The Russo-Finnish War

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#81

Sure you right thank you. the Ideology has spoiled the our relations a lot.

Many times I’e seen this claim of Concentration camp, but these camps can’t be compared with German concentration camps. -Simply because there was no slave labour, no extermination and no intentional cruelty.

But sorry …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Finnish_occupation_policy

The latter was especially scarce in 1942 in Finland due to a bad harvest, and for primarily this reason the number of deaths in Finnish camps rose dramatically. Punishments for escape attempts or serious breaking of rules included solitary confinement and execution. Out of 64,188 Soviet POWs, 18,318 died in Finnish prisoner of war camps
Ylikangas, Heikki, Heikki Ylikankaan selvitys Valtioneuvoston kanslialle

So as we could conclude the death rate in finnish camp was 29%.:slight_smile: In you mind this look like the therapeutic- sanatorium, not death-camp:).Kind finnish care.
Sure you right in GErmans camps the death rate was about 60% for the period 1941-45.So the SOviet POWs in Finnish camp should be quite happy.

Large portion(note, not all) of Russian born people were put into camps, men of fighting age were not around.
-Later court and punishments were given because Soviets demanded blood.

Oh dastard soviets…
They demand the blood…
But what about 4 000 of civils treated to death and murdered during the occupation of Eastenr Karelia?

These camps however were not hostage sites, and they were not near the front.
The deaths are real, but then again, many will refuse to see that during that time there was a famine in Finland and Civilian population suffered greatly, the Karelian refugees in particular because they had no stock.

Oh i even did not guess that finnish population dropped quickly to the half of pre-war figure like Russian civils were reduced since 1941 till the summer 1942?Really the finns suffered just like the russians in Karelia?
Coz the finnish source give the figures of russian population in 24 000 in 1941 and ONLY 15 000 in 1942
According the :
Laine, Antti, Suur-Suomen kahdet kasvot, 1982, ISBN 951-1-06947-0, Otava
^ Maanpuolustuskorkeakoulun historian laitos, Jatkosodan historia 1-6, 1994

After guards and medicals of the camp complained about the conditions, the prisoners got medical care and better food.
-Before Finns retreated, they made sure the prisoners were supplied food to last for two whole weeks.

Oh nice humanism. And what about 500 000 of civils in Leningrad?
Why so kind finns did not leave them food?

Before 1616 those lands were Karelian and Inkeri. St.Petersburg was built on a land which had Inkeri-folk. These days Inkeri-kins can move to Finland if they can proove their bloodline and pass the language examination. We have such a family next door, great people.
-So, who owns the land and by what right?

So it was Karelian land right?They ONLY the legitime owners of those lands.
what about finnish occupation of those lands ?Western Katrelia?

After the Civil war of Finland, there were attempts to claim Eastern Karelia, but they failed due to the lack of intrest. At the time of Continuation war, intrests were tactical; small Field army could hold strips of land between the lakes and thus Give Finns a chip to bargain with. -It’s well known here that High Command knew that the Germans would not succeed.

How could the Hight Command know about that if the Germans succesfully conquered the USSR untill the november of 1941?

We were 4,2 million, Soviets were 140 million. That’s why.

Really.
And what abpout 150++ millions of GErmans and its Europeans allies?( Plus the resources of occuped France and Chehoslovakia)?

False. German weapons came late in the war, as Germans tried to convinec Finland to keep fighting.
At First, Finns bought Curtiss-75, Morane-Saulnier 406/410 and other material Which Germans had gained from the Western Front.
Later Finns bought Me-109 G planes and StuG-III Assault Guns, and during the massive Soviet assault we bought “Armor fists”(panzerFaust) and “Armor horrors”(Panzerschreck).
Finns also Bough 15 of the `Panzer IV ausf J´, 5 million Finnmarks per piece, though these were used only in Lappland War.

And what about ammo?
Coulld the single finnish state ammo plan produce enought for the finish Army?

-Germans sold, and did not supplie, because we really did not use that much German materia, but that of Soviet.
We can’t hold what we did not upkeep.

Soviets also buy the supplies for gold and in credit - but this rather mean the “Supplies” during the war.

Hungarians and Romanians. Hungary actally had slipped into a dictatorship, but tried to gain independence then, and later. ¤sigh¤ They are kin to Finns, and I feel sorry that they had to endure so much.

But this is very significant you still don’t feel sorry for the other slavs who were slaughtered by Nazy.
With help of armies of its allies, right?

But, we were never Allied to Axis. And Flight Group Kuhlmey Helped in pin-point accurate ground support. The only German forces which took part in those battles

Alas …
Even the BRitish/american Wiki could not hide the fact that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Diplomatic_manoeuvres

Finland’s participation in the war brought major benefits to Nazi Germany. The Soviet fleet was blockaded in the Gulf of Finland, so that the Baltic was freed for the training of German submarine crews as well as for German shipping, especially for the transport of the vital iron ore from northern Sweden, and nickel and rare metals needed in steel processing from the Petsamo area. The Finnish front secured the northern flank of the German Army Group North in the Baltic states. The sixteen Finnish divisions tied down numerous Soviet troops, put pressure on Leningrad — although Mannerheim refused to attack — and threatened the Murmansk railway
…
Because Finland belonged to the Anti-Comintern Pact and signed other agreements with Germany, Italy and Japan, the Allies characterized Finland as one of the Axis Powers

SO whatever our finnish friend think - the finnish army has provided a great miliary help for Nazy.
Besides the Finns supplied GErmany also with success with strategic materials for the few years.

Political conditions were hard to dodge and war against th Germans effectively destroyed ALL of Lappland. After that, Karelia was lost, Lappland was in ruins and Soviets demanded ridiculous amounts of money. THat’s not some, that’s too much.

Ricidilous amounts of money?
As i know Stalin dmanded 600 mln. Allies agreed with 300 mln.
Is it so much for the Soviet side that has received the Leningrad in ruins with ONLY 20% survived of pre-war population?And half of russian population of Eastern Karelia that was treated to death?
Really its strange fact that you think that 300 mln is much.

(Have you heard about the Ice-Breaker ships and their saunas? That was hilarious episode.)
.

Oh no , i have not read it yet.
You see, how many episodes we still unaware about this war:)

#82

True.

But sorry …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Finnish_occupation_policy

So as we could conclude the death rate in finnish camp was 29%.:slight_smile: In you mind this look like the therapeutic- sanatorium, not death-camp:).Kind finnish care.
Sure you right in GErmans camps the death rate was about 60% for the period 1941-45.So the SOviet POWs in Finnish camp should be quite happy.
Nope, I did not think that camps were leisure places, but they sure as hell were not concentration camps. Did you forget that camps were populated by children, women and elderly.

Oh dastard soviets…
They demand the blood…
But what about 4 000 of civils treated to death and murdered during the occupation of Eastenr Karelia?
Soviets demanded normal Finnish political people and soldiers into trials. Soviets did not care about law or just. That is why the convicted are called “sijaiskärsijä”=substitute sufferers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War-responsibility_trials_in_Finland

Oh i even did not guess that finnish population dropped quickly to the half of pre-war figure like Russian civils were reduced since 1941 till the summer 1942?Really the finns suffered just like the russians in Karelia?
Coz the finnish source give the figures of russian population in 24 000 in 1941 and ONLY 15 000 in 1942
According the :
Laine, Antti, Suur-Suomen kahdet kasvot, 1982, ISBN 951-1-06947-0, Otava
^ Maanpuolustuskorkeakoulun historian laitos, Jatkosodan historia 1-6, 1994
Perhaeps the fact that population calculation was done better? Finns did die during the famine, while men and horses were in the Front.

Oh nice humanism. And what about 500 000 of civils in Leningrad?
Why so kind finns did not leave them food?
Molotovs breadbaskets… Not our civilians and we did not harm them.

So it was Karelian land right?They ONLY the legitime owners of those lands.
what about finnish occupation of those lands ?Western Katrelia?
Legimate. That is the key.
Soviets claimed Karelia through brute force, while Karelians fled. Karelians are a tribe of Finns, so there cannot be a “finnish occupation of Karelia”. Eastern Karelia simply had so few Finns left that those lands could just as well belong to the Russians.

How could the Hight Command know about that if the Germans succesfully conquered the USSR untill the november of 1941?
Because Mannerheim was a soldier of the Tsar-Russia when it still stood, he saw painfully clearly the numerous mistakes which took place in the initial phazes of the invasion. He also knew the Russian mindset.

Really.
And what abpout 150++ millions of GErmans and its Europeans allies?( Plus the resources of occuped France and Chehoslovakia)?
As I said, French Morane-Saulnier 406/410, French bought Curtiss Hawk-75.
Front which Finns had was part of the Barbarosa, but least we forget, Finns did not attack until Soviets made Bomb-sorties.
-Also, Finnish High Command knew that Northern Front would not move.(up in Petsamo)
Barbarosa was doomed from the start, but it still went well at it’s first stages.

And what about ammo?
Coulld the single finnish state ammo plan produce enought for the finish Army?
We did not use German weapons.
Jesh, Finns had enough ammo during Continuation war. War-booty from Soviets was in extended use.

Soviets also buy the supplies for gold and in credit - but this rather mean the “Supplies” during the war.
Huh? Allied helped Soviets, and Westerns tend to overestimate the supplies and Soviets downplay it.
-What supplies you meant?

But this is very significant you still don’t feel sorry for the other slavs who were slaughtered by Nazy.
With help of armies of its allies, right?
Slavs are not kin, but still the suffering of Slavics is sad too.
But in the end, Slavs did not had to suffer like Hungarians had to, endure the occupation for so long.

Alas …
Even the BRitish/american Wiki could not hide the fact that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Diplomatic_manoeuvres

SO whatever our finnish friend think - the finnish army has provided a great miliary help for Nazy.
That aid was so selfish as it ever could. Red Navy blockade aided us.
-And Wikipedia is not British/U.S. I like wiki as a source, because articles are inspected.

Besides the Finns supplied GErmany also with success with strategic materials for the few years.
Petsamo nickel. Soviet greed was no different than German. That Nickel deposit was the only valuable ore found in Finland and Soviets wanted it, no matter what.

Ricidilous amounts of money?
As i know Stalin dmanded 600 mln. Allies agreed with 300 mln.
Is it so much for the Soviet side that has received the Leningrad in ruins with ONLY 20% survived of pre-war population?And half of russian population of Eastern Karelia that was treated to death?
Really its strange fact that you think that 300 mln is much.

For Soviet who invaded. For Soviets who caused it all.
We did not start anything, but we who lost more than Soviets were made to pay.
-And Eastern Karelia was not halved from it’s population, do see it again. ALL of Finnish Karelia was emptied from population.

Oh no , i have not read it yet.
You see, how many episodes we still unaware about this war:)
Finnish built Ice-breakers were constructed after the wars as part of the reparations.
Finnish laid schematics and plans was inspected by Soviet delegation, and they demanded that Finns would replace the wooden seating in the sauna into Copper platings, because they wanted only the best to go into the Soviet Union.
Finnish dock-workers were roundeyed, but agreed to the demands and sure enough, replaced the wooden sauna seats with copper plating.
Then they heated the sauna up, and notified the delegation that ice-breakers first sauna-round was in their use.
–After the most painful(and satisfying) sceams, Soviets agreed that the seats should be altered back into the original wooden ones.

#83

So many quotes…and none for my question, I feel sad. :neutral:

#84

No , here i mean just the concentration camps for POW’s.Accordinf the finnish datas the death rate in here was 29%. The concentration camps for civiliances is the other matter.

Soviets demanded normal Finnish political people and soldiers into trials. Soviets did not care about law or just. That is why the convicted are called “sijaiskärsijä”=substitute sufferers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War-responsibility_trials_in_Finland

Oh agains that dastard soviets:)
They did not care about law…

Unlike other nations that were declared guilty, Finland was allowed to conduct the trials in Finland under Finnish (retroactive) law with Finnish judges.

The law limited criminal liability to the highest leadership; only politicians and the Finnish war-time ambassador in Berlin, Toivo Mikael Kivimäki, could be prosecuted.

The trial started at November 15. The Allied Control Commission, which had a tight grip over Finland, set up a committee to observe the trials and interfered on numerous occasions before the trials ended in February of 1946.

It is often rumoured that Joseph Stalin personally prevented the Finnish marshal and future president Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim from being charged in the trials.

Terrible bloody soviets demand to judge the poor finnish leaders , according the soft finnish law:)BTW do yo accidentally know where did the comride Stalin loves to the Mannerheim come from ?

Full list of the indicted and their convictions:

Risto Ryti, president, 10 years hard labor
Johan Wilhelm Rangell, prime minister, 6 years prison
Edwin Linkomies, prime minister, 5.5 years
Väinö Tanner, minister, 5.5 years
Henrik Ramsay, minister, 2.5 years
Antti Kukkonen, minister, 2 years
Tyko Reinikka, minister, 2 years

Oh the so bloody sentences - 2-5 years in prison for the ministers . In finnish prison.:slight_smile:
What a humanism

Toivo Mikael Kivimäki, ambassador, 5 years Perhaeps the fact that population calculation was done better? Finns did die during the famine, while men and horses were in the Front.

And how many finns die during the famine? 10-20% or maybe 50 % of initial population ( like the russians in camps)

Molotovs breadbaskets… Not our civilians and we did not harm them.

Wrong - you have harmed them a lot, helping the GErmans hold the 16 soviet infantry divisions tied in the North.

Legimate. That is the key.
Soviets claimed Karelia through brute force, while Karelians fled. Karelians are a tribe of Finns, so there cannot be a “finnish occupation of Karelia”. Eastern Karelia simply had so few Finns left that those lands could just as well belong to the Russians.

Can’t agree absolutly.
In the Eastern Karelia is a bit different from the western
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelians

During the 19th century, Finnish nationalists came to see the Russian Karelians as their “brethren”. However, the Russian Karelians decided to cultivate their own language and national identity.
The Karelians of Finland considered themselves as Finns by nationality and Karelians by heritage or as a subnational designation.
…
The Russian Karelians, living in the Republic of Karelia, are nowadays rapidly being absorbed into the Russian population. This process began several decades ago. For example, it has been estimated that even between the 1959 and 1970 Soviet censuses, nearly 30 percent of those who were enumerated as Karelian by self-identification in 1959 changed their self-identification to Russian 11 years later

As you could see the Eastern Ortodoxy Karelians pretty good see themself as separte from finns tribe, that succesfully have integrated into the russian society.

Because Mannerheim was a soldier of the Tsar-Russia when it still stood, he saw painfully clearly the numerous mistakes which took place in the initial phazes of the invasion. He also knew the Russian mindset.

Aha;)
So if he knew the russian mindset to come the Eastern Karelia back( as well as all the territories of 1940) - why he attacked the USSR with Germans?
I think the more realistic scenario is - he simply hoped for the quick Germans victory and thus all the captured lands should be stay as finnish.
Besides the Russian historians Barishnikov in his book “Leningrad’s siege and Finland: 1941-44”
http://v-n-baryshnikov.narod.ru/blokada.html
documantary confirmed tha fact that Finnish gov planned to move the troops further , till the Neva ruver.
In occasion if GErmans attack of city would succesfull.
So the Mannerhaim has no influence at this process, but he act in the bestt finnish interest according current situation- so he was mistaken finally allowing the Nazy-Finnish alliance.

As I said, French Morane-Saulnier 406/410, French bought Curtiss Hawk-75.
Front which Finns had was part of the Barbarosa, but least we forget, Finns did not attack until Soviets made Bomb-sorties.

Oh sure thay did not attack, but why in this way they have mined the Finnish gulf and closed the russian baltic fleet in first day of GErman-Soviet war 22 june:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Outbreak_of_the_war
Do not play a naive please.

-We did not use German weapons.
Jesh, Finns had enough ammo during Continuation war. War-booty from Soviets was in extended use.

The soviet war booty was not enough for the 3 years compain.
And you used the GErmans wearpon ( for instance German mashin-guns and aa-tank means)

Huh? Allied helped Soviets, and Westerns tend to overestimate the supplies and Soviets downplay it.
-What supplies you meant?

I mean the supplies of military goods, whatever for gold or lend lise( in credit).

That aid was so selfish as it ever could. Red Navy blockade aided us.
-And Wikipedia is not British/U.S. I like wiki as a source, because articles are inspected.

if you would be attentive the different languages pages of Wiki give the bit different source and points of view.
But this is good fact that you admit the English Wiki- so i think you will not deny any more that Finland was pretty good Nazy ally till the 1944.

Petsamo nickel. Soviet greed was no different than German. That Nickel deposit was the only valuable ore found in Finland and Soviets wanted it, no matter what.

So if the Soviets wanted it - you prefere to give it the Nazy who used it not just agains soviets but also agains Allies:)The Nicel was a very valuable ore for Nazy industry.

For Soviet who invaded. For Soviets who caused it all.

So you desided to get retribution for the Soviets via the alliance with Nazy?

We did not start anything, but we who lost more than Soviets were made to pay.

I do not think that you lost more then Liningrad population, seriously.

-And Eastern Karelia was not halved from it’s population, do see it again. ALL of Finnish Karelia was emptied from population.

No, in Wiki clearly demonstrated that from 24 000 of population were reduced twice in the 1942.
And there was NEVER Finnish Karelia. It was the Ortodoxy Eastern Karelia that suffer great casualties from Finnish Racist occupation policy with , see the finnish historian
Helge Sepljala “Finland as occupant 1941-44”
http://lib.swarog.ru/books/history/ist2/wojny/03finnsk/finn0101.php

Finnish built Ice-breakers were constructed after the wars as part of the reparations.
Finnish laid schematics and plans was inspected by Soviet delegation, and they demanded that Finns would replace the wooden seating in the sauna into Copper platings, because they wanted only the best to go into the Soviet Union.
Finnish dock-workers were roundeyed, but agreed to the demands and sure enough, replaced the wooden sauna seats with copper plating.
Then they heated the sauna up, and notified the delegation that ice-breakers first sauna-round was in their use.
–After the most painful(and satisfying) sceams, Soviets agreed that the seats should be altered back into the original wooden ones.

Ha HA Ha :slight_smile:
Good one:)
The Copper seatings in sauna …
We call the hot sauna as “Banij”.

#85

This is a question which the two sides give different answer.
Finns say that the very existance of our nation and kin was at stake.
Soviets said/Russians say that Winter War was mearly an attempt to sieze more land in order to protect Leningrad.

Finns can present the orchestra instruments, Soviet orders to halt in the Swedish border and the fact that Soviets invaded throughout the borderline, and attempted to claim Petsamo Nickel, cut Finland in half from the Oulu heights and seize the Viipuri/Vyborg railroad- and roadnetwork which would have granted quick access to inner Finland and Helsinki.
-I think I’ll let the Russians say the counterclaim?

P.S. I have not yet had any luck finding the maps via internet. So either I’ll have to take my words back in that or visit there myself.

#86

POWs at first got minimal rations, but after Finnish doctors examined the prisoners, they reported angrily that it was too little. Situation with rations did improve later on.
During Continuation war, POWs who were deemed trustworthy actually got a chance to work in Finnish farms as a normal farmhand.

Oh agains that dastard soviets:)
They did not care about law…

They really didn’t. Stalins puppet goverment was evidence enough.
-Later on, after WW2, Soviet delegation which monitored reparations and FDF downstanding lived in the finest hotel in Helsinki and thought that their powers exeeded that of the Finnish Goverment. Disgusting bastards…

Terrible bloody soviets demand to judge the poor finnish leaders , according the soft finnish law:)BTW do yo accidentally know where did the comride Stalin loves to the Mannerheim come from ?
I don’t know, possibly it has something to do with stubborn fighting, Stalin even toasted our FDF after the wars.

Oh the so bloody sentences - 2-5 years in prison for the ministers . In finnish prison.:slight_smile:
What a humanism
Political figures… How about the normal soldiers? Larry Thorne was among the many who got long sentences, and had to exile himself after the wars and prison.
Rytis health was damaged during the sentence and he was released due to the poor condition, and died shortly thereafter.

And how many finns die during the famine? 10-20% or maybe 50 % of initial population ( like the russians in camps)
I don’t know the exact figures, but don’t you be ridiculous, mortality in the camps was not 50%.
-Maybe I’ll start digging info about that.

Wrong - you have harmed them a lot, helping the GErmans hold the 16 soviet infantry divisions tied in the North.
You could have made a peace with Finland any time. It was a possibility, due to the fact that we were not Allies to Germany.

Can’t agree absolutly.
In the Eastern Karelia is a bit different from the western
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelians
Yes, the Karelians were split as Catholism and Orthodox collided along with Swedish and Novgorodian influence. (did you know that Old Religion was a legimite religion until the protestant reformation?)
Karelians who had allied themselves with Novgorod migrated to her areas. But that really does not change their kinship.
[-Because the fact remains that Swedish bloodlines did not mix with ours. 4%of current Finns have swedish blood in them. I’d imagine something similar went on in Eastern Karelia.]

As you could see the Eastern Ortodoxy Karelians pretty good see themself as separte from finns tribe, that succesfully have integrated into the russian society.
Neither Finns, nor Russians. Most of them did fight in the Soviet side. Their most valuable asset was the language.
And Soviets did their best to destroy any other kinships. Inkeri-folk were ferried to Siberia.

Aha;)
So if he knew the russian mindset to come the Eastern Karelia back( as well as all the territories of 1940) - why he attacked the USSR with Germans?
To get back the lands Soviets had stolen in Winter War. To reach the lake line in order to have realistic area to defend and have bargain chip in peace negotiations.
For us, Barbarosa presented ideal chance to take back our land.

I think the more realistic scenario is - he simply hoped for the quick Germans victory and thus all the captured lands should be stay as finnish.
Have you heard the tapes in which Hitler tries to convince Mannerheim to do his bidding? That really lights things up.

Besides the Russian historians Barishnikov in his book “Leningrad’s siege and Finland: 1941-44”
http://v-n-baryshnikov.narod.ru/blokada.html
documantary confirmed tha fact that Finnish gov planned to move the troops further , till the Neva ruver.
In occasion if GErmans attack of city would succesfull.
Can’t read Kyrillic… I’d like to read it though.
Finnish goverment was compleatly unrealistic, and I am venturing a guess that High Command would have vetoed the decidion, as we had not enough troops, or means to supplie, for such a long strech.

So the Mannerhaim has no influence at this process, but he act in the bestt finnish interest according current situation- so he was mistaken finally allowing the Nazy-Finnish alliance.

Mannerheim was a soldier, not a politician. He also thought the best intrest of Finland. And we still were no allies to Axis.

Oh sure thay did not attack, but why in this way they have mined the Finnish gulf and closed the russian baltic fleet in first day of GErman-Soviet war 22 june:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Outbreak_of_the_war
Do not play a naive please.
Mining took place before Soviet bombers made their sorties, that is compleatly true.
But Hitler in his speech claimed that we’d fight alongside them in Barbarosa. Finns corrected this and did not move or engage until Soviets attacked us.
-And Red Navy was important in defence of the City, you could thank for that!

The soviet war booty was not enough for the 3 years compain.
And you used the GErmans wearpon ( for instance German mashin-guns and aa-tank means)

¤FDF primary rifle was Mosin-Nagant.
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl03-e.htm
-They had been upgraded locally, but every falled Soviet rifleman gave more ammo.
¤FDF primary LMG was Degtyarev DP, “emma”. http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg34-e.htm

We produced ammo to our rifles, and did not use any German SMG, LMG, HMG or rifles.
Only during the Tali-Ihantala we used the “armor fists” and “armor horrors” from Germany.

By “aa-tank”, do you mean the Anti-Aircraft? Had none. Or StuG-III?
-already posted a link on that.

I mean the supplies of military goods, whatever for gold or lend lise( in credit).
Germany was the only possibility. There were no other to buy war-material from.
-But fact still remains that the most important supplie bought from Germany
was grain.

if you would be attentive the different languages pages of Wiki give the bit different source and points of view.
But this is good fact that you admit the English Wiki- so i think you will not deny any more that Finland was pretty good Nazy ally till the 1944.
Wiki has articles which are examined beforehand(good thing in the net), and we still were no allies to Axis.

So if the Soviets wanted it - you prefere to give it the Nazy who used it not just agains soviets but also agains Allies:)The Nicel was a very valuable ore for Nazy industry.
There is a difference when Soviets steal using brute force, or Germans who pay for it.

So you desided to get retribution for the Soviets via the alliance with Nazy?
Why didn’t U.S. declare war against us? You stole from us, we wanted it back. Sometimes it’s as simple as that.

I do not think that you lost more then Liningrad population, seriously.
Leningrad is a City in SU. Viipuri was the capital of Karelians. Second largest City in Finland.

No, in Wiki clearly demonstrated that from 24 000 of population were reduced twice in the 1942.
And there was NEVER Finnish Karelia.
So, all the 420 000 Karelians are a mirage? Finnish Karelia was on this side of the old border.

It was the Ortodoxy Eastern Karelia that suffer great casualties from Finnish Racist occupation policy with , see the finnish historian
Helge Sepljala “Finland as occupant 1941-44”
http://lib.swarog.ru/books/history/ist2/wojny/03finnsk/finn0101.php
Communists are as trustworthy as nazis.
Don’t take brownnosing SU as a fact.
-You yourself were very clear that camps in Eastern Karelia were made to house and isolate Russian folk, not Karelian.

Ha HA Ha :slight_smile:
Good one:)
The Copper seatings in sauna …
We call the hot sauna as “Banij”.
I have read that you have a certain name for tool-knife, which derives from our language. “puukko”, in Finnish.

#87

Fennica: Can’t read Kyrillic… I’d like to read it though.
Finnish goverment was compleatly unrealistic, and I am venturing a guess that High Command would have vetoed the decidion, as we had not enough troops, or means to supplie, for such a long strech.

The book “Finland and the siege of Leningrad 1941-1944” by N.Baryshnikov was printed in both S.Petersburg and Helsinki in 2002.

The Finnish name is: Baryshnikov Nikolai: Leningradin piiritys ja Suomi 1941-1944 ISBN 952-5412-11-3

And this seem to be the english edition:


Kustantaja: Johan Bäckman Institute
Ilmoitettu julkaisupäivä/vuosi: 2005
ISBN: 9789525412291
Hinta: 29,00 euroa
Saatavuus: Tilattavissa, toimitusaika normaalia pitempi

#88

All those orchestra is nothing but fary tells that ABSOLUTLY ignore the political situations in Europe at moment.The nobody even planned to capture the Petsamo- Britain never let it do for Stalin:)
Actually the Stalin admit the situation of full collapse of Finnish gov - theefore he prepeared the OWN gov for finland.
Finns were almost destroyed in the 1940 - thay have no more ablity to resist. However Stalin did not finished them- coz the did not wish to began the war with Britain ( in this case the Bratain and France could turn against Soviets together with Nazy)

P.S. I have not yet had any luck finding the maps via internet. So either I’ll have to take my words back in that or visit there myself.

And yo will not find any maps for you claims
Coz thre were never exists:)

#89

Sure thay has began to care about POWs later.
Coz NAzy began to lose the war in the East:)

They really didn’t. Stalins puppet goverment was evidence enough.
-Later on, after WW2, Soviet delegation which monitored reparations and FDF downstanding lived in the finest hotel in Helsinki and thought that their powers exeeded that of the Finnish Goverment. Disgusting bastards…
I don’t know, possibly it has something to do with stubborn fighting, Stalin even toasted our FDF after the wars.

Soviets lived in Helsinki and though their power exceed the Finnish Gov?
So whay in this way they let the finnish court judge the finnish war criminals?
Again contradiction?

Political figures… How about the normal soldiers? Larry Thorne was among the many who got long sentences, and had to exile himself after the wars and prison.
Rytis health was damaged during the sentence and he was released due to the poor condition, and died shortly thereafter.

Yes , how about war criminals who were responsble for the murdering or tortures of ivilis?
Why the normal soldie LAry Thorne were judged by the Finnish court meanwhile the many of war criminals were covered?

I don’t know the exact figures, but don’t you be ridiculous, mortality in the camps was not 50%.
-Maybe I’ll start digging info about that.

So start to dig although WIki for the beginning:)
There were clearly wrote- from the 24 000 of the civils in camps in the 1941- only 15 000 rest in 1942.

You could have made a peace with Finland any time. It was a possibility, due to the fact that we were not Allies to Germany.

Really, we could?
And do you think the Finland , that signed the military treaty with Axis were free to sing a peace with USSR any time:)
Who did let them to do it?Hitler?

Yes, the Karelians were split as Catholism and Orthodox collided along with Swedish and Novgorodian influence. (did you know that Old Religion was a legimite religion until the protestant reformation?)

What is the Old Religion/

Karelians who had allied themselves with Novgorod migrated to her areas. But that really does not change their kinship.

Not just migrate but assimilate also.So today they are pretty good part of Russian society.

[-Because the fact remains that Swedish bloodlines did not mix with ours. 4%of current Finns have swedish blood in them. I’d imagine something similar went on in Eastern Karelia.]

Not/ the many of Karlians assimulated with russians. However there are still the cities with Karelian native majority in Eastern Karelia.

Neither Finns, nor Russians. Most of them did fight in the Soviet side. Their most valuable asset was the language.
And Soviets did their best to destroy any other kinships. Inkeri-folk were ferried to Siberia.

Nobody did not send them to Syberia:)
Coz they were not the considered as “class enemies” by soviets.

To get back the lands Soviets had stolen in Winter War. To reach the lake line in order to have realistic area to defend and have bargain chip in peace negotiations.
For us, Barbarosa presented ideal chance to take back our land.

Sure you rigth, the Barbarossa was ideal for the Finns:)
The full destruction of the Eastern slavs, slayghtering of whole peoples is the and capturing the Russian lands was in the best finnish interests at that time.

Have you heard the tapes in which Hitler tries to convince Mannerheim to do his bidding? That really lights things up.

I did not hear this tape ,but obviously not just this light things up.
The position of Mannergaime were clever indeed for all of us- if GErmany won - the Finland saved the captured lands for themself and being the Nazy ally could hope for the further presents from GErmany.
For instance , after the full distruction of Leningrad ( as Hitler planned)- the finnish bother should be moved to he Neva river . And the idia of the GReat Finland would not seem so fantastic.

Can’t read Kyrillic… I’d like to read it though.
Finnish goverment was compleatly unrealistic, and I am venturing a guess that High Command would have vetoed the decidion, as we had not enough troops, or means to supplie, for such a long strech.
Mannerheim was a soldier, not a politician. He also thought the best intrest of Finland. And we still were no allies to Axis.

Yes he though about best interest of Finland, and coz in the mid 1941 the GRmany crashed the SOviets - he joined to the Axis in hope to “get it piece of pie” from Russian land.

Mining took place before Soviet bombers made their sorties, that is compleatly true.
But Hitler in his speech claimed that we’d fight alongside them in Barbarosa. Finns corrected this and did not move or engage until Soviets attacked us.

So initially you mined the Soviets port together with GErmans - and then you “suddenly” were attacked by Soviets:)What a surprise?

-And Red Navy was important in defence of the City, you could thank for that!

Don’t you wish to say that it was a finns who closed the Red Navy in a gulf specially to save it for defence of LEningrad?

We produced ammo to our rifles, and did not use any German SMG, LMG, HMG or rifles.
Only during the Tali-Ihantala we used the “armor fists” and “armor horrors” from Germany.

So you did used it finally, right.

By “aa-tank”, do you mean the Anti-Aircraft? Had none. Or StuG-III?
-already posted a link on that.

i mean anti-tank wearpons , not anti-aircraft.
So again the Grmans Panzerfaust was very usefull for the finns , wasn’t it?

Germany was the only possibility. There were no other to buy war-material from.
-But fact still remains that the most important supplie bought from Germany
was grain.

Sure you have no other way to buy war materials - the Bratain has bagan the blocade for finland.
But this is direct resault of finnish ally with nazy, we should not forget it.

Wiki has articles which are examined beforehand(good thing in the net), and we still were no allies to Axis.

Soread Wiki more attentive please- there a good text from a Wiki about it in my previous post.

There is a difference when Soviets steal using brute force, or Germans who pay for it.

Soviet prefer you to change those lands for other territory.
And you are rather wrong if you thing that NAzy was so gentle for other peoples( they killed a millions).You think as the tupical nazy ally here.This is probably sort of revisionism.

Why didn’t U.S. declare war against us? You stole from us, we wanted it back. Sometimes it’s as simple as that.

are you kidding?
And why didn’t USA declare war even agains NAzy neither 1939 nor 1941?
Does it mean that if USA did not declare war for Hitler ( till the moment when Germany declared the war for USA ) the Germany was not a agressor according your logic?

Leningrad is a City in SU. Viipuri was the capital of Karelians. Second largest City in Finland.

Vuborg is the city-centre of Karelans republic today.

So, all the 420 000 Karelians are a mirage? Finnish Karelia was on this side of the old border.

But did somebody round up them in the camps and threat as subhumans in 1939 by the soviets?
They were deported into the Finland coz they were hostitle for the Soviets, but nobody killed and executed them, right.

Communists are as trustworthy as nazis.
Don’t take brownnosing SU as a fact.
-You yourself were very clear that camps in Eastern Karelia were made to house and isolate Russian folk, not Karelian.

You even did not notice that source that i read is the book of finnish historian
Helge Sepljala “Finland as occupant 1941-44”
http://lib.swarog.ru/books/history/i...k/finn0101.php
Do not look as a Soviet Porpoganda, right?
i don’t know how to find out it in english.

I have read that you have a certain name for tool-knife, which derives from our language. “puukko”, in Finnish.

Yea this is perhaps “Pika” - but this mean rather “spear” in russian.
Well i/m not surprised we have a lot of common name things- we lived in a impire for 200 years.

#90

Is it just me, or are you trying to bring this into a mudhole of insults?
Nice, blaming insults wraped in pretty smiles is must that you seem to bring to the table.
(and for the record; I am affected by them, meaning, I AM F¤¤¤¤NG PISSED)
-Back up your claim that Finns began to tend POWs better only after the Soviets gained upper hand, or take back your words.

Soviets lived in Helsinki and though their power exceed the Finnish Gov?
So whay in this way they let the finnish court judge the finnish war criminals?
Again contradiction?
They felt that they could bully around as they pleased. Delegation IIRC was composed of British and Soviets, but British mearly observed.
-Back the underlined, or back off. Who were the criminals of war, what did they do, when did they do it…

Yes , how about war criminals who were responsble for the murdering or tortures of ivilis?
Why the normal soldie LAry Thorne were judged by the Finnish court meanwhile the many of war criminals were covered?
Back your claims(underlined) of BACK OFF. Finns were not saints, but sure as hell were not avenging animals.

So start to dig although WIki for the beginning:)
There were clearly wrote- from the 24 000 of the civils in camps in the 1941- only 15 000 rest in 1942.
In the areas of Eastern Karelia were 85 000 people. Of these the non-Finnos were transferred into camps. Roughly 20% died in them. As previously stated, partially because of shortage of food, partially because of the elderly. Disease kills in that sort of camps. Feel free to skim through any nations POW camps and see the mortality rates.

Really, we could?
And do you think the Finland , that signed the military treaty with Axis were free to sing a peace with USSR any time:)
Who did let them to do it?Hitler?
Because we had no military alliance with Axis, we could have.

What is the Old Religion/
Original religion of the Finnos. before Swedish influenced Catholism or Novgorodian backed Orthodoxalism, it was the main religion of the Finno-kins.
-Later Swedes and Russians did their best to annihilate any evidence of the kindoms of old in Finland, and very nearly succeeded.

Not just migrate but assimilate also.So today they are pretty good part of Russian society.
If they exist at all. Most Finno-tribes have been destroyed in Russia. Your current President made the last strike and their language is banned.

Not/ the many of Karlians assimulated with russians. However there are still the cities with Karelian native majority in Eastern Karelia.
All Finno-Karelians fled, but could you point the areas where there sill is Eastern Karelians left?

Nobody did not send them to Syberia:)
Coz they were not the considered as “class enemies” by soviets.
Both father and mother of the family were sent there, along with every other inkeri Soviets found. Sorry, but I rather believe first hand evidence and scars, than Soviet claims.

Sure you rigth, the Barbarossa was ideal for the Finns:)
The full destruction of the Eastern slavs, slayghtering of whole peoples is the and capturing the Russian lands was in the best finnish interests at that time.
Operation Barbarosa was an opportunity for us to get our lands back. Lands stolen by the Soviets.
-Funny part is that YOU make it seem like we’d feast upon the blood of the Slavs.

I did not hear this tape ,but obviously not just this light things up.
The position of Mannergaime were clever indeed for all of us- if GErmany won - the Finland saved the captured lands for themself and being the Nazy ally could hope for the further presents from GErmany.
For instance , after the full distruction of Leningrad ( as Hitler planned)- the finnish bother should be moved to he Neva river . And the idia of the GReat Finland would not seem so fantastic.
Back up that claim or take it back. Finns were lauging at the proposal. We are a small nation, Leningrad alone had more people in it than there were us.
We really have no need for such areas, and we still were not allies to Axis. If you repeat the same lie over and over, it will not turn into reality, no matter how much you’d like it.
-You are thinking Soviet fashion.

Yes he though about best interest of Finland, and coz in the mid 1941 the GRmany crashed the SOviets - he joined to the Axis in hope to “get it piece of pie” from Russian land.
Still not Axis, and Mannerheim himself considered his home to be Jewel of the Baltic, St.Petersburg.
And as it is, Soviets shot the first shots at us, Hitler claimed that we’d fight alongside and gave Stalin an excuse which in turn gave Finns an excuse the attack.

So initially you mined the Soviets port together with GErmans - and then you “suddenly” were attacked by Soviets:)What a surprise?
Port, no. That would be the Germans. Blockades, yes. But mining the Coast of Estonia and Gulf of Finland, not any Soviet ports.

Don’t you wish to say that it was a finns who closed the Red Navy in a gulf specially to save it for defence of LEningrad?
In the real world, Finns wanted to barr Red Navy in order to be able to secure shipping lanes which were the living vein of Finland then.

So you did used it finally, right.
Anti-tank Guns, in the last battles against the Soviets. UUuuu, AAAaaa, what a crime.

i mean anti-tank wearpons , not anti-aircraft.
So again the Grmans Panzerfaust was very usefull for the finns , wasn’t it?
It did save a lot of close combat sappers lives. It did destroy many Soviet tanks. Yes, it was a good weapon.
-At first, you claimed that we used all German weapons(not even Germans allies got those). I proved you wrong, will you now say that we were Nazi because we used German Anti-tank weapons??
-Soviets then were capitalists, by using U.S. made fighters and trucks.

Sure you have no other way to buy war materials - the Bratain has bagan the blocade for finland.
But this is direct resault of finnish ally with nazy, we should not forget it.
Hmm, maybe you just don’t read what I say and read your own sources. Finns never declared any alliance with the Germans. Hitlers speech in the opening stages of Barbarosa did cause Britain to declare war, but as I have said, not all Allied did as Stalin hoped and declare war.

Soread Wiki more attentive please- there a good text from a Wiki about it in my previous post.
Or, you could just put it here.

Soviet prefer you to change those lands for other territory.
And you are rather wrong if you thing that NAzy was so gentle for other peoples( they killed a millions).You think as the tupical nazy ally here.This is probably sort of revisionism.
Soviets killed millions, and millions of their own. Stole lands.=good.
Nazis killed millions and caused millions of their own to die aswell=bad.
My opinion is that they are equally horrible.
-To give away valuabe mines because a bully wants them and will give a piece of Wilderness while has annexed every other nation after similar demands…
We would have been STUPID to believe in the good will of the demands.

are you kidding?
And why didn’t USA declare war even agains NAzy neither 1939 nor 1941?
Does it mean that if USA did not declare war for Hitler ( till the moment when Germany declared the war for USA ) the Germany was not a agressor according your logic?
So, when you stole, we should haev given more. Have to remeber that one.
the U.S. tried to stay clear from the war, and entered on Allied side when it did join in. But did not declare war against us. That tells something to most others.

Vuborg is the city-centre of Karelans republic today.
I haev read rants from other Russians how the town never was Finnish and how it was Liberated during WW2.
-Nice to liberate empty town and claim it forever part of SU.
-Republic of Karelia in just an area with in Federation of Russia. a Place where Finnish charity trucks were busy going in in the 90’s.

But did somebody round up them in the camps and threat as subhumans in 1939 by the soviets?
They were deported into the Finland coz they were hostitle for the Soviets, but nobody killed and executed them, right.
…what.
We fled because Soviets would have wiped us all out. WE FLED, TO LIVE.

You even did not notice that source that i read is the book of finnish historian
Helge Sepljala “Finland as occupant 1941-44”
http://lib.swarog.ru/books/history/i...k/finn0101.php
Do not look as a Soviet Porpoganda, right?
i don’t know how to find out it in english.
As I said, there were quite a few Red historians in Finland. After the wars, veterans had to endure the hatered of the Finnish communists and got the honour they deserved as late as in the 90’s.
-Finns kept quiet bacause of te Communist threat looming in the East.

Yea this is perhaps “Pika” - but this mean rather “spear” in russian.
Well i/m not surprised we have a lot of common name things- we lived in a impire for 200 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NR-40
-Here’s something you would not think I’d say. Being part of the Tsars Russia was a blessing for the Finns.
Swedes used us as soldiers, protected their own lands using ours, exploited us.
Tsar mearly wanted good, obidient people.
-We were not part of the Russia, we were Grand Dutchy of Finland, answering only to the Tsar. No russians, no drafts.

#91

Fennica, can you tell us a bit about it?
Were they deported or accused of a anti-soviet actions?
What year did it happen? Where were they deported from/to?

#92

The father of my neighbours was sent to Arkangel, in a fishing commune. He really does not talk much about it, but did pick up a taste for dried fish from those times.
Only reason they could come up with was that they were not Russians, and Northern areas needed workhands.
Later the Inkeri were allowed to move back into their original areas, and there really is nothing more to that.

#93

Here is what I found about the Inkeri deportation.
First in Russian then English translation.

Павел ПОЛЯН “Не по своей воле : История и география принудительных миграций в СССР”.
Одним из первых крупных актов «зачистки» границ стало Постановление Бюро Ленинградского обкома ВКП(б) от 4 марта 1935 года о выселении финского населения из приграничной полосы, в то время вплотную примыкавшей к Ленинграду с северо–запада. В области в то время проживало около 200 тыс. финнов–ингерманландцев (или финнов–инкери, или ижорских финнов), существовали один национальный финский район (Куйвазовский) и десятки сельсоветов, около 500 финских колхозов (снабжавших ленинградцев овощами и молоком), 322 финские школы, сельхозтехникум, финское отделение в пединституте им. А. И. Герцена, рабфак при университете, финские газета и издательство.
Весной 1935 года практически все это было ликвидировано: первоочередной депортации подлежали все финны из 22-километровой приграничной полосы (3547 семей), а те, кто проживал в 100-километровой полосе в Ленинградской обл. и в 50-километровой в Карелии, тоже выселялись, но во вторую очередь. «Первая очередь» выселялась между 1 и 25 апреля, людей направляли в Таджикистан (около 1000 семей), Казахстан и Западную Сибирь (316 семей из Карелии). Во «вторую очередь» из одного только национального Куйвазовского района в течение суток выселили 22 тыс. чел., разорив таким образом более 100 деревень (выселяли, впрочем, не так далеко, главным образом в Вологодскую обл.). Общее число депортированных можно оценить приблизительно в 30 тыс. чел.

And here is in English:
[Pavel Polyan, “Against Their Will: A History and Geography of Forced Migrations in the USSR”, 2001](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Polian)
One of the big acts of clearing the area adjacent to the country border became the resolution issued by Leningrad Communist party center on 4 MArch 1935. It declared the replacement of the Finnish people from the border adjacent area, which at that time was located just next to Leningrad. There were app. 200.000 Finns-inrekies settled in the Leningrad region at that time. There existed one national Finnish district and tens of local Finnish local power representatives, about 500 Finnish kolkhoz (which provided vegitables and diary products to Leningrad), 322 Finnisn schools, agricultural school, Finnish faculty in the Pedagogical institute and Univercity, Finnish publishing house and news paper.

In the spring 1935 practicaly all of those were licvidated:
all the Finns residing within 22 km span from the border were subject to immediate deportation (3547 families), and those who resided within 100 km span in Leningrad region and 50 km span in Karelia were deported in the second place.

The first wave occured between 1 and 25 of April 1935. People were sent to Tadzhikistan (app. 1000 families), Kazahstan and Eastern Siberia (316 families from Karelia).

During the second wave, 22.000 people were deported within 1 day from the national Finnish district (Kuivazovski district) hereby leaving deserted more than 100 villages. Though these people were deported not as far as others - to Vologda region.
The total number of deported can be estimated to be app. 30.000 people.

Here is the diagram showing the general flows of the deported ethnic groups in the period 1929 - 1938.
[2] - Finno-Inkeri (1935).
[1a] [1б] - socially dangerous from Belorussia and Ukrain area (1929)
[3] - Poles and Germans. (1936)

You can preview this book at Google Book Search.
It should be on page 95 of the preview. But the pages 95-100 are unfortunately not shown online for free. :slight_smile:

#94

So about 30 000 were deported. In Syberia only 316 families, appr…1000-1200.
FOr the comparition the Finnish policy in occuped Eastern Karelia

So as you could see the Finns did the same thing , but worst.
They placed the peoples in to the concentration camps behind front line ( River Svir) as a hostages.

#95

Lets finish this descussion befor it would have bring the insult for both of us.

#96

The Policy in the occuper Eastern Karelia territories 1941-44
.http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Финская_оккупация_Карелии_в_1941—1944_гг.#.D0.9A.D0.BE.D0.BD.D1.86.D0.B5.D0.BD.D1.82.D1.80.D0.B0.D1.86.D0.B8.D0.BE.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8B.D0.B5_.D0.BB.D0.B0.D0.B3.D0.B5.D1.80.D1.8F

Всего на территории оккупированной Карелии действовало 13 финских концентрационных лагерей, через которые прошло 30 тысяч человек. Около трети из них погибло. В эту статистику не входят данные о лагерях военнопленных, первые из которых начали создавать ещё в июне 1941 года и режим в которых мало отличался от режима концентрационных лагерей.

…
Из-за плохого питания в финских концентрационных лагерях уровень смертности был очень высок, в 1942 году он был даже выше, чем в немецких концлагерях (13.7% против 10.5%)[2]. По финским данным во всех «переселенческих» лагерях с февраля 1942 года по июнь 1944 года умерли от 4 000 (примерно 90% из которых в 1942 году)[3] до 4600 [4] человек, или 3409 человек по персональным спискам, в то время как по свидетельству бывшего заключенного А.П.Коломенского (в обязанности которого входило вывозить и захоранивать трупы умерших из «переселенческого» лагеря №3) только за 8 месяцев с мая по декабрь 1942 года и только в этом лагере погибли 1 014 человек
…
There were 13 concentration camhs at all in Karelia, about 30 000 of peoples have passed though it.
At least 10 000 have perished.This datas do not include the Concentrations camps for POWs that have been build since summer 1941.
From the worst feeding the death rate in finnish concentrations camps was EVEN higher than in germans one- 13,7% agains 10,5%). Accodring the finnish datas since febriary of 1942 till the june 1944 the 4600 civils died in here.
However the testimonies of the former prisoners of camp №3 Kolomenskij - ONLY during the the period of may-december 1942 he transported 1 014 bodies to to cementry.

Sources:
Jatkosodan historia. H., 1994.
Antti Laine. Suuri-Suomen kahdet kasvot. H., 1982. ISBN 951-1-06947-0

#97

I found out the very interesting finnish site also.
http://www.mannerheim-line.com/kahonen/enterkahonen.htm
This is the personal photo-album of finnish Junior Sergeant (Alikersantti) Tauno Kähönen.
There a collection of his some quite interesting photos.
http://www.mannerheim-line.com/kahonen/gallery.htm

sign:Russians KIA at Aunus Isthmus. One of the killed is a woman. 1942
As we could see this is a russian unarmed soldiers ( probably wounded POWs) ,executed by finns.
The wonam in right - probably the medic personal member.Or simly civils that was “suspected”.

#98

Chevan,

I previously mentionedonly pre-war Inkeri deportation. But there was the second deportation after Barbarossa started.

Here is the quote from the same book:

http://www.memo.ru/history/deport/polyan2.htm#_VPID_17

Apart from Germans, Finns-Ineries were also subjected to preventive deportations. First time in 1935 from Leningrad region and Karelia. Second time together with Germans in September 1941 from Leningrad region.But not all the Inkeries were evacuated at thtat instans. The remaining ones were relocated from Leningrad region in March 1942 (9th and 26th of March): so between 27 and 29 of MArch 1942, 3.500 families (app. 9000 people). They were sent mainly to remote areas - Irkutsk area, Krasnoyarskiy region and Yakutia. Many were sent to the fishing settlements on river Lena and it’s tributaries. Finns were at first considered as administratively-relocated and only after 29 December 1944 they were assined status of “special category replaced” and were put under registration. On 3 April 1942 Natinal Defence committee declared that the active army units should be cleared of Finns and they should be moved to NKVD enginner units.

#99

OK
using the finnish datas - “only ⅓ of original population of 470 000 remained in East Karelia when the Finnish occupiers arrived, and only half of them were Karelians”
So in the 1941 there were about 160 000 of native Karelians. But getting your the figure 30 000 ( 1935)+ 9 000( 1941-42) deported of the Karelians we couldcomclude that pre-1935 popualtion was roughtely 20 000
So indeed just 40 000 from 200 000 were deported i.e. 20% of native population.
But as we could compare
Wiki told" About 30% (24,000) of remaining Russian population were confined in camps"
i.e the finns did the same thing - they rounded up the civils into the camps.
But if Karelians were send into the deep russian territories where they have a great chances to survive- the FINSS placed the some of Camps for civils near the front line.
Now do you undertsnad the difference of soviet and finnish approach:)

#100

[QUOTE]Chevan:
I did not hear this tape ,but obviously not just this light things up.
The position of Mannergaime were clever indeed for all of us- if GErmany won - the Finland saved the captured lands for themself and being the Nazy ally could hope for the further presents from GErmany.
For instance , after the full distruction of Leningrad ( as Hitler planned)- the finnish bother should be moved to he Neva river . And the idia of the GReat Finland would not seem so fantastic.

Fennica:
Back up that claim or take it back. Finns were lauging at the proposal. We are a small nation, Leningrad alone had more people in it than there were us.
We really have no need for such areas, and we still were not allies to Axis. If you repeat the same lie over and over, it will not turn into reality, no matter how much you’d like it.
-You are thinking Soviet fashion.[/QUOTE]

Fennica,

Can you please translate for us the following quote. Might be interesting.
“Näin kirjoitti presidentti (ei virassa) P.E. Svinhufvud Luumäellä 26.6.1943.
Hän otti myös kantaa Pietarin hävittämiseen 18.6.1943.
“Entäs Pietarin kaupunki ? Sillä ei Venäjästä irroitettuna enää ole elämisen mahdollisuuksia, vaan se on hävitettävä ja sen asukkaat siirrettävä Venäjälle. Siellä heillä on tilaa, kun sota on tehnyt suuren loven venäläiseen kansanainekseen .Tämä ei ole imperialismia vaan pahuuden pesän puhdistamista.””

and this one:

"18.12 Iltasanomat otsikoi: Sotarikos? Pitkään salatun kuvan mukaan Suomalaiset pakottivat Venäläisiä sotavankeja miinanpolkijoiksi. Kuvatekstissä venäläisvangit polkevat miinoja miinakentässä Vuosalmella 2.9.1941, ja samaa tapahtui mm. Hautavaarassa 4.9.1941. Seitsemän miinanpolkijan tiedot löytyivät SPR:n rekisteristä, ja kaikki nämä olivat kuolleet aikana 10.10.1941 - 3.7.1942.

Sotahistorioitsija, everstiluutnantti Ari Raunos toteaa: Suomalaiset olivat talvisodasta katkeria. Yksilötasolla käyttäydyttiin aika primitiivisesti. Yleisestikin vankien suuri kuolleisuus heijastuu katkeruudesta, jota Suomalaiset tunsivat.

Tähän kaikkeen saa tottua. Sodassa on tämän päivän näkökulmasta tapahtunut vaikka kuinka paljon käsittämättömiä asiota.

Tutkija Timo Salmi sanoo: Sodan olosuhteet -nälkä ja vaikeat olot- vääristävät ja raaistavat. Ihminen muuttuu pedoksi kolmessa päivässä, ja joukkoon mahtuu myös sadisteja.

Venäläisten sotavankien kohtelusta ja oloista vastasi kotijoukkojen esikunnan sotavankitoimiston päällikkö kapteeni Eljas Erkko. Sotavankien kohtelusta on kirjoittanut kirjan Eino Peltola. Kirja on järkyttävä teos, joka perustuu salaisiin asiakirjoihin, jotka paljastavat 64188:n venäläisen sotavangin kohtalon Suomessa. Peltola kertoo kirjassaan tapahtumista ,joista historiankirjoitus vaikeni pitkään, mm. keskitysleireistä, rotuerottelusta, nälästä ja sairauksista sekä huonosta kohtelusta, ja että Venäläisiä sotavankeja kuoli 29.1%.

Peltola kirjoittaa: Kun etsitään todellisia syitä venäläistä kansallisuutta olevien sotavankien ja siiviilivankien poikkeuksellisen suureen kuolleisuuteen Suomalaisissa sotavankileireissä tai siiviliväeston keskitysleireissä itä-Karjalassa, ei voida sivuuttaa niitä lähtökohtia, joilla suomalaisia kasvatettiin nationalistiseen henkeen. Näiden lähtökohtien ja fasistisen ideologian yhteensovittaminen synnytti äärimmäisen ryssänvihan ja halveksunnan venäläisiä ihmisiä kohtaan.

Peltola jatkaa: Kun kansalliskiihko rotuoppeineen viedään niin pitkälle, kuin se natsi-Saksassa vietiin Hitlerin valtaan nousun jälkeen, ihmisiltä katoaa humaani näkemys ja tilalle nousee voimakkaamman käskyvalta alistettuna olevia kohtaan. Muuten ei ole selitettävissä se välinpitämättömyys, jolla Suomessa suhtauduttiin näihin “alemmalla kehitystasolla” oleviin sotavangeiksi joutuneisiin venäläisiin sotilaisiin ja venäläiseen siviiliväestöön vallatuilla alueilla. Suhtautumisessa heijastui natsi-Saksan opit, tosin osittain hienovaraisemmassa muodossa. "