The next EU (Eurasian Union).

True, but the difference between WWI and now is that pan-Slavism then was Russian imperial opposition to the German and Austro-Hungarian threat to the Balkans.

The current issue is more in the nature of intra-Slavic cannibalism.

Which is what Stalin wreaked on what was then The Ukraine in the 1930s with Holodomor.

I expect that there is a long memory in Ukraine for that misery, but the lack of military or other power to resist the latest offence by Russia. Civil wars have been sparked by less.

I’m reasonably confident that Vlad the Impaler doesn’t covet Dublin. ;):smiley:

You’ve got to remember, RS, that I am a child of the Cold War, and have difficulty getting over my infantile memories of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Just because you are paranoid, doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you … Kidding of course.

Mind you, now that I think on it, we have just been confronted with the spectacle of our (normally sensible) Minister for Finance welcoming Donald Trump (and his personal airliner) to Shannon Airport with musicians (don’t think there were dancers) as “The Don” arrived to launch the development of a golf resort at Doonbeg. Perhaps if Vlad were to arrive in Dublin with an air fleet, he might find himself more welcome that he would be in Kiev … Yours from the Kremlin Bathroom Cleaning Department, JR.

US billionaire Donald Trump and family arrive at Shannon in their "Presidential Boeing 757 to a Ministerial greeting, welcoming his promise to develop a major golf resort in these here parts. Could Putin be next ? Vlad the Golfer doesn’t sound quite right … Best regards, JR.

Trumpedup1.jpg

  1. A major golf resort should see Bank of Ireland shares and Irish real estate values soar to their previous heights in no time. A Trump led recovery, as long as this isn’t another De Lorean

  2. Vlad could be ‘golfified’ by adding a T to the pronunciation of his surname, making him Puttin(g).

I recall it well, with a clear image of sitting in the schoolyard about a month before I turned 13 talking to another kid and wondering whether we’d see the missiles coming or if there would just be a massive nuclear explosion without warning. We didn’t understand that the nuclear war was likely to be confined to the northern hemisphere.

Neither did our leaders in that age of nuclear dread. In those days our telephone books had a map on the inside cover with radial rings showing the degrees of damage if a nuclear weapon was dropped on the centre of my city (Melbourne). The rings covering areas I was likely to be in didn’t augur well for my survival. It was a question of whether I’d be lucky enough to be vaporised instantly or irradiated to linger for a few days or weeks depending on where I was at the magic moment.

Curiously, adults were positively excited a few years earlier when the nuclear Armageddon film “On the Beach” http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053137/ was filmed here.

I got over the Cuban missile crisis pretty quickly, possibly because within a year or two Australian concerns focused on the Domino Theory risk to us of communist invasion from our north. This got us involved in the Vietnam War which was a shooting war in the forefront of our minds rather than the more remote risks of the Cold War facing Europe, even though Vietnam was a proxy war sub-set of the Cold War.

So I’m led to believe, I think the collective name for those involved is “Air Force.”

Yes. the some of radical extremist groups definitelly want to use the situation to it’s own profit. Is this possible anywhere in Europe that the ultra-Nationalists groups will be used as anti-govenmental “ice-breacer” by oppositional forces?Yes , in Ukraine. The Junta just armed the UPA fans and send them to kill the another Ukrainains.When regualar army just refuse to execute the orders by Kiev - the UPA extremists are ready to kill with maniac’s passion.
The Putin ,in it’s turn, try to escalate the rising conflict in it’s own imperial interests- to gather the controlled by Kremlin territory. It’s equally danger and expensive ( for the budget) game. But who today counts the funds in a face of ( virtual or real) geopolitical profits. Obvioulsy not the Washington, who stands behind the junta in Ukraine!!!

The Ukrainians seem to be in the awkward position of using their military forces against some of their Russian aligned police, at least from the new reports we get here.

It looks like an opportunity for a civil war, which perhaps brings Russia in. While the West stays out.

Glad I’m not in Ukraine.

