I think he’s worn out his welcome here…
Agreed.
There is a clear desire for violence among some Muslims, but there’s an even clearer desire for much larger violence among Dubya’s administration and the nations, like mine, which have hung off its ill-conceived political and military adventures.
Like all wars, there will be casualties and then both sides will settle down and get on with trade etc, leaving the widows and orphans on both sides to wonder whether it was worth it.
As much as I hate locking threads down, I’m going too for a bit after someone finishes their reply…
Posted via PM by Drake:
Omitted
No I don’t. It doesn’t need to be controlled, since the problem I see is nothing corporeal like a terrorist attack, but rather a mindset dangerous to our western society as a whole, as I explained before. It’s like the enlightenment in reverse, this one wasn’t centrally orchestrated either. And this mindset is hardwired to the teachings of the koran, so if you are looking for the center of my “conspiracy theory” it would be there. This doesn’t even mean, that every muslim understands koran like that, but a significant (two digit percentage) amount of them does and that is a problem for our societies. And it always will be, since those who do understand it like that cannot be persuaded to change that view and accept our values, since it is explicitly forbidden. I didn’t make that one up, there actually is this order to follow the rules, but only as long as they can’t be removed and replaced with sharia.
And again, I can only repeat what I said several times before: It’s not just about terrorists, I’d even say they are the minor problem in the long run. Like you said, centrally controlled plots are being uncovered by our intelligence agencies and police forces regularly.
It is a rude picture (though I didn’t tirade) , but as a matter of fact the “hardcore” muslims have a significantly higher birthrate, even compared to moderate muslims. Btw, the nazis used the rat comparison not for their breeding habit but for other attributes, but you’re right, it’s inappropriate.
Wow, you’re mixing up a whole bunch of things there. If I paint with a wide brush, you do just the same.
And do you really think those states are remotly comparable to europe? I don’t care if the radicals couldn’t seize power there for the moment. The fact that this was even a possibility should ring your alarm bells as it does mine.
Because this means they are around in numbers, maybe not yet a majority, but not that far off. And we have imported smaller versions of those societies, thank you very much.
And most, if not all of those states are factual dictatorships, sometimes with a democratic facade.
The one state within the muslim world we consider nearly western is turkey. And the last elections have been won by, guess who, religious fundamentalists.
You know that I feel a little like Churchill here (I know, sometimes a bastard of his own right, and pretty presumptuous of me :mrgreen:) who warned of the Nazis and no one took him serious. I don’t express those thoughts heedlessly, since I am well aware of the similarities of some of them with nazi propaganda and the high potential for abuse. I might be wrong, but if I am not, then we’re in deep trouble over here.
Growing within the muslim community in europe, of course. And the muslim community in europe is growing as well.
More to preserve ourselves and our culture.
Reopened. Please do not get into the race war stuff here…
The proportion of white population in the US and the EU, Slavic states declines the proportion of non-white quickly grows. The legislation is one of the means that creates necessary conditions for this.
More politically correct bullshit.
Sharia Law: A Canadian Controversy
by Kumkum Ramchandani
Canada’s approximately 700,000 Muslims, half of whom live in the province of Ontario, are sharply divided over the province’s endorsement of Sharia tribunals to arbitrate civil matters like inheritance, marriage, custody, divorce and family disputes. A 1991 Arbitration Law in Ontario has already allowed arbitration according to religious principles for some of the communities living here including Jews, Ismaili Muslims and Christians.
Not surprisingly, many Muslim women’s organizations are expressing their displeasure stating that they have not been consulted and that Sharia will create an unnecessary two tier legal system resulting in marginalization of the Muslim community. Some Muslim women, on the other hand, feel that an Islamic legal system will recognize their Islamic beliefs more clearly than a Canadian court. Fierce debates are being held in the media and within homes and public meetings.
A staunch crusader against the new law is social activist Homa Arjomand who fled Iran in 1989 with her husband and two toddlers after being tipped off that her life was in danger. She has set up an International Campaign Against Setting Up Sharia Court in Canada which has already been signed up by thousands of women. The petition states that the proposed Sharia tribunals are anti-freedom, anti-women, misogynist, anti-modernist and racist. It calls for religion to be declared the private affair of the individual and complete separation of religion from education for children under age 16 as well as prohibition of inhuman religious ceremonies and practice of religion that is incompatible with people’s civil rights and liberties.
The petition states, “We believe that all people who live in Canada are citizens with equal rights and should live according to same social laws and norms. We do not divide society into cultural, religious, national and racial majorities and minorities. We stand for equal and universal laws and freedoms for all humanity, which should embrace all, irrespective of sex, race, ethnicity.”
Arjomand cites a case to bring home the fact that Muslim law and secular law can be at odds. “I have a client in Toronto,” she states, “who was taken out of school by her parents at the age of 15 and was pushed to marry a 29 year old man under the Sharia law. According to the eyes of the Sharia they are married but according to the Canadian legal system they are not. At the age of 16 this young pregnant girl is going through separation because of abuse (verbal, mental, financial and sexual). In a secular court, the fact that she was forced to marry at a young age is considered a crime and her husband will be charged for assault and child abuse. As for her parents, they too will be charged……however, in the eyes of the Sharia tribunal no crime has taken place and the matter is civil and can be resolved.”
