Can you please translate for us the following quote. Might be interesting.
If you cant read what it saidâŠhow you know is interesting ?
It did save a lot of close combat sappers lives. It did destroy many Soviet tanks. Yes, it was a good weapon.
-At first, you claimed that we used all German weapons(not even Germans allies got those). I proved you wrong, will you now say that we were Nazi because we used German Anti-tank weapons??
-Soviets then were capitalists, by using U.S. made fighters and trucks.
Yes, I know what those quote speak of. I read their translation in Russian as I do not understand a single bit in Finninsh myself.
But am not sure that the russian translation of it is correct. That is why I ask Fennica to translate it himself to English for all of us to read.
NÀin kirjoitti presidentti (ei virassa) P.E. Svinhufvud LuumÀellÀ 26.6.1943.
HÀn otti myös kantaa Pietarin hÀvittÀmiseen 18.6.1943.
This is what the President P.E. Svinhuvud(not in office) wrote while in LuumÀki(bonehill) 26.6.1943.
âEntĂ€s Pietarin kaupunki ? SillĂ€ ei VenĂ€jĂ€stĂ€ irroitettuna enÀÀ ole elĂ€misen mahdollisuuksia, vaan se on hĂ€vitettĂ€vĂ€ ja sen asukkaat siirrettĂ€vĂ€ VenĂ€jĂ€lle. SiellĂ€ heillĂ€ on tilaa, kun sota on tehnyt suuren loven venĂ€lĂ€iseen kansanainekseen .TĂ€mĂ€ ei ole imperialismia vaan pahuuden pesĂ€n puhdistamista.â
What about city of st.Petersburg? It has no means to live(survive) if taken from Russia, but it must be eradicated/destroyed and its habitants moved into Russia. There they will have space to live as the war has done a huge notch in a population density. This is not imperialism but cleaning a nest of evil.
"18.12 Iltasanomat otsikoi: Sotarikos? PitkÀÀn salatun kuvan mukaan Suomalaiset pakottivat VenÀlÀisiÀ sotavankeja miinanpolkijoiksi. KuvatekstissÀ venÀlÀisvangit polkevat miinoja miinakentÀssÀ Vuosalmella 2.9.1941, ja samaa tapahtui mm. Hautavaarassa 4.9.1941. SeitsemÀn miinanpolkijan tiedot löytyivÀt SPR:n rekisteristÀ, ja kaikki nÀmÀ olivat kuolleet aikana 10.10.1941 - 3.7.1942.
18.12 nightnews paper gives headlines: Crime of war? According to a picture held in secrecy for a long time, Finns forced Russian POWs into mine steppers. In a caption russianprisoners are stepping mines in a minefield in Vuosalmi 2.9.1941, and similar event happened also in Hautavaara 4.9.1941. Files of the seven steppers were found in SPR records, and all these
had died during the timespan of 10.10.1941-3.7.1942.
Sotahistorioitsija, everstiluutnantti Ari Raunos toteaa: Suomalaiset olivat talvisodasta katkeria. Yksilötasolla kÀyttÀydyttiin aika primitiivisesti. Yleisestikin vankien suuri kuolleisuus heijastuu katkeruudesta, jota Suomalaiset tunsivat.
Warhistorian, colonel-lieutanent Ari Raunos points out: Finns were bitter from the Winter War. In the induvidual level behaviour was somewhat primitive. Commonly, large deathtoll of the POW reflects on the bitterness, which Finns felt.
TÀhÀn kaikkeen saa tottua. Sodassa on tÀmÀn pÀivÀn nÀkökulmasta tapahtunut vaikka kuinka paljon kÀsittÀmÀttömiÀ asiota.
One has to get used to this all. From this days point of view all manner of unthinkable events has taken place in War.
Tutkija Timo Salmi sanoo: Sodan olosuhteet -nÀlkÀ ja vaikeat olot- vÀÀristÀvÀt ja raaistavat. Ihminen muuttuu pedoksi kolmessa pÀivÀssÀ, ja joukkoon mahtuu myös sadisteja.
Researcher Timo Salmi says: Conditions of War-extreme hunger and difficult conditions- twist and make one more brutal. Human becomes a beast in three days, and in a group can be found also sadists.
