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And Major, I seroiusly suggest we should have a “Weird naxi myth” thread to bring it all to light and laugh or cry. You seem to be into the stuff, so you could start with fx. Neu SchwabenlandI thnk i will once Im back from vacation.
I hope you will 
And we have the Librarian to pull us back down to earth if we start believing it:mrgreen:
(And I´d like to hear hear his comment on the supposed joint venture German-Japanese wartime mission to Mars:mrgreen:)
I guess so. What do you think about VRIL?
I think a UFO put an “implant” in your arse,’ most likely resembling your head!
yes, the nazi-got-haunebu-from-aliens is crazy but there have been sightings of “foo fighters”. what were they? and there are accounts of planes getting shot down by the foo fighters. Were they some kind of FLAK tracers?
Gentlemen, please! Due to my professional obligations, I was temporarily disabled to make another analytic post about this pretty amusing theme, but temporarily I shall say only that Mr. NickDfresh was absolutely right about that famous Lenticular Re-entry Vehicle.
This truly amazing design started as a high priority project in the early sixties, when the U.S. Air Force began development of a modified flying saucer-like airframe for use as a spaceborne nuclear weapons platform. Dubbed the “Lenticular Re-Entry Vehicle” (LRV) it was intended to be launched atop either of a Saturn-like multi-stage rocket, or one of the nuclear-powered rockets then under development.
Lenticular Re-entry Vehicle
The LRV with its crew of four was to be launched into a 300-nautical-mile-high orbit where it would wait in for several weeks before either launching its nuclear weapons at the Soviet Union/China or returning to earth. Landing would be via controlled re-entry and a glide landing on a dry lakebed.
Although this highly intriguing “Black” project may never have gotten beyond the design stage, there is some physical evidence that prototype vehicles were indeed test-flown in the 1960s.
Original story is available here:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1281221.html
And please, don’t worry – that Flügelrad analyses will be here in next to no time as well! You know, for a valid analyses you really do need some relevant scientific resources. And those resources – alas! - are not on-line available.
Sorry for my pretty late answer, my dear Herr Major, but I was under objective necessity to consult some valid scientific resources. I hope that these technological fragments will be usable for you. 
But, I mean is it possible for a Flugelrad to work? Are the designs plausible? would torque be a problem?
Yes, my dear Major: theoretically, this Flügelrad machine represents an achievable, but in the very same time fairly problematical solution.
Basically, it is a rotary wing aircraft- which means that it has a rotor to provide lift instead of wings, like conventional airplanes. However, unlike a helicopter, this rotor is not powered directly by the engine shaft, but by a so-called jet-stream blown fan - in theory also known as Fan-In-Fuselage Rotary Wing – that practically deflects the jet engine exhaust to gain rotation of the fan, thus actually increasing the net thrust obtained from the diverted flow by using the energy of the exhaust to accelerate a larger mass of air. This on the other side augments thrust by increasing the net propulsive efficiency.
Exhaust gases are turning sort of a ducted fan - the diverted engine exhaust is passed over the rotor blades to spin the complete fan. In this case, you will be able – at least theoretically! - to achieve a so called airflow augmentation ratio of almost three (the lifting thrust will be circa three times bigger than the thrust produced by the jet engines during normal forward flight (more realistic value, however, probably ranges from about 1.3 to perhaps 2.2).
Nevertheless - and as already correctly observed by you - this solution indeed produces vastly unbalanced rotor torque. To avoid produced torque of the rotor, the best solution is to have two of them, rotating in the opposite directions, but in our case this is hardly achievable. Fan is heavy and completely integrated into the main structure, thus being very bulky and unfit for counter-balancing, due to great oscillation masses, and with a continuing alloy thermal stability problems too. The only theoretical advantage in this case is that fan generally tends to reduce the thrust-matching problem, since the engines in this case do not have to be sized to lift the machine by jet thrust alone.
Of course, gyroscopic stabilization is another possibility, but it is inevitability a heavyweight solution, with all negative repercussions toward effective payload, range and structural rigidity.