The worse. The regular Army obvuiusly wan’t to be involved in civil war- they don’t wish to shot at the civils. Therefore Junta sends the so called “National guard” - the odd mixture of “neo-nazis extremists” and former BlackWater mercenaries whose “enthusasism” to fight depend of sponsors. Although the junta in Kieav is bancrupt - the IMF has just transfered them the 3-billion of cash , which exclusively goes to the war.
Still Ukraine is a buatiful country.Loves it…

Thu, Jun 5, 2014, 2:09pm EDT -

By Armin Rosen 2 hours ago

[i]Pro-Russian Rebels Are Pretty Much Russians[/i]

Yannis Behrakis/REUTERS

Pro-Russian rebels of the Battalion Vostok take positions outside the local administration building in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk, May 29, 2014.

Russia’s professional troublemakers have arrived by the hundreds in Eastern Ukraine.

The Vostok Battalion, a Russian intelligence-linked Chechen-founded paramilitary consisting of battle-hardened militants from the most restive regions within Moscow’s orbit, has arrived to take charge of Ukraine’s pro-Russian rebels.

On May 30, Vostok took over rebel headquarters in Donetsk, asserting control over less-disciplined separatist militants. According to the New York Times today, the group, which became active in Ukraine in early May, has even set up a training camp in Donetsk’s botanical gardens.

Vostok’s presence in Eastern Ukraine signals a subtle and important pivot in Russian president Vladimir Putin’s strategy. Russia has drawn down its uniformed forces from Ukraine’s border, creating the impression that there’s no imminent threat of a conventional invasion. At the same time, experienced irregulars with connections to Russia’s intelligence services have helped extend Moscow’s reach inside of it southern neighbor.

As New York University professor and Russia expert Mark Galeotti explained to Business Insider when reached in Moscow, Vostok consists of militants from Chechnya, Dagestan, and Ossetia — some of the most conflict-torn places in Russia’s domain. “They aren’t there to replace the militias in Eastern Ukraine. They’re there to be the force that essentially controls them in Moscow’s name,” says Galeotti.

Vostok was disbanded after the 2008 Russian incursion into Georgia, in which it participated. The battalion had been managed by a Chechen family with a longstanding vendetta against Ramzan Kadyrov, Chechnya’s pro-Russian leader. Now that Vostok can be useful again, it’s been allowed to reconstitute itself.

Moscow’s current objective in eastern Ukraine isn’t annexation or direct control. Rather, Putin wants to maintain relative order with an eye towards reaching a favorable accord with the new government in Kiev — one that effectively resets the situation to late 2013, when Ukraine’s pro-Moscow government was still planning on joining Putin’s Eurasian customs union and spurning any EU or NATO overtures.

Under this strategy, Ukraine remains a permanent member of Russia’s “near abroad,” with its politics operating within parameters set by Moscow. The Vostok Battalion helps advance that goal.

“This is a specifically Russian military intelligence operation,” says Galeotti. “They stood this force up and its role is to try and reassert some degree of control over the situation. Moscow is beginning to become alarmed how Eastern Ukraine was spinning into chaos and warlordism.”

Vostok is one of Moscow’s instruments in achieving this victor’s peace. Their role is “essentially political,” Galeotti says: Vostok is Putin’s way of controlling other, less disciplined pro-Russian militants.

But there are between 300 and 400 Russian fighters from Vostok in Ukraine right now, and they are highly capable soldiers.

“They are mainly battle-hardened veterans,” says Galeotti. “They are a cut above not just almost all of the other militia, but at the same time they are also more capable than almost any of the Ukrainian regular military.”

As a result, the rebels are now capable of shooting down aircraft, and seizing critical infrastructure. The Russian army may no longer be camped out on Ukraine’s border, and the country’s incident-free presidential election created the perception that the situation is de-escalating.

In reality, Putin’s latest power play in Ukraine is already in progress.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-crisis-entering-dangerous-phase-152258286.html

BREAKING NEWS:

A Malaysia Airlines Plane has crashed near the Russian-Ukrainian border. Speculation is that it was shot down, perhaps by a fighter aircraft…

Of course they are “Russian” (at least in their own minds). And all they want Vlad to do is “intervene”. What “Little Russian Brother” could ask for less ? By the way -

vladimir-putin-riding-bear.jpg

Words fail me. I am reminded of Timur Vermes’ “Hitler” (in "Look Who’s Back), who observes that when a leader (or leaderene) takes his (or her) shirt off, their policy has gone to pot … Best regards, JR.