VenÀlÀisten sotavankien kohtelusta ja oloista vastasi kotijoukkojen esikunnan sotavankitoimiston pÀÀllikkö kapteeni Eljas Erkko. Sotavankien kohtelusta on kirjoittanut kirjan Eino Peltola. Kirja on jÀrkyttÀvÀ teos, joka perustuu salaisiin asiakirjoihin, jotka paljastavat 64188:n venÀlÀisen sotavangin kohtalon Suomessa. Peltola kertoo kirjassaan tapahtumista ,joista historiankirjoitus vaikeni pitkÀÀn, mm. keskitysleireistÀ, rotuerottelusta, nÀlÀstÀ ja sairauksista sekÀ huonosta kohtelusta, ja ettÀ VenÀlÀisiÀ sotavankeja kuoli 29.1%.
The treatment and conditions of the Russian POWs was looked after by `hometroops headquarters POW-office chiefÂŽ captain Eljas Erkko. Book about the treatment of the POWs has been written by Eino Peltola. the Book is a shocking portrait, which is based on secret documents, which reveal 64188:n russian POWs fate in Finland. Peltola, in his book, describes events which history kept quiet for a long time, among concentration camps, racial separations, hunger and disease, ill treatments and that Russian POWs deathtoll was 29,1%.
Peltola kirjoittaa: Kun etsitÀÀn todellisia syitÀ venÀlÀistÀ kansallisuutta olevien sotavankien ja siiviilivankien poikkeuksellisen suureen kuolleisuuteen Suomalaisissa sotavankileireissÀ tai siivilivÀeston keskitysleireissÀ itÀ-Karjalassa, ei voida sivuuttaa niitÀ lÀhtökohtia, joilla suomalaisia kasvatettiin nationalistiseen henkeen. NÀiden lÀhtökohtien ja fasistisen ideologian yhteensovittaminen synnytti ÀÀrimmÀisen ryssÀnvihan ja halveksunnan venÀlÀisiÀ ihmisiÀ kohtaan.
Peltola writes: When looking for true reasons for the Russian based POWs and civilianprisoners exeptionally large mortality in Finnish POW camps or civilian concentration camps in Eastern-Karelia, one cannot put aside the basis, in which Finns were raised into nationalistic spirit. Those basis and adding the fasistic ideology, gave birth to unpresidented Russian-hate and despisement towards Russian human.
Peltola jatkaa: Kun kansalliskiihko rotuoppeineen viedÀÀn niin pitkĂ€lle, kuin se natsi-Saksassa vietiin Hitlerin valtaan nousun jĂ€lkeen, ihmisiltĂ€ katoaa humaani nĂ€kemys ja tilalle nousee voimakkaamman kĂ€skyvalta alistettuna olevia kohtaan. Muuten ei ole selitettĂ€vissĂ€ se vĂ€linpitĂ€mĂ€ttömyys, jolla Suomessa suhtauduttiin nĂ€ihin âalemmalla kehitystasollaâ oleviin sotavangeiksi joutuneisiin venĂ€lĂ€isiin sotilaisiin ja venĂ€lĂ€iseen siviilivĂ€estöön vallatuilla alueilla. Suhtautumisessa heijastui natsi-Saksan opit, tosin osittain hienovaraisemmassa muodossa.
Peltola continues: When racial zeal with its racial studies is taken into extremes as in Nazi-Gemany after Hitlers rise to power, people lose the human view and in itâs place rises authority of the stronger towards the subjugated. Otherwise one cannot explain the negligence, in which these âlower evolution levelâ POW soldiers and Russian civilian population were treated. Nazi-Germanyâs views were reflected in behaviour, though partially in more subtle form.
And for the record; this kind of revisionism was particulary strong in dire Red circles.
After the Soviet collapse, more open discussion has taken place, which realistically views the matters, not like this writer describes them. By no means Finns are trying to deny the events(why the hell we should? It was war), but talks about nazism and racial ideas gives away the political colour from which this writer hails from.
-Communists were loud and hateful in Finland, because they felt in power thanks to the Communistic rule of SU.
Not quite sure how to react.
I have kept my cools and kept from pointing out the painfully obvious baitings of other participants. I have kept from slapping Soviet atrocities into the fray, because in the end, What good would it accomplish.
-But one prime example of revisionism is in order, when you say these.
Soviets admired and held Partisans in great esteem. After the wars, they marched in parades riddled with brass on their chest, hailed as heroes of the people.
