to someone “Are you with me?”

Or “Are you with me here” means exactly the same thing. Except that the emphasis on ‘here’, in this usage in perhaps an interrogative fashion, intensifies the original question and requires a greater commitment from the listener.

So, in my post that resulted in your question, I was referring merely to the people making the statements to which I object, not to members of this forum. It wouldn’t have made any difference if I’d left out ‘here’, but in spoken English with intonation and inflection it can make a lot of difference in meaning. I was writing a form of spoken English that gets lost on paper. Which also indicates that, for someone who doesn’t go to too many movies and doesn’t actively watch a lot of TV, I’ve still been corrupted by American English. Where redundancy in pursuit of intensifiers is entrenched.

Mate, I don’t hate anyone.

The Japanese as a people don’t bother me in the least. I’ve met many Japanese and have always found them delightful people. The world could do a lot worse than take them as a model for individual behaviour.

What bothers me about some Japanese is the mentality and, worse, the actions it inspires as outlined in my earlier posts where the modern version of the militarists and nationalists and racial supremacists, who took Japan to war from 1931, employed for several decades after the war exactly the same educational and censorship policies that perverted Japanese thinking and national attitudes before and during the war. And without which they would not have been nuked.

If you want to see just how important controlling the education system was in Japan’s road to war, and in creating and maintaining the whole brutal apparatus of Japan’s military dominated imperial government, read the late Professor Subaro Ienaga’s Japan’s Last War: World War II and the Japanese 1931-45. Here is his nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize. http://vcn.bc.ca/alpha/ienaga/letter.htm His work earned him unremitting attacks, including threats to his life, from the Japanese right.

Ienaga should be a national, and international, hero. Instead, there are significant and powerful forces in Japan which are determined to whitewash Japan’s real past as exposed by Ienaga and others in Japan and well known outside it. They prefer to conceal Japan’s wartime activities and, ridiculously, present Japan as the poor victim of war crimes of which the greatest example is being nuked. While pretending that Japan never did anything nasty. Among millions of others with real experience of Japan’s war, the Australian troops who found their mates’ bodies partially eaten by Japanese and tortured and mutilated in all sorts of ways, common to the Japanese, within a few hours of capture have a different view. As do their descendants. My admiration for Ienaga and other rational and courageous Japanese like him is boundless. My contempt for the militarist revisionists is also boundless, not least because they keep alive the flame which led Japan to war and which could lead it to war again.

Asian concepts of time, struggle and war are very different to Western and European concepts. A perfect example is the inability of Americans, and other Westerners, to sustain for more than a few years any largish war they aren’t winning convincingly, as in Vietnam and Iraq. Contrast the American attitude to Vietnam, where the Americans were seriously engaged for only six or seven years, with the North Vietnamese engagement from 1945 (and earlier) to 1975. Where this is relevant to post-war Japan is that it was very common for Japanese troops after the surrender to tell Allied POW’s that they might have won so far, but it was just a temporary interruption in a hundred years’ war (off the top of my head, I think you’ll find this in Russell Braddon’s The Naked Island, among many other books). Those comments reflected a range of things which aren’t present in mainstream Japan today. But I’m not sure they’re not present in the thinking of the successors to Japan’s imperial military glories who, among other things, honour the soldiers we regard as war criminals and want to whitewash their own history, and show a disturbing tendency to want to go back to the old ways.

The Japanese people as a whole were not responsible for the war in the sense that people in a democracy might be, although even in the most participatory democracy nearly half the people, or a smaller proportion being half the voters, are opposed to the current government. The Japanese people as a whole did not elect the people who ran the increasingly military and fascist state which took them to war. There was no way they could remove or challenge them effectively. On the whole the Japanese people still did not question or challenge the militarists or their increasingly aggressive actions, nor did it occur to them to do so. Instead, they cheered the militarists on from the moment they began their expansion in China. That was in part a consequence of the control exercised by the militarists etc through the education system, censorship, political repression, secret police and so on, combined with the features of Asian and especially Japanese society which produce much greater social and political conformity than do Western societies with their opposing individualistic traditions. But it was also in part a celebration of Japan’s military might and prowess, which most people in all winning nations enjoy, which confirmed Japan’s racial supremacy over the Chinese they held in contempt. In turn this arrogance was transferred to the Americans and the European colonialists, and colonists, in Asia. With rather different results, which some Japanese still cannot accept as it undermines their belief that Japan deserved to win the war and, to the extent that it didn’t, it was still a just and glorious war. Just like the Allies believe about their part in the same war, except they limit their belief to it being a necessary but just war in response to Japanese aggression.

