Swiss say: "No more minarets!"

Don’t know about the historical and other intepretations in this article, but it presents one view supporting the Swiss vote.

Switzerland draws the line

* MELANIE PHILLIPS
* From: The Australian
* December 05, 2009 12:00AM

WELL, who would have thought the Swiss had it in them? The country that until now was known for nothing more exciting than banking, cheese and cuckoo clocks has secured its place in history by becoming the first in Europe to say to Islam: “thus far and no further”.

In a decision so controversial within Switzerland that it may be overturned, 57.5 per cent voted in a referendum backed by the ultra-conservative Swiss People’s Party to ban the construction of any new minarets on mosques.

Along with much of Europe, the reaction within Britain, where the government is pursuing a policy of engagement rather than confrontation to deal with its major problem of Islamic extremism, has been widespread horror.

After all, there are only four minarets in Switzerland, where the 5 per cent of the population who are Muslims are mainly liberally-minded Bosnians, Kosovo Albanians and Turks and who keep a low profile. The ban is said to be illiberal, discriminatory and infringing the rights of Muslims to religious worship. Nevertheless, opinion is not speaking with one voice. In Britain as in Switzerland , feminists and some liberals have backed the ban because they are deeply anxious the encroachment of Islam within Europe will destroy women’s rights.

And France’s President Nicolas Sarkozy and Germany’s Chancellor Angela Merkel have both acknowledged that the Swiss vote reflects growing fears within Europe that the continent is being steadily Islamised.

This fissure in European opinion suggests the issue is rather more complex than the superficial consternation might suggest. The stock liberal view is that the state has no business telling a religious community how to construct its houses of prayer. And in general this is absolutely right.

But liberal societies also hold that minorities must not threaten or coerce the majority culture. If that precept is followed, then just like any other minority, Muslims should certainly be welcome to practise their faith. And many do so in just such a way.

The problem is that while many such Muslims sign up to democracy, human rights and the separation of religion and state, the Islamists who dominate the Muslim world are pushing the agenda of Islamising the west. And the minaret is a symbol of that religious aggression. The suggestion that banning minarets attacks Muslim rights to religious observance could not be farther from the truth. For the minaret has no religious significance in Islam.

To Western eyes, it may seem nothing other than an architectural feature. But historically it has served as a symbol of Islamic political power and aspiration.

It is designed to help impose Islam on the surrounding society. As a powerful symbol of Islamic dominance, it is often constructed to be higher than other religious buildings specifically to send the message both to Muslims and those of other faiths and none that Islam is supreme.

That is why Turkish premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan described minarets as the “bayonets of the faith”. They are political instruments of religious domination. And that is what the Swiss have understood as a threat to their society.

For liberals, any issue taken up by a party they brand the “far Right” is automatically made toxic by such association. But it is the issue that matters, not who is taking sides over it.

The West is so bamboozled by multiculturalism, the doctrine that all cultures must be held to have equal value and any differentiation is prejudice, that it cannot see the destructive absurdity of this fuss.

For while it is having a fit of the vapours over the so-called threat to religious freedom represented by the minaret ban, it is silent over the fact that in Islamic states such as Saudi Arabia there is no freedom of worship, no churches are allowed to be built at all and apostates from Islam are punished by death.

Islamism is encroaching in Europe and the West because liberals are so paralysed by their own nostrums they cannot defend their own culture – a vulnerability the Islamists are exploiting to the hilt. The Western response to the ban is characterised by fear of the Muslim reaction to it – thus demonstrating to the Islamists once again that terror and intimidation work.

Islamists themselves have given the game away. Both Tariq Ramadan and the Muslim Council of Britain have said that mosques and minarets in European cities “are manifestations of the proudly indigenous nature of Islam in Europe”. But Islam is not indigenous in Europe. The last attempt by the Islamic world to conquer Europe was repulsed at the gates of Vienna in 1683.

It is possible that the Swiss vote will now give courage to other European countries to stop the march of political Islam – and that future generations will talk of the jihad being repulsed at the gates of Geneva. But then again, Europe’s own death-wish may be just too strong.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/switzerland-draws-the-line/story-e6frg6ux-1225807165273

  • MELANIE PHILLIPS
  • From: The Australian

    After all, there are only four minarets in Switzerland, where the 5 per cent of the population who are Muslims are mainly liberally-minded Bosnians, Kosovo Albanians and Turks and who keep a low profile. The ban is said to be illiberal, discriminatory and infringing the rights of Muslims to religious worship. Nevertheless, opinion is not speaking with one voice. In Britain as in Switzerland , feminists and some liberals have backed the ban because they are deeply anxious the encroachment of Islam within Europe will destroy women’s rights.