-Finns kept quiet how we see those partisans. (again, not the partisans from the Germany front, but from our areas of battles)
They are cowardly lot of civilian killers and child murderes. Finns kept it quiet because of the threat of the SU, but partisan activity here was nothing more but annihilation of border villages. They massacared elderly, women and children and fled. After which claiming to have destroyed military installations.
These murderers were hunted and if cornered, no mercy was shown to them.
-Now that SU is no more, and we can present those events which happened here, they are blamed to be revisionism.
Other revisionism is that Germans and Finns did not relly engage in furious fights in Lappland. Germans retreated, we followed.
Because SU wanted blood, we pretended to fight. Only later, real shooting begun.
So be a bit more specific about what you say, so that I understand and counter or agree.
I just get negative reaction when people call the oposite point of view as ârevisionismâ.
The fact that âKommariâ is a communist does not change anything in the quote by the Finnish ex-president. Come on, you are a grown man, can not you pay attention only to what is said and not to who sais it?
The same goes for the other quote by a Finnish author.
What you say about the partisans is true. Many of partisans commited crimes. Having a gun and no one arround to be a witness is tempted a few people. I can only agree that the following said that Finn can also be said about partisans: Sodan olosuhteet -nÀlkÀ ja vaikeat olot- vÀÀristÀvÀt ja raaistavat. Ihminen muuttuu pedoksi kolmessa pÀivÀssÀ, ja joukkoon mahtuu myös sadisteja.
Mabe it is just me but I have an impression that you some how 100% convinsed that only your interpretation is correct. We are all humans after all. I my self have to strugle with similar narrow mindedness.
Saying something which clearly is not reality, which is proven wrong which has not happened or was the case of event.
-Not talking is also sort of revisionism, only that mostly matter which is not talked is still known.
The fact that âKommariâ is a communist does not change anything in the quote by the Finnish ex-president. Come on, you are a grown man, can not you pay attention only to what is said and not to who sais it?
The same goes for the other quote by a Finnish author.
Svinhuvud no doubt said that, and given the situations and world then, I am not thinking any less of the old man.
Why? Because Stalin attempted to annex us in the excuse of Leningrad. Looking against that background, it is not really that hard to imagine why he said that.
What you say about the partisans is true. Many of partisans commited crimes. Having a gun and no one arround to be a witness is tempted a few people. I can only agree that the following said that Finn can also be said about partisans: Sodan olosuhteet -nÀlkÀ ja vaikeat olot- vÀÀristÀvÀt ja raaistavat. Ihminen muuttuu pedoksi kolmessa pÀivÀssÀ, ja joukkoon mahtuu myös sadisteja.
HAve you ever heard of âtuntematon sotilasâ?(unknown soldier), from VĂ€inö Linna. Iâd recommend it. It tells the story of a MG company throughout the Continuation War through the eyes of the soldiers. Shooting of POWs does take place in that book also.(reason being that all the events in that book have happened in form or another in real life.)
Veterans of Winter War were filled with hatred. They had lost all of their own and now got a chance to pay back, and I am dead certain that many did.
-But what is not real is the Russia-hatred bred into our little ones, facism incorporated into our society. That is what I meant by revisioning.
-In reality, red and white Finns alike fought against an enemy.
[I just remembered Hakkapeliittas. They were feard amongst the Holy Roman Empires ranks because they fought with grim determination and took no prisoners. That trade was learded from the continuous wars against Russians. Finns and Russians had no mercy towards eachothers way back thenâŠ]
Mabe it is just me but I have an impression that you some how 100% convinsed that only your interpretation is correct. We are all humans after all. I my self have to strugle with similar narrow mindedness.
Well, Finns are honest people. It is a virtue to us. And Soviet Union twisted words and docs until you could not tell weather it was an origami or a duck.
-Nearly all battle-losses and victories were written down then in great detail. When ever it was possible, fallen soldiers were evacuated so that they could be buried in home cemetaries. We have clear documents about fallen troopers, when and where. Their resting places are taken care of, in every county, with great care.
-Finns can actually tell which plane was lost when and where. That is why some Soviet aerial claims have caused laughter.
-Every armor we ever had or used has had induvidual number and own documents. Every single one is accounted for.
That is why we tend to trust our own accounts.
I do like to know the other perspective, but thusfar have heard that Finns were civilian maiming Nazis with no consience, no regards of human life and no actual reasons to wage war, other than greed for land.