Pusso.jpg

PS - sorry about the pussycat (which, I believe, is called “Pusso”. She got attached through a combination of my incompetence and the intractability of this blasted Forum software. But then, maybe people would like to see her, anyway … Miaow ! JR.

Regarding the Malaysian airliner - truly appalling. Unless Malaysian aircraft have a unique talent for vanishing/being destroyed without warning, there are really only two possibilities; first, that an on-board bomb was exploded by a suicide bomber, and secondly, that the airliner was shot down, either by a fighter aircraft or (much more likely) by a sophisticated, Russian/Soviet built ground to air missile. I am quite familiar with Amsterdam Airport, and its level of management and security suggests to me that the first possibility is unlikely. As regards the fighter plane option, both the Ukrainian and the Russians have, of course, modern fighters, but surely both Russian and Ukrainian pilots can recognize a civilian airliner when they see one, and the crew of the airliner would have noticed a fighter plane in their vicinity and radioed as much. The “Little Russian Brothers” of east Ukraine may have plenty of arms, but these do not include an air force.

This leaves missiles. Any of the parties involved in this conflict could be responsible for a missile shoot-down. The Russians and the Ukrainians both have missile systems capable of this - in fact, they are the same systems. As regards the LRBs, they have spent the last few weeks raiding Ukrainian arsenals in their region, and there are reports that they may have captured at least one such system. A much worse scenario would be that they had been supplied with advanced ground to air missiles by Vlad and his forces. Since the idea that either Russian or Ukrainian forces had an interest in shooting down an airliner transporting a large number of people who had absolutely nothing to do with this conflict (worse, many of whom were Dutch), the Little Russian Brothers seem targeted by the Fickle Finger of Fate in this case. Whether they knew that the target was a civilian airliner or not is irrelevant; first, if they did it, they had no lawful right to shoot down aircraft anyway, and secondly, taking pot-shots at passing aircraft in disregard of what sort of aircraft it is counts for me as outrageous and criminal.

When I started this thread, I was, in part, being humorous. This business does not look a bit funny, now. Yours in sadness, JR.

There is a third possibility, being a catastrophic explosion because of some malfunction on the plane. It wouldn’t be the first time this has happened.

Or even a fourth possibility, given the still missing other Malaysian plane and passengers, that someone is targeting Malaysia’s airline for reasons which have nothing to do with Ukraine.

Common sense suggests that the most likely explanation involves a missile or fighter attack because of the region in which the disaster occurred and various bits of ‘evidence’ emerging, but common sense is no substitute for a careful and impartial investigation by qualified people.

As indeed did the Soviets when their fighters intentionally downed a Korean plane with similar loss of life in 1983. Russia, as the USSR, is the only nation I can think of which has ever knowingly and intentionally downed a clearly marked civilian passenger plane in peace time.

Not necessarily. Civilian pilots aren’t on the alert for attack and civilian aircraft aren’t equipped with the types of electronic equipment which military aircraft use to detect threats. Military aircraft, even if equipped with transponders which register on civilian frequencies, would be invisible to civilian aircraft if they turn off their transponders, and probably have equipment to conceal their presence from the, compared with military grade equipment, fairly basic detection equipment on civilian airliners. Civilian aircraft pilots have limited forward vision and little or no vision to the rear and downwards. An attack by a fighter from any rear quadrant, top, bottom, or side would have been invisible to the Malaysian plane’s pilots, and more so if launched from a considerable distance. There would have been no opportunity to radio anything if the plane was hit without warning.

Russian involvement, in the sense of intentional contribution in any way to knowingly downing an identified Malaysian civilian plane, is most unlikely.

Doing so would undermine decades of work Russia has been doing to get a presence and support in South East Asia. Malaysia is one of the major countries it has been courting, e.g. http://rbth.asia/business/2013/07/19/top_5_areas_for_cooperation_between_russia_and_malaysia_48059.html
http://www.ponarseurasia.org/sites/default/files/policy-memos-pdf/Pepm_260_Wishnick_July%202013.pdf

Agree entirely.