Full article here
http://www.kumkumramchandani.com/sharia_law.htm
Just try to implement an westerner system of justice in any Muslim country…and you ll see. :neutral:
My understanding is that it is not part of the law of Canada but a voluntary system to which Muslims can submit.
There’s nothing remarkable about such a situation.
The Catholic Church has its own legal and court system for dealing with divorce etc under Catholic law. That system exists in every Catholic diocese around the world, under the control of the local bishop who is the supreme judge in his own diocese, subject to appeal to the Vatican courts in certain circumstances. Catholics can choose to use that system or the state system, or both to satisfy the legal requirements of both. http://www.wagga.catholic.org.au/Organisations/MarriageTribunal.aspx
If Muslims are a creeping menace because they have their own divorce tribunals operating according to their own religious law, then the Catholics are just as bad. Worse, really, because there’s an awful lot more of them and their dioceses in the West and they’ve been at it a lot longer. So far, there’s no sign that that has destroyed Western civilisation, or infringed the separation of Church and state (outside a few places like Ireland, Italy and Spain where the dominant Catholic religion has been mirrored in much of the secular law.)
Every Catholic diocese in a Muslim country has implemented its own legal system under its own tribunals, because those tribunals and that system are part of the law of every diocese under the Code of Canon Law administered by every Catholic bishop.
So it applies, for example, in these dioceses in Pakistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Pakistan
In any event, there may be no real need for a Sharia tribunal, at least under some streams of Islam. I know of several cases where Muslims here divorced under their own religious law and it was done through the local imam in pursuance of pre-marital agreements which were part of the marriage process.
This changes I made on your statements are the demands I’d expect to appear within a few decades after implementation of the version from your statement.
There definatly is no such thing as a code of canon court in germany, you can only divorce before a federal german court. The only case where this court might exist here is within the churchs structure if a priest f.e. does something “wrong” in the context of that law, but that’s pretty much an employer employee thing anyway and you get disciplinary punishment like demotion or transfer etc. in any civil company as well. If the priest does something really wrong like child abuse, the federal court system gets him anyway.
Exactly how are they the “threat?” What is their total population percentage in Germany? How do second and third generation Muslims differ from new immigrants? Do they not become ‘Germanized?’ More secular?
Again, you’re assuming the Koran is taken literally by everyone. It simply is not!
And again, I can only repeat what I said several times before: It’s not just about terrorists, I’d even say they are the minor problem in the long run. Like you said, centrally controlled plots are being uncovered by our intelligence agencies and police forces regularly.
I fail to see any long term threat with tightly controlled immigration policies and security forces designed to monitor and quash radicals.
It is a rude picture (though I didn’t tirade) , but as a matter of fact the “hardcore” muslims have a significantly higher birthrate, even compared to moderate muslims. Btw, the nazis used the rat comparison not for their breeding habit but for other attributes, but you’re right, it’s inappropriate.
The Muslim birthrates are also subject to many factors. Many children is largely a third world mindset and are subject to many factors.
For instance, While Germany has a dismal population net loss of -.033%. Turkey has a net population growth of 1.4%, The United States is at .894%. Iran’s population is actually growing less than the US’s at .663% a year…
The more developed, the more the population growth begins to decline, and the US’ net population growth is actually significantly higher than that cornerstone of the Axis of Evil, Iran’s, is…
Wow, you’re mixing up a whole bunch of things there. If I paint with a wide brush, you do just the same.
And do you really think those states are remotly comparable to europe? I don’t care if the radicals couldn’t seize power there for the moment. The fact that this was even a possibility should ring your alarm bells as it does mine.
Because this means they are around in numbers, maybe not yet a majority, but not that far off. And we have imported smaller versions of those societies, thank you very much.
And most, if not all of those states are factual dictatorships, sometimes with a democratic facade.
The one state within the muslim world we consider nearly western is turkey. And the last elections have been won by, guess who, religious fundamentalists.
Most of those dictatorships you speak of vary widely. In fact, we can talk about the pan-Arab nationalists types like Saddam. I was driving last night and heard an NPR story (US public radio news) on the status of Christians in the middle east. Not surprisingly, they are under pressure and now being forced out of Iraq. But in the days of Saddam, or in Nasser’s/Sadat’s Egypt, Christians were actively supported by these dictatorships (Saddam had churches built) because they were part of a constituency against Islamic fundamentalism, the main threat to the Westward looking dictators. Again, many of these dictatorships ruled with the belief that sometime later that their nations would achieve partial democracy (after they were gone of course ;)). And some of these dictatorships resulted as a direct military (secular) response to Islamic fundamentalism as happened in Algeria. Yet, Turkey and, to a limited extent, Iran are both democratic to varying extents. Democracy has also been forced on Iraq, but the problems there have much more to do with ethnicity than actual Islam. Along with the Christians being forced out, hundreds of thousands of Sunnis had to flee the country to Syria and Jordan as well. One could argue that in Europe, the security and structure that the secular, Pan-Arab-Nationalist dictatorship has been replaced by the structure of the democratic state that offers the carrot of political participation and the ‘stick’ of security forces under the Napoleonic Code and stable organs of bureaucracy …
You know that I feel a little like Churchill here (I know, sometimes a bastard of his own right, and pretty presumptuous of me :mrgreen:) who warned of the Nazis and no one took him serious. I don’t express those thoughts heedlessly, since I am well aware of the similarities of some of them with nazi propaganda and the high potential for abuse. I might be wrong, but if I am not, then we’re in deep trouble over here.
Churchill was speaking in specific terms of an organized, hegemonic movement taking shape in an archrival at a time when some dismissed it as a bunch of incompetents or a positive “bulkwark against Bolshevism.” Not some amorphous confluence of a religion that doesn’t really exist…
BTW, Chamberlain is much maligned. He spoke of “peace in our time,” but actually stalled the Germans and began preparing the British for the inevitable War. If he hadn’t, and had things happened as they did earlier, the RAF would have had no Spitfires at the Battle of Britain…
Growing within the muslim community in europe, of course. And the muslim community in europe is growing as well.
Yes, but this varies. The population growth begins to plummet relative to how advanced the society becomes…
More to preserve ourselves and our culture.
They will be assimilated, provided there are limitations on how many come in. There’s a big difference, I am certain, of a Muslim Kurd that immigrated to Germany, and one that was born there and attended German schools…
Really? What is the “white” population in the US? Hispanics are “white,” are they not?
And what exactly does this mean? What specific legislation? Slavery in the US which brought Africans here to begin with?
Perhaps.
But it will require some heavy support in a Western democracy, which I doubt is or will be present in the current climate of suspicion of Islam.
Anyway, haven’t Canadians already surrendered themselves to a much greater sort of separatism demanded by the French in Quebec, which is just about as alien to their Anglo society as Islam? Given a choice between succumbing to Islam or the French, Islam doesn’t look too bad. 
These changes happen in all societies, in various ways with various demands and accommodations.
It’s not that that long ago here that Catholics had trouble getting public service jobs. Not least because there were the same phobic and hostile attitudes to them in the dominant Anglo-Anglican community as we are seeing in many respects now with Western attitudes to Muslims.
In my lifetime I’ve seen it here with immigrant groups since WWII from various parts of northern and southern Europe, Yugoslavia, Greece, Turkey, Lebanon, Vietnam, and so on. I’ve also seen the earlier migrant groups have similar phobias about and hostility towards the later migrant groups.
We’ve pretty much accommodated most of them, although we would have done a lot better with better immigration screening; better assimilation rather than multi-cultural policies; and more vigorous deportation of proved problems early in their local anti-social and criminal careers. If we’d done that, we wouldn’t be stuck with some of the Italian Mafia, Greek arsehole, Lebanese shit, and Asian triads, and Russians and their ilk who are even worse than the triads.
I don’t see any reason why we can’t accommodate Muslims, whose religion requires them to observe the host community’s laws as long as it doesn’t prevent them practising their religion, which our laws don’t.
The fears of a Muslim takeover aren’t any different to the same fears that existed here about Catholics until about half a century ago.
A lot of it is just fear of difference, born of ignorance and fear of change.
If you have a Catholic diocese, you have a canon law tribunal (or court). It’s prescribed by the Code of Canon Law. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
Catholics can be divorced by state law but that’s not recognised in Church law, and vice versa.
A Catholic who wants to remarry after being divorced under state law must obtain an annulment under Church law if he or she wants the second marriage to be recognised, and not be sinful, under Church law.
Mate, because it’s a dead end with a dead head, a very wise man posted here not long ago:
Reopened. Please do not get into the race war stuff here…
Mate, no doubt because he foresaw that it’s a predictable dead end with a terminally irrational dead head living in some white supremacist cave with a KKK hood over his pointy head to filter out reality, a very wise man posted here not long ago:
Reopened. Please do not get into the race war stuff here…
Yeah, you’re right. Kato is banned from this thread at least. I hate deletions, but I’m no longer getting into his philosophical rantings on Eugenics…
I think you’ve responded to a post that I thought I’d deleted before anyone saw it.
I deleted it shortly after posting because I felt like I was telling you what to do.
And then I thought I wouldn’t mind seeing you and Kato go at it.
I’ve “gone at it” with him enough previously…
We’ve had these gratuitous, nature-vs.-nurture arguments before…
True, but I’ve never been able to work out whether his views condemn nature or nurture.
How about using your godly powers to split the Balkan Menace / Slavic Blood Feud Festival etc from this thread?
It’s all a bit esoteric for those of us whose only interest in the Balkans is chevapccichi and spit roasts, while in the Ukraine it’s limited to that spunky blonde prime minister sheila with the braided hair.
Perhaps later. When the talisman to my powers, beer, has worn off…