In fairness to the Japanese people, the post-war corruption of education about the war was in part the fault of the Americans who imposed strict censorship, including on school texts, to try to avoid predictable problems with resurgent militarism etc. But, as usual, when confronted with a choice between dealing justice to those who committed outrageous crimes during WWII and using them as bulwarks against communism, America and Britain lost interest in prosecuting war crimes towards the end of the 1940‘s (Australia didn‘t). This allowed some serious war criminals to run Japan. For example, the father in law of the current Japanese Prime Minister was Prime Minister 1957/8-60 and feted by the Americans who even secretly funded his election campaigns. This is like Albert Speer becoming Chancellor of West Germany at the same time and being feted and funded by the Americans. This forgiving American and British attitude towards Japanese war criminals and Japan’s war history also allowed the old regime to continue in a modified form in all organs of government, including the Ministry of Education which then employed the textbook censorship policies introduced by the Americans (which weren’t very different to the pre-war Japanese version, except for content) to promote a sanitised and distorted version of their war history.

All nations sanitise and distort their war, and other, histories to some extent. All nations have a different view of other nations’ versions of their respective histories. All nations have elements of historical denial and delusion about their past. But until some significant changes were forced as a result of Ienaga’s pioneering work, Japan made a science and an art out of sanitising and distorting its war history to the point that it bore no relation to what actually happened. And so generations of post-war Japanese were infected with a view of their history, and beliefs about how they were mistreated by the Allies by being nuked and firebombed and so on, without any knowledge of the circumstances which really led to these events. About which no average civilian in Japan knew much or anything 1931-45 as victories were trumpeted and defeats concealed.

My problem with elements in Japan, as distinct from the Japanese people as whole, is that they present Japan as a modern democracy which has renounced its pre-war roots and the medieval elements of its society and government while strenuously doing all they can to honour and revive the bad elements of their past.

Why do the things I mentioned in earlier posts still occur at the levels of its national government and involve such large numbers of national politicians? How can, for example, such a supposedly modern society still maintain a class of untouchables, the buraku or burakumin, which, like its war history, is carefully ignored by much of Japan? It’s a mistake to think that Japan has made a full transition to the modern world as exemplified by Western thought and practice (regardless of whether or not that is the ideal political or social condition). The bulk of Japan’s people probably have made that transition, more or less, but there is still a solid old guard that wants to return to imperial glories and racial supremacist ideas by manipulating the national mind to re-create a Japan that existed, and yet in their distorted histories never existed, from 1931 onwards. Why would it want to do that when the war is in the past and Japan has renounced war in its constitution?

(Anyone who wants to come in here on how America has been trying to get Japan to renounce the no-war provision in Japan’s constitution and get involved in wars since the early 1950’s is welcome. I happen to think that if the consequence of being nuked was to make Japan a resolutely non-war country, then every life lost in those events wasn’t totally wasted and it’s a pity that a lot more countries weren’t nuked.)

Just as an aside, if only to antagonise Egorka who takes things more literally than you :smiley: and who needs something to get his teeth into after recently bemoaning the lack of debate on the forum ;), if the Russians had been content to confine their 1917 revolution to Russia instead of going into the export market with the Comintern, then the fascists in Germany, Italy, Japan and their enthusiastic and powerful supporters in America, Britain, France and elsewhere might never have been united by that common enemy. Or we could go back further and blame the British for letting Marx in to write Das Kapital. Bloody British! It’s always their fault! :slight_smile:

Oh thanks mate for the Australian-English lesson:D
There is nobody take care for my English befor :wink:

Cheers.