On the other hand, the transition from vertical to forward flight remains a complete mystery, because thrust-matching problem during transition flight is not clearly resolved. Although vectoring flaps are part of the engine’s exhaust, it is not clear how this solution will be able to turn the engine flow more than 15 degrees for completely different tasks of hovering and flight. Perhaps those fan-winglets are equipped with some kind of a fan-blade pitch adjustment mechanism (although I am not able to see any trace of it!), but in that case completely laminar, non-turbulent, optimized flow of the exhaust gases is not manageable. And as far as I can see potentially usable rotating jet-engine elbow exhausting nozzles are not prefigured as a suitable solution.
Another problem is present in a form of so-called suck-down and fountain-lift air circulation. You see, my dear Herr Major, a VTOL machine in hover is not positioned in the stagnant air. The vertical fan-vortex that supports the aircraft also accelerates the air mass around it. This entrainment exists due to viscosity of the air, and produces a downward flow-field around the aircraft.
This downward flow-field pushes down on the aircraft with a vertical drag force equivalent to a loss of 4-6% of the lift thrust. The magnitude of this “vertical drag” depends largely upon the relative location of the fan and the fuselage. If the completely bulky nacelle is, as in our case, in the centerplane of the machine, thus entrained airflow will exert a significant downward force.
The effect of the ground is another problem. The mass of the air, mixed with exhaust gases, strikes the ground and spreads outward. This increases the entrainment force, and the entrained download, (or suck-down) increases as the ground is approached. The strength of the air-fountain depends upon the exact arrangement of the fan and the shape of the fuselage, but generally round, almost completely planar and additionally circle-shaped fuselage makes it more difficult for the fountain to flow around the fuselage, and it will increase the fountain effect.
Of course, we are faced here with another class of problems as well: with recirculation and hot–gas ingestion. A jet-propelled VTOL machine while hovering near the ground tends to “drink its own bath-water”. The hot exhaust gasses are able to find their way back to the engine inlet, causing significant reduction in thrust. In addition, this recirculated air can include dirt and other abrasive particles that are completely capable to damage or destroy the complete engine. Furthermore, in some cases the dirt kicked up by a hovering aircraft can completely obscure the pilot’s vision.
However, these observations are representing only my theoretical remarks. Therefore, if you like this design, my dear Herr Major – no problem, let it be! After all, disc-shaped machines do have certain undisputable advantages: they can produce higher lift coefficients than other wings and they can be built lighter than conventional thin wings.
Previous designs suffered from very complex structures, but circular wing machines were able to produce some truly amazing achievements. For example, this tiny American machine produced by Dr. E. W. Kay was capable to rise from the ground like a helicopter and then to hurtle through the air at velocities of over 500 knots. Of course, nobody was interested… 
Gyro-disc, 1951
A very high lift coefficients, more useful internal volumes, and an ability to fly very slow were primary motives for some highly intriguing Soviet developments as well:
Discoplan, USSR - 1963.
On the other hand, certain advantages of the circular wings embedded in high supersonic stability and lift even at extreme angles of attack, as well as evenly distributed aircraft mass made these solutions highly desirable for the anticipated soviet supersonic projects, like this one that was publicly presented in 1964.
Hypersonic Liner, USSR - 1964
But that, honorable ladies and gentlemen, is a completely different story…
In the meantime, as always – all the best!
Thanks for the review!
Would this do away with the problems of the flugel rad?
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Without any doubt, my dear Herr Major, previously presented project theoretically will be able to resolve certain problems, although only partially. With a pair of counter-rotating propellers located in the centerline of the aircraft, torque problems surely would be eliminated. However, ducted fans are always heavy and they tend to chop up the aircraft structure.
Additionally, it seems that the increase of the effectual angle of attack will produce an axial airflow disturbance within the fan, with subsequent repercussions toward thrust. But generally speaking – yes, this is definitely much more realistic and considerably more down-to-earth design.