That we were allied to Axis, that we used cutting edge German equipment, that we were handsomly supplied with Germany, and that SU mealy wanted small piece from us, unlike every single other nation they had turned their eye upon.
-While at it, think about this; All Finnish defensive fortifications which were crafted in the Isthmus, would have been transferred into Soviet hands should the goverment had agreed on SUs terms.
What defence would we have used when Red Army was then told to liberate poor Finnish workers from the oppression of the evil white goverment??
Sorry, but I was under impression that the Winter War ended with the Moscow Peace Treaty on 12 MArch 1940. Right?
So how is Finnish behaiviour in 1941 better than Soviet behaviour in Poland and Finland in 1939?
Is that because Finland sais that USSR attaked first in 1941? So technicaly it was USSR that attacked them first AGAIN. Is that the logic?
Its strange but why did you write that Soviets demanded to judge the âinnocent finnish soldiersâ who shoted the POWs and even the Russian woman .( see photo above)?
How its coordinated with you previous points that deny the any pesponsibility of finns for its crimes?
Really you think that that they MIGHT to kill everyone coz they hate ll the russians?
-But what is not real is the Russia-hatred bred into our little ones, facism incorporated into our society. That is what I meant by revisioning.
-In reality, red and white Finns alike fought against an enemy.
And whatâs about Race definition of Society according the Nazy rules?
Whan the low races feeded more badly than the high race?
What about concentration camps of âwrong nationalityâ for civils - the tupical NAzy tactic
It look like you simply hide OWN revisionism Fennica
[I just remembered Hakkapeliittas. They were feard amongst the Holy Roman Empires ranks because they fought with grim determination and took no prisoners. That trade was learded from the continuous wars against Russians. Finns and Russians had no mercy towards eachothers way back thenâŠ]
Against no.
The Soviets sended the finnish civils into deep territory of SU, but not rounded them up with in the Camps like the subhumans.
And i hear nothing about executions of Finnish POWS by Soviets.
If did you hear something- please.
While we did not seen any you proves of that.
Well, Finns are honest people.
⊠and modest:)
We clearly see it.
Only the finns know the true.
The other is just the âSoviets twisted propogandaâ, right?
Soviet WIKI that claim the Finns fought in Axis side.
Soviet-Finnish historians who wrote about Finnish imperial ambitions in finnish language.
Soviet archives datas that BTW wery confirmed by the finnish( as we have convinced in example of lost soviet plains)
The Soviets are everywhere aroung!!
What we have to do , except to lislen the single honest people:)
I do like to know the other perspective, but thusfar have heard that Finns were civilian maiming Nazis with no consience, no regards of human life and no actual reasons to wage war, other than greed for land. That we were allied to Axis, that we used cutting edge German equipment, that we were handsomly supplied with Germany, and that SU mealy wanted small piece from us, unlike every single other nation they had turned their eye upon.
Oh damnn⊠but Britain also think that you were allies of Nazy:)Check it.
And you used the Germans wearponry- you boasted of the fact that they hited many soviets tank by that wearpon.
And you probably will laughâŠbut Soviets actually was aimed to take back JUST small part of Finland. According the agreement with USA/UK.Unlike the other nation that were devided into the sphears of influence.
This was a real cynical policy of Strong of the World, like ot or not.
-While at it, think about this; All Finnish defensive fortifications which were crafted in the Isthmus, would have been transferred into Soviet hands should the goverment had agreed on SUs terms.
What defence would we have used when Red Army was then told to liberate poor Finnish workers from the oppression of the evil white goverment??
I do not remember whan the Red Army would have liberated the finnish workes?.
The official aim of the Soviets was clear - to take the Isthmus back to move the borhter further of Leningrad.
And recapture back the ortodoxy Eastern Karelia.
Why soviet woulds have to liberate the finnish worker?
Huh? I read your post twize, and lets see weather I understood you.
Finns wanted stolen lands back. -Soviet invaded and annexed. Iâd say that right there lies a difference. And Soviets also meddled with other nations internal affairs, as if they had any other than right of the violence behind them.
How I understood Svinhuvud was that since reasons for annexing us⊠or taking Nickel mines, Karelian lumber industry and placing a large military base right next to our capital⊠was to safeguard Leningrad.
If Leningrad as a city was to be no more, pressure from future Soviet demands would be no more. And Svinhuvud did talk about annihilation of the city, not the citizens.