Arent the Allies partially responsible for Japans stance on their past today? I mean we occupied them for a good few years as we did Germany and if we could make the Germans see the error of their ways, why didnt we do the same for Japan?

I think one way to have done this was to have tried the Emperor as the God of the state for the crimes of the whole of Japan. If he admitted the atrocities etc then, they wouldnt be able to whitewash over them now.

It seems to me that while we did the right things to end the war in the east, we didnt do the right things afterward. And I dont have any reasons why we didnt?

I think that the allies, conscious of how Germany was treated after WW1 and how that resulted in the rise of the Nazis, didn’t want to go the same route. So, instead of blaming, it was about making things right. Then again, I could be wrong.

As we mull over the morality of the A bombs being droped on Japan, I heard a report, recenly that Mao was not agonst an atomic war, believing that much of the Asian continent would not be targeted and that the Chinese population was larg enough to absorb losses. He pointed out that it would be worth the losses to be rid of Capitalism. Now, that’s what I consider an interesting perspective. Fortunately, he did not have the means of prosecuting an atomic war, but what if he had hadthe means, it makes this discussion somewhat superfluous?

The problem stems from two main, among many, factors.

First, MacArthur as an old Asia hand understood the significance of the Emperor and believed it was necessary to keep him on the throne to unify Japan under the new Allied regime. The fear was that if the Emperor was deposed it would cause unmanageable problems in occupied Japan. Whether that is correct we’ll never know.

Second, as a consequence of the first factor, the regime, although not necessarily the same people, which led Japan to war remained in power, from the top down. It’s similar to the Allies occupying Germany but leaving the Nazi administration in place under Allied direction.

So we ended up with the Nazis and Nazi ideology being obliterated in Germany but elements of the equivalent regime and its different ideology in Japan being left in positions to resume power once the occupation ended. Which is exactly what happened.

In a nutshell, the Allies finished the job in Germany, but not in Japan.

R.S. could there have been a backlash from trying the Emperor i.e. the creation of resistance groups etc.?

That was exactly one fear MacArthur had, and probably his major military fear: Kamikaze Japanese equivalents to Nazi werewolfs etc being generated by destroying their god emperor who was the divine essence of Japan and its people.

There was also the problem that the Japanese army had a long tradition of going off on its own frolics from 1931 onwards and, despite Japan being beaten, there was still plenty of military capacity to make even a negotiated occupation something that would make Iraq now look like a holiday camp.

Not to mention the civilian population being wound up to fight to the death with sticks and so on.

Another fear was that, by losing Japanese co-operation at every level of bureaucracy and society by dethroning the emperor, the Allies would be unable to govern Japan. It was a different issue to Germany where, although the languages of the occupied and occupier were different, there was a more or less common heritage which enabled the Allies to govern more or less independently, if it came to that.

On a historical evolution basis I think Mac got it badly wrong. So I’ll go into a historical stream of consciousness here to try to put it in perspective.

There was no continuous imperial line ruling Japan back to the mythical Jimmu who was the first human embodiment of divine imperial rule going back over 2,500 years from 1945. The divine emperor in 1945 was a recent creation of the military, among others.

Until the Meijii Restoration (i.e restoring imperial rule) in 1868 the emperors had had no real power for many centuries when the shoguns ruled Japan. There’s a useful potted history here. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/emperor.htm On some immediate aspects leading to the Restoration http://www.hku.hk/history/nakasendo/1860spol.htm

The critical point was 1889 when, in response to growing demands for democracy in Japan from groups like the People’s Rights Movement, a constitution was imposed from above by reactionary elements of the privileged classes which cemented the emperor’s position and, fatally, also that of the military as beyond democratic or elected government control.

One of the central problems in Japan’s constitutional evolution from that point was that an army minister ended up being a necessary member of any government, with the result that by withdrawing or refusing to nominate a minister the army could determine whether a government fell or could be formed. The army was able to operate free of any elected government control, as it did repeatedly in China and at times in Japan from 1931 onwards. When it suited the army it extolled the divine imperial line, but in reality senior and junior army officers at times ignored the emperor when his wishes didn’t suit them. These clowns were about as loyal to their crown as Guy Fawkes.