Previous designs suffered from very complex structures, but circular wing machines were able to produce some truly amazing achievements. For example, this tiny American machine produced by Dr. E. W. Kay was capable to rise from the ground like a helicopter and then to hurtle through the air at velocities of over 500 knots. Of course, nobody was interested…
Do you mean that this model machine travelled at over 500kt, or a planned full scale machine was supposed to be doing that?!
I have been studying this subject for many years. The Germans did produce disc aircraft during the war. There is a USAAF file on Joseph Andreas Epp. This man worked on conventionally powered disc aircraft. He has published a book in German titled Die Realitaet der Flugscheiben.
Further, established aviation writer Bill Rose has published a book titled Flying Saucer Aircraft. In it, he names names regarding the disc aircraft built for the USAF by the Canadian A.V. Roe company. There is also a significant mention of the contributions of one Alfred Loedding who worked at Wright Field in T3 (Engineering) and his debriefing of German aviation experts after World War Two. A photograph of him and a model of his Discplane is shown. There is also a photo of Rene Couzinet and his saucer aircraft, built in France.
My research has concluded that such aircraft were built in Germany toward the end of the war. The Hanebau in the above image never existed. It is a modern fake. These aircraft were used in the end to ferry certain high-ranking individuals out of Germany at the end of the war. The propulsion system was radical but was developed from patents in existence at the time. A simple search to locate such patents would reveal the fact that these aircraft went by many names, including ‘circular planform,’ ‘circular wing,’ and ‘annular wing,’ among others.
Their use at the time was limited by various factors. But chief among them was the desire to keep the propulsion system a secret. It would have made conventional power plants that used oil obsolete. Such a disruption was, and still is, unthinkable.
If we pretend its not there, maybe the Allies won’t notice it
But jet propulsion was OK 
Has to be the lamest excuse I’ve ever read.:rolleyes:
Hitler and his cronies were facing armageddon but they couldn’t use this type of propulsion because it didn’t use oil… They didn’t have any oil, a engine of this type would have been the answer to their dreams
Sorry for being late again, my dear Mr. Snebold, but my personal meta-data crawlers had been a little bit overstrung lately. Nevertheless, certain results are available!
Therefore the direct answer to your question is: neither this machine, nor the full – scaled construction, but the second prototype, equipped with innovative (and also mysterious!) micro-jet engines, that was constructed and tested by Dr. Key back there in Glendale, Callifornia, in 1961. Fortunately, full photographic evidence is available:
Remotely controlled Gyro-disc in flight (Phillip J. Klass: UFOs — Identified, Second ed., Random House – New York, 1974, table 4)
There is also a photo of Rene Couzinet and his saucer aircraft, built in France.
With all due respect, honorable Mr. Marcin, and with full appreciation toward truly outstanding work of Mr. Couzinet too, it has to be emphasized that previously mentioned machine (René Couzinet RC 360) represented only a mock-up construction that never lifted the ground. Please, just follow this link:
http://aerostories.free.fr/constructeurs/couzinet/page3.html
On the other hand, it has to be mentioned that another highly respected French constructor - innovative, audacious and gifted Mr. Roland Payen - envisioned certain highly intriguing disc-shaped machines as well:
Payen Pa 61
If we pretend its not there, maybe the Allies won’t notice it.
Good Lord - the Hungarian officers are present there too! :shock:
Oh, boy… I think that my good old colleagues in NAVA – Budapest will have a couple of sleepless nights! Thanks for the tip, my dear Mr. Redcoat!
…there is a difference between filing a patent and being able to build or contruct something… whilst a patent may protect someone who can bring a produc to market initial protects or reserves rightd to an IDEA.
I am sure i and some of my more knowlegable physics types buddys could construct a patent for a interseller starship… doesnt mean to say we could build one next week?
Dont get me wrong a like a bit of luft’46 fantasy and Saucer pR0n… but thats all it is.
I know the USAF etc and AVRO and others have since produced flying wings, disks and other devices… but there are no close encounters of the 3rd kind motherships hanging out in the Black Forest, Area 51 or South Pole.
…those who believe, believe, those who dont, dont!
Only those with a superficial knowledge of history would respond in this manner. The purpose of any business is to make a lot of whatever it is they make and to invest in promising ventures, including in other countries. The oil barons in the United States were wealthy in the 1920s, along with the automobile manufacturers and airplane manufacturers. All of them knew a new war was coming and they had investments in Germany.
In 1967, ITT, which had invested in Focke-Wulf, received $27 million dollars in compensation from the United States “Foreign Claims Settlement Commission.” GM and Ford also received compensation from the US government for damage to plants they owned in Germany during the war. Do you know how many Wehrmacht trucks were built by Ford’s German subsidiary?
In 1928, the 4th largest company in the world was IG Farben and it was the largest chemical company. In 1929, Standard Oil formed a German subsidiary called Standard IG. Standard worked with Farben to develop synthetic rubber called Buna. However, their agreement dissuaded US companies from producing synthetic rubber during the war (the Japanese having cut off access to natural rubber sources in the east). The Germans developed a process for producing oil from coal but Standard was involved with that as well.
Hitler was a manager, so to speak. IG Farben caused considerable problems in the United States during World War I due to the numerous agreements it had with American companies (see Treason’s Peace - IG Farben by Howard Ambruster). In the book, IG Farben, by Richard Sasuly, further evidence is presented about the global reach and damage caused by Farben during World War II:
"By the beginning of 1941 England was enduring the blitz and American public opinion was running strongly in favor of giving aid to the British. But when the British Purchasing Mission tried to buy tetrazine-primed ammunition in the United States, the sale was prevented - by a cartel agreement between the Remington Arms Company (subsidiary of DuPont) and a subsidiary of IG Farben, Rheinische Westfaelische Sprengstoff.
"A Remington Arms Company patent attorney wrote:
" ‘The further sale of Tetrazine Primed Ammunition to the British Purchasing Commission or to the Government of the Union of South Africa or to the Government of Canada is undesirable by reason of our Tetrazene contract with R.W.S.[the IG subsidiary].’ " (Ibid., page 174)
So you see, American interests were primarily protecting American interests, even when our Allies were in trouble. And oil as fuel was not the only interest of chemical companies like Farben. Lubricants, fuel additives to boost performance, chemicals to be used in explosives and ammunition. Plastics as well. As after World War I, hearings were held in the United States to examine and condemn cartel agreements American companies held with IG Farben and other major German firms during the war, and which were still valid after the war ended.
Most people think the war was about the Axis and Allies shooting at each other and that’s all. It was about business, global business. And this business could not be closed overnight by a new power plant.
Further, especially after D-Day, American, British and Russian spies and sabotage teams did all they could to disrupt German war production. William Donovan, head of the wartime OSS, was asked what he did during the war: “We killed people and blew up things.”
The Germans did not have oil? Of course they did, but by late 1944, it had become very difficult to transport it due to overwhelming Allied air superiority (see Investigation by the U.S. Government Technical Oil Mission, November, 14, 1945; Table One - which shows 24 companies producing synthetic fuel).
This disc aircraft project produced conventionally powered disc aircraft and some using a more advance propulsion system. The latter were evacuated from Germany at war’s end. The power plant used could never be allowed on the open market.
It touches on the edge of the realm of speculation and ‘Conspiricy Theory’, but the DuPont family and senior managment were susposedly admirers of the nazis. I dont know what their actiual attitude towards the British might have been. The DuPonts have often been connected to the most conservative groups in the US of the 1930s & early 1940s, and were susposedly funding lobbyists and politicians opposed to Roosevelts policys, including funding the America First group. They have also been connected to bitter protests and congresional votes against the trade embargos against Japan during 1940-41.
Business men certainly focus on the bottom line of the finance ledger, but they are also human and subject to the same emotional and political thoughts as the rest of us. It is not impossible the DuPonts business alignment with IG Farben reflected political and social opinion as much as a strict focus on cash flow.
Marcin:
This disc aircraft project produced conventionally powered disc aircraft and some using a more advance propulsion system. The latter were evacuated from Germany at war’s end. The power plant used could never be allowed on the open market.
Tell us about these types then, with as much documentation as you have!
Evacuate to where, and why?
And elaborate on why the Germans of the first half of 1945 should be affraid of using unconventional propulsion system; they had absolutely no reason not to use them if they had them, and couldn´t care less about future oil industry upheavals.
redcoat: probably this picture is taken in Hungary,but I think that ufo is not pass in that picture
I have already mentioned sources. I recommend Die Realitaet der Flugscheiben by Joseph Andreas Epp. The Americans have a file on him.
Hitler did not finance the war from his own pocket. What people are forgetting, or do not know, is the incredible number of inventions being created in America and Europe during the early 1900s. However, the people who were asked to finance them selected only those which would make them a great deal of money. Any invention that would put these people out of business would be rejected. I have already outlined the global reach of IG Farben. In the book, Nylon and Bombs by Pap A. Ndiaye, DuPont’s history and role in the development of the American atomic bomb is examined. In Germany, IG Farben, another chemical company, was involved in German atomic research (see also Atomversuche in Deutschland by Guenter Nagel). This involved mining, separation, fabrication and power generation. A classic money making enterprise. Not to mention, whoever develops the weapon first could, quite literally, take control of global events.
Hitler was war manager. Those in power were the ones who put him there, and were able to remove him if need be. “They waited as long as they did because up till July, 1944, they had been satisfied with Hitler.” IG Farben by Richard Sasuly, page 132. After the plot of July 20 failed, Hitler put the SS in charge. People should know that they swore an oath to Hitler, not Germany.
IG Farben was a global cartel. “Cartels accomplish many things, including the raising of prices and burying (emphasis mine) of inventions, but they do not add to the peace of the world.” (Ibid., page 134)
The SS included among its members engineers and scientists. One such man was Dr. Ing. SS Obergruppenfeuhrer und General der Waffen SS Hans Kammler. Hitler gave Kammler Plenopotentiary powers over all secret weapons developments and access to all the best scientific minds, equipment and inventions in 1945. The disc aircraft were put under his control.
It should be understood that within Germany during the war there were competing interests; different groups that wanted to manipulate the situation to their financial advantage. The special propulsion system would not be acceptable to such people from a purely financial position. The war, they knew, would be over and they would survive even though Hitler may or may not. And how did the Americans treat those who were charged with crimes at IG Farben? “After the investigation of IG Farben had continued for some time an American officer decided that the IG executives no longer need be kept in jail. They were released.” (Ibid. pg. 230) The punishment of IG Farben was light.
The prototypes of the special disc aircraft were evacuated from Germany just before the end of the war. There are several stories regarding the supposed death of Hans Kammler.
Hitler was war manager. Those in power were the ones who put him there, and were able to remove him if need be. “They waited as long as they did because up till July, 1944, they had been satisfied with Hitler.” IG Farben by Richard Sasuly, page 132. After the plot of July 20 failed, Hitler put the SS in charge. People should know that they swore an oath to Hitler, not Germany.
“Need be”… if there ever was a need, and no, clearly they were incapable of removing him, and they certainly didn´t put him there, though they might have helped the nazi´s a lot financially.
As far as I´ve been able to discern Andreas Epp lost ground contact while questing for book sales postwar. He would really have liked to have been a great suacer inventor, but I haven´t found anything to support that he was. But then again, I haven´t read his book.
So your theory is the following?:
Hans Kammler evacuated to Arizona in the SS saucers and the US are still sitting on this technology, because it´s so profitable for the cooperations that managed to hush up the saucer tech. delivered to the US to have the US wage oil wars on the other side of the world, develop and build B-2´s, scramjets and what have you at exceedingly high cost…
Or would a manager of such a cooperation make sure to develop the novel transportation tech. into something saleable in order to get even richer?