Nothing but prejudice born of fear and ignorance…

I want to hallmark the last post by 32Bravo, at list somebody see the matter very clearly.:rolleyes:

Why, thank you, PK.

Actually, it’s always been that way with me. Just haven’t bothered to express it before. :lol:

I am glad to see my Country represented, and discussed here as well. As for Nickdfresh, you are so far out of line here.
We voted yes for the Ban because we dont like the slow Islamification of Europe, and all the “wishes” and “requests” that these people bring with them. You obviously have no idea about the Problems this is causing in Europe, give them a finger, and they will have your Arm. We are a Cathloic country, anyone is welcome, if they are prepared to integrate themselves, we have strickt rules on that, not like in the USA where Mexicans and Latinos who live there for decades cant even speak the language. Same thing is happening in the UK, Europe is being taken over by these people, and their plans are quite clear… as Turkish Prime minister said yesterday, “Our Minaretts are our Spears/Lances, and our Mosks are our Soldiers barracks.”

Now if that is not clear enough for you.

If any other country in Europe actually LET their people vote, they would ALL vote the same us we did. But unfortunately the EU is a dictatorship, and not a pure Democracy like we are.

I voted YES for the ban, and i am PROUD, not fearful or any paranoid of towel and sheet wearing people.

I have the right to my opinion, just like you have the right to register in this forum to solely to comment in this thread, I presume…

We voted yes for the Ban because we dont like the slow Islamification of Europe, and all the “wishes” and “requests” that these people bring with them. You obviously have no idea about the Problems this is causing in Europe, give them a finger, and they will have your Arm. We are a Cathloic country, anyone is welcome, if they are prepared to integrate themselves, we have strickt rules on that,

Um, I have some idea of the “problems” of Europe, I’ve just never heard much about violent incidents in Switzerland regarding Muslims from largely secular, progressive areas of Bosnia nor Kosovo creating violent incidents. Of course there are problems of violence with Middle Easterners who refuse to integrate. Painting them all with a wide swath of a brush, are we? We could pretty clearly substitute “Jewish bankers” for Muslims in your rhetoric and you’d have the same paranoid, conspiratorial garbage that “you-know-who” used a few years back. You also don’t need to lecture me on your “European problems,” because I reside in a city called Buffalo, NY, I live not 15 kilometers from a rather proportionally large emigre settlement of Yemenis residing in Lackawanna, NY. You know, the country that Osama Bin Laden’s family came to Saudi Arabia from? They’ve been largely peaceful and have indeed “integrated” themselves into the US way of life with few problems, no violence, and have generally been overall good citizens for the over 30 years they’ve been coming here. There was of course the “Lackawanna Six” (pseudo-)terrorist cell that was rousted after the 9/11 attacks. But of course, they have no real planning, training, nor weapons to conduct any sort of terrorist actions.

The problem with much of Europe and Muslims is that you do not “integrate” them politically, nor essentially force them to adapt to your political institutions and effectively allow them to wall themselves off into mini-ghettos of transplanted Arabic society. But this doesn’t even seem relevant to the situation in Switzerland, as they’re mostly European-ized, secular Muslims apparently, which sort of does make you seem paranoid…

The United States, with its “melting-pot” mentality, does methodically enforce the political and civil integration of foreign cultures, which is why we do in fact have very large expatriated Muslim communities spanning the United States from New Jersey to California. Ones that virtually have taken over regions such as parts of the Detroit, Michigan area. Yet, we have had almost no domestic terrorist incidents residing from such communities in the past 40 years or so. It’s just a fundamental construct of, and one of the highlights of, American culture with strictly (and rightly) forbades any sort of collusion between church and state and sort of heads off many of these problems, and also forces legal immigrants to learn the language and cultural norms, or sends them the fuck out…

…not like in the USA where Mexicans and Latinos who live there for decades cant even speak the language.

An interesting statement from someone from a trilingual society, I must say. However, aren’t your immigrants already “legal?” Unfortunately, we don’t have a “guest-worker” policy which would go a long way towards eliminating illegal immigration by channeling them into a program where things can be controlled and monitored. Unfortunately, no one wants to really own up to why illegal immigration happens in the states aside from having a huge border essentially impossible to close without destroying economies…

Same thing is happening in the UK, Europe is being taken over by these people, and their plans are quite clear… as Turkish Prime minister said yesterday, “Our Minaretts are our Spears/Lances, and our Mosks are our Soldiers barracks.”

“Their plan?” Really? So all Muslims are part of a secret, underground plot to destroy Catholic Swiss white people? BTW, can you actually link me to an actual trusted source for this quote? It seems to me that Turkey is rather secularized, part of NATO, and has a long tradition of rejecting Islamic culture in favor of the West…

Now if that is not clear enough for you.