Conversely, to increase control of the population, during Japan’s war 1931-45 the military - fascist dominated governments increasingly promoted the emperor’s divine heritage and power to push him forward as the source of their authority and the need for his (i.e their) orders to be followed blindly. Just Hitler / Nazi “orders are orders” in another culture, really, except Hitler lacked a divine heritage but it was still a personality cult. The difference is that Hitler was in full control while the emperor had only a limited degree of control, not unlike the British monarch, which was more in the nature of a veto of government proposals than initiating policy and actions.

The emperor that Mac thought had to be preserved was in large measure the creation of the militarists and fascists, and a necessary element of their regime, not a true inheritor of Japan’s imperial tradition.

This produced the paradox that, to prevent Japan undermining the occupation by guerilla warfare etc by renegade militarist - fascist elements, Mac preserved and cemented for the future the militarist-fascist elements of the regime which America set out to destroy from 7 December 1941. As it turned out this was a great piece of luck because the anti-communist militarist - fascist elements dovetailed nicely with American policy aims in the region from the late 1940’s.

Maybe Mac took a pragmatic course that ensured that the occupation would move fairly smoothly. It has to be remembered that by August 1945 Churchill wasn’t too interested in Japan as he was more worried about reviving Britain after the war, while war weariness was an issue in America to a lesser extent.

Personally, I think the Allies should have bitten the bullet and crushed Japan, including trying Hirohito. He mightn’t have had the power of Hitler but he didn’t use his veto power to resist the militarists and stop Japan getting into China and subsequent events. He was right up to his scrawny little neck in the thrust if not always the details of Japan’s aggression. He comes out in much history as the poor little pawn of the militarists who courageously stood up for his people at the end, but if the little turd had really had their interests at heart he would have stopped Japan’s military expansion long before 1945. He was only converted to a different view when he realised that the Yanks might wipe his people off the face of the earth. Happy to be a winner, but not a loser.

If the Allies had crushed Japan we wouldn’t have had the elements of the old regime, starting with Hirohito, preserved to rise in a different form and infect subsequent generations with their bullshit view of Japan’s war history.

This contradicts the “poor bloody victims of firebombing and atom bombs” view successfully promulgated by Japan and the CND and hippies and many well-intentioned and rational people, but the Japanese people got off lightly at the end of the war. Compare what happened in Germany and Italy when the Allies invaded. Japan copped some hugely destructive air raids in population terms and some slaughter, all self-induced, on Saipan and Okinawa, but it never had the enemy fight its way across its homeland like Germany and Italy did, with all the damage and casualties that entails.

Sure, the Japanese were short of food and their economy was on its knees by the end of the war, but so what? They weren’t living on the roads for months like a lot of people in Europe, and especially Germany in the last few months of Germany‘s war, trying to escape invading armies and live on frozen grass.

Instead of whingeing about reaping what they sowed, and reaping it very lightly, the Japanese should be bloody grateful that the Allies didn’t run their occupation of Japan the way Japan ran its occupation of conquered territories.

The only reason that Japan avoided war on its home islands was because the Allies relented and let Japan keep its emperor in the surrender terms. I would have shot the little bastard, and dismantled the whole evil apparatus that depended upon him for its existence and legitimacy. Just like the Allies did with the Nazis.

Thank You for that - very interesting.

I would suppose that apart from the injustice of certain elements getting away with it, Japan has turned out pretty much the way the US/MaCarthur would have wanted - one less country to worry about?

I was watching a docu regarding the ‘Comfort Girls’ which was very annoying, particularly as they interviewed former Japanese soldiers that had made use of them, and they were now saying how much they had respected these girls. Not the same story as the girls themselves told. Some of these former Comfort Girls confronted Japanese tourists, many of them young females, and explained the situation to them. The Japanese women broke sown as they heard about the atrocities commited against the girls.

http://www.abc.net.au/austory/transcripts/s351798.htm