But I’m not in the best position to take the moral high ground, given that my nation has taken routinely to breaching the law of the seas and engaging in state-sanctioned piracy against defenceless poor bastards since our latest neo-con government was elected (e.g. http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/asylum-seekers-held-behind-locked-doors-at-sea-denied-proper-legal-help-claim-20140716-ztshd.html
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/sri-lankan-asylumseekers-to-remain-stuck-on-australian-ship/story-fn9hm1gu-1226993672476?nk=8fbfa6d8f346fecb3745c6831e3d53f4

If this is what we can do in a supposed law abiding democracy, it’s entirely possible that Russia or Ukraine as similarly selectively lawless international citizens engaged in an undeclared war could engage in a bit of collateral damage. But, in the absence of clear evidence, it’s still possible that the plane came down because of intentional damage by someone targeting Malaysia’s airline or because of some innocent malfunction.

Given the self-interest of Russia and Ukraine in blaming each other, with luck the US, or someone else, will be able to disclose sufficient independent evidence from satellite or other sources to show what happened.

No need to apologise.

I’m always willing to look at a photo of a pussy.

(And this is more or less how my lifetime ban from the discussion boards on eBay started.)

adN2M0Z_460s-e1394106966155.jpg

That [the captioned photo], unfortunately, sums up the situation perfectly.

I can’t help seeing parallels between Putin and Stalin in their contemptuous determination to get everything they want without regard to others and other nations.

Putin is on a winner in disregarding world opinion, and he knows it.

Western Europe depends upon Russian gas and oil (which enriches Putin and his cabal) and won’t risk its energy over an aircraft from a minor Asian nation or internal Slavic conflict.

The US isn’t going to go to war or anything like it over Ukraine and a Malaysian plane.

Russia has the upper hand because it can respond to serious economic sanctions by cutting off a good part of Western Europe’s energy.

About the only serious diplomatic, albeit symbolic, response at present is in Australia’s hands in refusing to admit Putin to the G20 conference later this year.

Putin’s conduct removes any doubt in my mind that Russia is either involved in downing the airliner or protecting those who did. If Putin and the pro-Russian separatists really believed that Ukraine was responsible, they’d be pulling out all stops to get international investigators to the crash scene. As it is, they’re putting up every obstacle while the separatist brigands are looting the dead.

Separately, does anyone really believe that whoever brought down the plane didn’t know it was a civilian plane? Real time flight information and plane identification is available by mobile phone. http://www.flightradar24.com/48.34,37.63/7 (May take a while to load. Click on any plane symbol to see what and where it is.)

It is dismaying, the manner in which Vlad & Co. are handling this. I have always thought, up to now, that Putin was a prisoner of the Russian political imperative to aid the “Little Russian Brothers” in east Ukraine. Maybe he was; maybe he is. But I have to admit that the behavior of the Kremlin in connection with the Malaysian airliner calamity suggests that, rather than use this as an opportunity to bring the LRBs to heel, Putin has decided to ride his luck on the wave of recent events. No effort has been made to condition Russian public opinion to a switch of tack in Russia’s Ukraine policy; quite the opposite, in fact, as Russia’s state-owned/controlled media continue to take a strong anti-Western, Cold War II position. Reminds me a bit of another autocratically-inclined leader who rode his luck … who was that ? Little corporal with a toothbrush moustache comes to mind …

Regarding who brought down the aircraft, RS*, I admire your forensic analysis in a previous post, but we seem to end up at the same position. The Little Russian Brothers, almost certainly, shot down the aircraft with a fairly advanced ground-to-air missile, almost certainly supplied to them directly by the Russians. Whether they knew what they were shooting at, well, I am not so sure. They may not have had the tracking control equipment or intelligence to know. As regards, the various “aps” and such that enable one to identify individual aircraft with a smartphone - I only became aware of these recently, and I would not be overly sure that the LRBs, or those directly concerned with the attack, would have been so aware. Hardly matters. The LRBs had no right to shoot anything down; and the Russians were incredibly irresponsible if they gave this type of technology to a ragtag army of unsophisticated rebels.

How the east Ukraine situation may play out is hard to say at this point. One point I heard made by a UK expert this morning - if Russia profits by this situation, and if Putin has decided to ride his luck, there are worrying prospect as to what he might do next. I have always been nervous about the policy of the EU and NATO of recruiting states ever closer to what Russia perceives as its essential zone of interest. That sort of thinking may appear old-fashioned - but that does not appear to be the view of the Kremlin. An extremely dangerous possibility would be that Russia might attempt to destabilize one of the new, exposed NATO/EU member states. Poland is, probably, an improbable target. But what about the Baltic States ? These are EU/NATO member states, the security of which is guaranteed by NATO. All three of them, to a greater or lesser extent, have their own Little Russian Brothers problem. If Putin decides to stir things in the Baltic (and he certainly could) does NATO go to war to protect the Baltic States ? And, if not, what is the worth of NATO at all ? Gods help us … JR.

While the poster was someone’s idea of humor in the Yakov Smirnoff sense, it is to me anyway, a sad commentary on World events. I agree with RS* that NATO will not go to war over the present set of circumstances, even with the pro-Russ separatists’ use of Russ equipment to shoot down the civilian Aircraft.(assuming this can be proven) My particular unease comes from what may issue from these present circumstances, what subsequent, or unexpected actions by Ukraine, the Russians, or an aggrieved 3rd. party Nation might lead to an increase in the probabilities of a showdown.

We do.

I was allowing for other possibilities in that earlier post, but the picture now seems to be crystal clear, if only as deduced from the obstructive and deplorable conduct of Putin and LRBs.

Or, perhaps, captured from the Ukrainians by the LRBs.

What is more interesting is the level of training required to use a SAM that reaches to 10,000 metres.

It requires vastly more training and skill than a shoulder fired weapon able to reach about half that height with modest accuracy even in untrained hands. Depending upon what was used, it probably required a crew of three to four well trained operators.

I wouldn’t say that Russians, in the sense of current regular or temporarily detached Russian forces, are necessarily the operators. There could well be LRBs who were previously trained on these weapons.

Assuming that what is left of the aircraft when investigators are finally allowed in by the brigands can tell any story, it may be that the best that can be deduced is that it could have been a Russian weapon from Russia or a Russian weapon captured from Ukraine, fired by people trained in the use of that weapon but without being able to identify whether they were Russian or LRB.

Assuming Russia gave it, rather than it being captured from a Ukrainian arsenal.

Even if Russia did give it, it’s no more irresponsible than supporting other ragtag armies of unsophisticated rebels such as the Soviets supported in Angola, and America and Britain and various other first world nations supported by aiding other ragtag armies of unsophisticated rebels in their own interests.

I’m not diminishing the appalling conduct in downing the plane and the way the aftermath has been handled by the brigands, but what’s missing in the current outraged Western media saturation coverage and reaction to this event is any sense of perspective that it’s the privileged West getting hugely upset about what, objectively, is just a very, very minor piece of collateral damage in a local war. It’s highly selective as, judged by contemporary media coverage, the West never got that upset about the collateral damage it’s inflicted upon many nations since WWII or other much greater abominations such as Kampuchea and Rwanda, or even the current carnage being inflicted upon Palestinians by the Israelis in that interminable conflict. Nor did the West get upset at all about the US downing an Iranian civilian airliner with a naval SAM in 1988 in Iranian waters with similar loss of life to the current event. Given a choice between being a privileged Western passenger in a plane flying briefly through Ukrainian airspace with minimal chance of being hurt and being one of the poor bastards permanently on the ground as a civil war rages across the Ukrainian landscape supported by the likes of Putin, it’s not hard to work out which is the better place to be.

Putin wants to recapture the old Russian Empire. He started with Georgia six or so years ago, then Crimea recently, and now another part of Ukraine, and he’s doing quite well in all these steps.

My money is on Putin, until he gets to Germany’s eastern border when Merkel and Co or their successors might finally work out that appeasement or, worse, just following the established policy of doing nothing, only ensures that the neo-Soviet bully will take more until someone finally stands up to him. By which time it may well be too late.

Lucky for Russia that there won’t be any US missiles in Poland to interfere with the traditional Russian / German wartime progress towards or through that sorry nation.

Why don’t governments do something outside the rules of diplomacy and belligerency for a change, such as identifying the offshore deposits and assets of Putin and his cronies and publishing those details for his adoring Russian citizens to see. And then confiscating those assets?

But would completely and absolutely devastate his own economy in the process…