It’s not. It just sounds ridiculous and stupid, quite frankly…

If any other country in Europe actually LET their people vote, they would ALL vote the same us we did. But unfortunately the EU is a dictatorship, and not a pure Democracy like we are.

I’ve heard of this concept, it’s called the “tyranny of democracy”. It’s nice you all have a vote, and it’s also a convenient way to prevent any real dissenting voice…

I voted YES for the ban, and i am PROUD, not fearful or any paranoid of towel and sheet wearing people.

You could have fooled me…

When did i join? and when was the Vote ? :confused: i wont even bother about the rest…political yakidy yak.

You might have heard about the Muslim father here in the Phoenix, Arizona, area who ran his car over his daughter and her boyfriend’s mother because the daughter was ‘going Western.’ The young woman subsequently died. They termed it an ‘honor killing.’ Doubtless, his lawyer will argue that this is their way of life. Muslims, by and large, unfortunately, aren’t integrating into this country. They want to enjoy constitutionally protected rights, and keep Sharia at the same time. For myself, even as a Christian, I believe the Constitution trumps everything. Give them time, and ‘progressives’ (read, Marxist-oriented left-wingers) will demand that Sharia law be recognized.

I didn’t hear about that particular case and it’s tragic and the “father” is an asshole. But, I think I also heard of a case of a “Christian” leader of a group of Mormon splinters that believed not only in polygamy, but that middle-aged men had the right to fuck pre and early teen girls.

So, do we judge everyone by isolated, extreme cases now?

Doubtless, his lawyer will argue that this is their way of life.

Who gives a shit what his lawyer says? I’m pretty sure the guy I’m talking about had a lawyer that pretty much said the same thing. If he’s guilty, he’ll hang…

Muslims, by and large, unfortunately, aren’t integrating into this country. They want to enjoy constitutionally protected rights, and keep Sharia at the same time.

They can keep “Sharia” to the extent it doesn’t infringe on other laws. If nut job women want to wear a veil, that’s fine with me. But I’m pretty sure there’s almost nothing written in the Koran about it specifically, and a lot of “Sharia” law was actually pre-Islamic middle eastern culture creeping into the religion, just like Rome creeped into Roman Catholicism…

And they actually have been and are “integrating” into this country. There are numerous studies on it and you can contrast the number of incidents of violence between the US and in France, where in the ghettos of Paris they have a real problem with unemployed, disenfranchised radical Muslim men battling with police and attacking and raping girls that don’t wear veils. That sort of thing doesn’t happen here on any real scale, and apart from isolated incidents which pale in comparison with other crime problems–such as mass shootings, gangs, drugs, rapes, etc.—are just not that prevalent.

Incidentally, I’ve actually met “them,” and sometimes they’re actually real people that don’t give much of a fuck about their birth religion, are far more concerned with being “metrosexual” well-dressed ladies men, or are even highly educated very pleasant people that just want to earn a living and not be bothered. Hard to believe, I know. But they might not actually be these “Stepford Wives” or “Manchurian Candidates” pre-programmed to detonate themselves as suicide bombers when their evil sultan handlers decide to unleash them on us with a secret Koran code word. :rolleyes:

For myself, even as a Christian, I believe the Constitution trumps everything.

Well we agree on something. However, there are a whole host of laws and statutes that govern everyday life and are meant to provide certain protections religious extremist fuckwits…

Give them time, and ‘progressives’ (read, Marxist-oriented left-wingers) will demand that Sharia law be recognized.

Yeah, because it’s not like those “progressives” weren’t some of the first ones to denounce the Taliban in Afghanistan over their treatment of women in the 1990s. I’m also pretty sure such people tend to back the Iranian opposition to dictator Ah’my’dinnner’jacket and condemn the election he stole in the name of radical Islamic thought to preserve the conservative “republic.” And I’m pretty sure it was “Marxist-oriented left-wingers” that were fighting the mujaheddin in Afghanistan (more specifically the Soviets and their Afghan allies, against the religious extremists we were tacitly supporting after allowing our “Islamic” allies in Saudi Arabia to hijack the resistance by funding the most hardline elements like—oh, Bin Laden!) and I’m pretty sure Marxist thought is generally atheistic and generally sees things in terms of class and has little regard for non-moralistic religious prohibitions. And I don’t think I’ve fuckwell heard of anyone demanding Sharia law in this country…

I would refer you to the statement of General Sir Charles Napier on Suttee…

Your country’s version of pure democracy, is based on a tiny country with a tiny population.

Representative democracy works better because not every man-in-the-street has the time to concentrate on the socio-economic climate to best understand what the issues are that are being voted on and, consequently, know which is the better way to vote, other than making a decision based on prejudice and/or the wrong gut instinct.

Furthermore, even in the purest of democracies (if there is any such beast), there are those that will lobby and seek to influence the electorate to their own ends - so what’s the big deal with your pompous set up?