-I donât agree to his ideas, but I do understand them.
This is the very character that you separate the partisans of Eastern Karelia (most of them were russians) from the ones in GErmans front.
The many partisants of Ukraine, Belorussia and Yogoslavia brought he great contribution in a victory over Axis.
As well as the Eastern karelians.
Considering atrocities- do not you forget that this was DIRECT resault of the occupation policy of Finns here.
They initially placed people in a camps , keep here the famine.
Just fo you to know
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War#Soviet_partisan_activity
Soviet partisans operated in Finland and in Karelia from 1941 to 1944. 24,000 ethnic Russians were interred by occupying Finnish forces. 4,000-7,000 of them died, mostly from hunger during the spring and summer of 1942 due to failed harvest of 1941. Segregation in and medical care between Karelians and Russians created resentment, making many ethnic Russians support the partisan attacks.
âŠ
In East Karelia most partisans attacked Finnish military supply and communication targets, but on the Finnish side of the border, almost two thirds of the attacks targeted civilians,killing 200 and injuring 50, including children and elderly
So finnish 200 civils are much more importaint that the 7 000 of russians children and eldery, right Fennica?
Now may be you wish to say that finns did not used the pro-Nazy race policy in the occuped Karelia?
How about this sort of Revisionism?
Mr. Chevan what Finnish pro-nazi race policy are you talking about?
Modern Russians were formed via mixing of Slavs with Finno-Ugrian, Turkic and non-european peoples. So one can call the Finnish presence in Russia during WWII a reunification of Finno-Ugric brothers.
The source of the name Moscow is considered to be an ancient Finnic language, in which it means âdarkâ and âturbidâ.
Right, exactly my point - Finland in 1941 was an agressor, as they wanted back the land even though a peace treaty was signed. Just like USSR was an agressor when it invaded Poland in 1939.
Do you also see similarity there?
And Soviets also meddled with other nations internal affairs, as if they had any other than right of the violence behind them.
Yes, they did. But lets keep this for an other thread. We can barely manage to keep peace in this one.
How I understood Svinhuvud was that since reasons for annexing us⊠or taking Nickel mines, Karelian lumber industry and placing a large military base right next to our capital⊠was to safeguard Leningrad.
If Leningrad as a city was to be no more, pressure from future Soviet demands would be no more. And Svinhuvud did talk about annihilation of the city, not the citizens.
-I donât agree to his ideas, but I do understand them.
And I do understand Svinhuvud. Kind of. From his point of view I do.
But it illustrates that the goal was not just the Karelian istmuth, the goal was Neva River that traverses Leningrad in the middle.
[QUOTE]Chevan:
Wrong - you have harmed them a lot, helping the GErmans hold the 16 soviet infantry divisions tied in the North. Fennica:
You could have made a peace with Finland any time. It was a possibility, due to the fact that we were not Allies to Germany.[/QUOTE]
Really? You think USSR could have made peace any time?
(it murderously late here, but Iâll try to answer)
No, I donât really. Soviet Union hadnât owned those lands in the first place and Soviet people had not lived there. Getting back own is not equalent to stealing.
Yes, they did. But lets keep this for an other thread. We can barely manage to keep peace in this one.
Iâll second that.
And I do understand Svinhuvud. Kind of. From his point of view I do.
But it illustrates that the goal was not just the Karelian istmuth, the goal was Neva River that traverses Leningrad in the middle.
Hmm, from what I have gathered from early childhood onwards(when I got intrested in history) I have seen Neva as the most optimistic and wildest of dreams not really taken into consideration. Mostly I lie that assumption with the knowledge of how small my kin was then, only 4,2 million. So getting land is not the fundamental need. Even these days we are really not crowded here.
At least we agree that people in Leningrad were not considered to get annihilated along with their city.
Really? You think USSR could have made peace any time?
Yes. In the most dire stage of the battle of Tali-Ihantala, Ryti manouvered to get weapons from Germany and at the same time have an option for peace. these kinds of political manouvering would have taken place should both sides really want and need peace.
Pages 2 and 3:
Sweet documents! Exellent finding!
Mind if I check what was the reason little later, or was there any reason at all? Because of the few reasons I can think of⊠one is the desperate grain shortage which Finns suffered in 1941 which Germany promised to ease should we continue war against SU, thus tieing up menpower and material, and possibly cut the Murmansk railway.
