Not only that, they were obsessively up to date with their paperwork[/quote]
Obsessive Compulsive? :shock:
It is in the Talmud. You can look it up if you wish.(Gittin 58-a) As i stated not from me. And while your at it,read a little bit more. Very interesting to non-Jews and to Christians.
In Oct. 1919.New york Gov. Martin Glynn gave a speech in Albany,NY. reporting on the "holocaust of 6 mill. Jewish men and woman during ww1.
“The Crucifixion of Jews Must stop” and it was printed in the 10/31/19 American Hebrew magazine,published by the American Jewish Committee.
6 mill didn’t die in ww1 and no serious historian believes they did.
These are a couple of examples as to why I question 6 mill or anywhere near it in ww2.
The largest number that the Romans used was the million and they were the most numerically literate people in the western world at the time so I doubt the fairly small and insignificant Jewish nation had any concept of the “billion”. In fact I suspect that the concept didn’t really come about until the 18th/19th centuries and even then it was unclear - Britain used one billion to mean one million million, 10E12 (1,000,000,000,000 - How do you do superscript in HTML?) whereas the US used one thousand million, 10E9 (1,000,000,000).
Hadrian was emperor 117-138 meaning that his legions would have had to get through nearly 200 million jews a year! There was an uprising during his reign and Trajan’s before it but I doubt there were more than a few million jews in the entire world at the time.
As I said before, I don’t believe you can read ancient hebrew or have access to a copy of the Talmud. Therefore, you must have heard this claim from another book. No one I know has heard anything about this, and internet searching doesn’t give any hints of where to start. The largest estimate I have found is a jewish site that claims approximately one million Jews died over a sixty year period including the Great Revolt and the Bar Kokhba revolt. I have to say that I have never heard the suggestion of the Talmud claiming four billion jewish deaths at Roman hands before, and there’s not a peep about it on t’internet. I’ll need pointing in the right direction to find out more. Gittin 58-a refers to an army of four hundred thousand, but not a massacre of four billion. Other places point me at sites with domains like ‘nukeisrael.com’ which fail an objectivity test.
When looking at the language used in primary sources, it is important to note the age of the source. The two sources you quote are obviously not referring to what is currently know as the Holocaust. Your comment, however, is cut and paste from this site. In fact, almost your entire post has been cut and pasted from there. It’s the site of a self proclaimed historical revisionist and holocaust denier.[/quote]
In the light of what I have found searching for Glynn’s speech, I was going to have to re-write the above. I’ll let it stand. I have found some internet sources for what you have written.
The National Socialist Movement - speaks for itself
Zundelsite - a historical revisionist and self-proclaimed holocaust denier
and more and more historical revisionist sites with an obvious anti-semitic bent.
I’ve tried to find out about the American hebrew magazine. Unfortunately, the only American Hebrew anything I have found is a school that opened in 2001, or mentions of that magazine on neo-nazi and historical revisionist websites.
May I suggest the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a source of similarly reliable material?
Well maybe those 6 million people are on the moon then…oh wait that didnt really happen either…shit those guys could be anywhere.
Firstly I would like to point out that 6 million people dying at the hands of the Nazi’s during a 12 year period is reasonable. 4 billion people dying in a 21 year period is just crazy.
Take a look at the transcripts of the Wanssee conferance and tell me you think they didnt reach that number. So the number might be off but I would say its definatly between 5 and 7 million. It hard to say. The number could be higher we dont know.
Got to agree with the Gen here. All the evidence is there to prove it happened. If someone chooses not to believe it, then nothing we can do here will change it.
Sorry just read back to this:
Finally to Firefly - One should also bear in mind that although the Nazis inflicted horror on the Soviets and vice versa, it was individual human beings who perpetrated and endured them.
I would like to point out that the deliberate mass starvation of whole Ukranian populations for example, the systematic deportation of millions of humans to slave labour camps etc is not the work of individuals. It too was a calculated cold blooded act designed to rid Europe of the Slavic populations. Yes I agree with the Holocaust, but there were many millions more who sufferred more than just the estimated 5-7 million Jews.
In a crazy twisted sort of way, perhaps some of those Gypsies gassed in the Camps sufferred less than Ukranian peasant women worked to death over 3 years and continually raped and brutalised.
All of this brutality was a direct result of deliberate State policy by the Nazis. All of it should be included as a Holocaust and not just the Jewish part. To deny part, is to deny all…
Your comment, however, is cut and paste from this site. In fact, almost your entire post has been cut and pasted from there. It’s the site of a self proclaimed historical revisionist and holocaust denier.[/quote]
From http://www.zundelsite.org/english/zgrams/zg2001/zg0109/010901.html
in October 1919 (!) New York Governor Martin Glynn gave a speech in Albany, New York reporting on the “holocaust [of] six million Jewish men and women” who were dying due to the “awful tyranny of war and a bigoted lust for Jewish blood” during World War I. (!)
Glynn’s speech, entitled “The Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop” was printed in the October 31, 1919 (!) issue of the “American Hebrew Magazine,” published by the American Jewish Committee.
The truth is that six million Jews did not die during World War I – and no serious historian believes today that they did.
[b]WTF?? Blitz, firstly, you will add from now on each source of your posts (each url from where you’ll copy and paste).
Secondly, what do you want frankly??[/b]
For remberance: fareast… :lol: :lol:
Edited: FIY:
Blitz, fareast WAS banned. Be careful!
Apologies Firefly and others for my woolly thinking - I have worded my point about individuals very poorly. It didn’t help that I mixed up two related but different ideas together.
(3rd draft) Each of these atrocities we talk of are perpetrated against abstract groups, but experienced by the individuals of those groups. The perpetrators are all individuals, acting in concert towards a particular aim. Thinking purely in terms of one abstract group inflicting a horror upon another dehumanises the events to a certain extent. This makes it easier to think about, but easier to justify too. To the Nazis, the Jews weren’t a number of individuals with a common ethnic background (Nazi definition was based on heritage, not practising members of the religion) but an abstract group, whose components were merely nonhuman numbers. The slavic ‘untermensch’ were similarly regarded. Once we stop thinking about such groups being made up of individuals, it is much easier to demonise them, which is an early step on the way to much worse things.
I’m not quite happy with the wording, but I hope this gets the point across better.
edited to add: On the mass starvation of Ukrainians. Perpetrated by individuals acting alone - no. But perpetrated by individual human beings acting as an organised group towards a common goal.
I have used a narrow - perhaps too narrow, on the strength of my recent reading for this debate, - definition of the holocaust as a campaign of extermination against the Jews and others conducted predominantly in death camps. I never sought to deny that this was but one of many evil acts of Nazi Germany, albeit one with a unique horror - application of industrial methods to achieve genocide. I regard that as a different kind of horror becuase it goes beyond mere contempt or hatred. Calm, rational thought was used to work out the most efficient way of achieving this, along the same lines as moving coal or manufacturing cars. I omitted the widespread massacres of Soviet PoWs and civillians not because I do not believe they happened or were less horrible, but because I didn’t consider them to be within the terms of this debate.
Fair points all. My comments were not however aimed specifically at you, apologies if they came across this way. My main point was that many things can be constitued as a Holocaust and there are many other ethnic groups that sufferred as much, if not more than the Jewish population and by mostly the same methods.
I’m damned well sure that if the war had gone on another 2 years many other ethnic groups would have been factory killed instead of deliberately brutalised.
I personaly, just dont think we should elevate one above all the rest, thats all.
Blitz, fareast WAS banned. Be careful![/quote]
…And Blitz, this was not a threat, it was just an information and an advice!
Dani, please explain your above post. I don’t understand it.
The above quoted post belongs to a banned user (asiatic for your information). It was an example of racist post. You are on a thin line between racist posts and regular post.
So my advice is to be careful with your posts.
Again,Look it up. I did ,you can. (Talmud) It’s not hard to do.
Speaking of “industializzzed killing camps?” What are they? How was this accomplished. Where were they? And again, No need to get nasty.Just because you may be afraid to question the 'holocaust doesn’t mean others have to be. And when someone does,that does not give you the right to be so nasty. Something even the mod’s seem to do.
Dani, how were my posts racist? Just what did say??
I don’t believe the figure of 4 billion Jews killed by the Romans is credible. From the figures I posted (with references) in another thread
http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=944&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
the total World population in 1 AD is estimated in a range between 150 and 400 million.
This post was already discussed.
And there are the thin line.
I tried to look it up. Your figures are present only in websites containing almost identical wording to your post. I ask for the third time for you to say where you read this. I do not think you read it in the original hebrew, or have access to a Talmud, therefore you have read this in a secondary source. Which? Reference it directly, hard copy or url. Reference it in a manner that is utterly unambiguous. I have yet to see a single plausible site which makes your claim of 4 billion. For reference, a site widely decorated with swastikas does not make a plausible source of information on Jewish or hebrew matters.
As for where these camps are - as a start point, Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, and Auschwitz-Birkenau. You will need to distinguish between work camps, which ‘merely’ killed people in large numbers due to the conditions and those which were purpose built for killing. Whether or not you believe the information, the wikipedia provides excellent starting points for research.
So far, you have yet to demonstrate any original thought. You repeatedly ask us to read more widely and consider the wider truth. Yet, where you have bothered to provide any information, it comes from websites with titles like ‘nukeisrael.com’ that tend to have logos incorporating swastikas or refer to national socialism as a well respected political movement. Do these sound like a wide range of differing viewpoints, or have you followed their information so slavishly without thinking that your posts are in fact text taken verbatim from these sites?
I, like a number of others who have lived in Germany have visited one or two of the camp (Dachau in my case). They are real, they are there, I have spent the day walking round one.
You also have film of the camps in action taken by the Nazis to show what they are doing. For many years the Canadian government would not use the information gained on hypothermia.
You also have war correspondence that arrived at the time of liberation of a camp and filmed it. You have the evidence of a number of British SOE agents who were kept in different parts of the camps.
Was all this a big hoax built by Hollywood?
Nothing you have provided so far disproves it happened, you are just quibbling over the number.
I, like a number of others who have lived in Germany have visited one or two of the camp (Dachau in my case). They are real, they are there, I have spent the day walking round one.
I too have spent quite a while in Germany, and co-incidentally have visited Dachau too.
Even my German friends dont doubt it happened.
Its foolish to even try and deny it.