I voted YES for the ban, and i am PROUD, not fearful or any paranoid of towel and sheet wearing people.

I doubt that many of the people you voted against actually wear towels and sheets as you imply, but that is probably a further example of your ignorance.

The mainline LDS church long ago disavowed polygamy, although it is still practiced in Colorado City, formerly Short Creek, by a splinter group. As far as that goes, so-called ‘Baptists’ (and I am a Southern Baptist) have picketed fallen troops’ funerals because they think it’s God’s judgment on us because we permit homosexuality.

In both cases–Mormons and Baptists (and other denominations) have quickly denounced these dingbats. I don’t remember a groundwell among U.S. Muslims protesting the Twin Towers.

By the way, the ‘honor killing’ thing would have to be second-degree murder, unless the county attorney can prove it was planned.

Jon Stewart on The Daily Show, (an American mock-news show on Comedy Central):

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-december-3-2009/oliver-s-travels---switzerland

I don’t understand why you speak of Swiss as a people that has time sicne it is small, while others don’t. Switzerland has many tiny subcultures with a lot of local decisive power. Such fractal policy can be implemented anywhere.

Furthermore, even in the purest of democracies (if there is any such beast), there are those that will lobby and seek to influence the electorate to their own ends - so what’s the big deal with your pompous set up?

I think you have to look at it as a system with possibilities.
The Swiss can use direct democracy.

The way you put it here opens the path to neglect and anti-democracy even representative.

I doubt that many of the people you voted against actually wear towels and sheets as you imply, but that is probably a further example of your ignorance.

Still, the vote was about minarets, not people.
You can have an interpretation, but an interpretation is personal.

for the record: a recent “poll” in Belgium results in 60% against minarets.
U C ? nothing Swiss about it. It’s just that in Switzerland they actually “vote” for it.

Will Europeans turn into an agreement to build minarets in 50 years? probably.
The Swiss are becoming more and more pro euro every year.

I guess not!

Time will tell.

The Parthenon started out as a central bank; became a Christian church in the 6th century; then a mosque under the Ottomans in the 15th century with a minaret; and lost the minaret when the Greeks got independence in the 19th century.

Of course, the Parthenon was largely destroyed by the Venetians in the 17th century, so the moral is clearly this: Minarets may come and go, but the Venetians will really bugger up your monuments.

From which it follows that the Swiss should get stuck into Venice. Which, after all, their mercenaries (probably the most fearsome in Europe at the time) did exactly that early in the 16th century. As well as later fighting on the Venetian side in the same series of wars.

Much later, having discovered the profitability of being neutral and doing clever things like hanging on to the money deposited by Jews exterminated by Hitler, the Swiss gave up fighting and just profited from other people doing it.

Personally, I’d be more worried about the untrustworthy Swiss getting their grasping, grubby little fingers into my country than a minaret popping up.

Would that be a Swiss-Roll?

Swiss banks and Venice - sounds like Casino Royale!

Or a sinking fund?

My problems with Islam in general are the following:

  1. Any religion that, in its holy book(s), orders people who resign of the religion to be killed, should not be tolerated.

  2. Any religion that, in its holy book(s), includes laws and punishments that are incompatible with not only national laws but International Human Rights, as can be found aplenty in the Sharia, should not be tolerated.

  3. Any religion that, in its holy book(s) declares non-Muslims either second-rate humans (dhimnis) or denies their right to exist (non-Christian/non-Jews), should not be tolerated. Freedom of Religion is not compatible with Islam, as it is written in their book.

  4. Islam is more than just a religion. It is an entire system of life, including religion, politics, culture and society. It regulates the role of women within the society, it provides the judiciary and is very restrictive even with regards to cuisine. As long as Muslim supermarket employees decline to touch anything pig-related in their customer service, as is the case in Britain, something is wrong.

  5. Islam today is very much like the Catholic Church in the middle Ages. Why should enlightened Europeans tolerate that?

  6. This might just be me, but as long as Muslims feel closer to foreign Muslim than to their own non-Muslim countrymen, I dislike them. As long as German Muslims sooner support the Taliban than the German soldiers standing there, I despise them. As long as the Central Committee for Muslims does not clearly speak out against Islamist Extremism, I can only laugh bitterly when they claim that Islam is - or should be - a respectable part of Germany.

Lastly, I don’t care if 90% of Muslims are friendly moderates. As long as they allow themselves to be ruled and controlled by the 10% of Extremists, Islam is incompatible with European society.
What matters is not the theory, but the reality (as the Communist had already found out the hard way).
I’m sure the Russian soldier felt a lot better knowing that the German soldier that was about to execute him was not a Nazi, but only a moderate in fear of his family…:neutral: