Hello gentlemen.
I hope this is the right topic for the Tiger II also?
Note the exhaus and the that ‘something looking like an armored can’ onto the engines compartement - can somene identify that ‘something’? Thanks 
Weren’t those tanks with the double iron cross on the storage from the division ‘Großdeutschland’ in the battle of Kursk?
A series of the same tank - can someone identify the unit which used, i think it’s an oak leaf [?].
Not an oakleaf but a bull charging(it looks like one to me) from Schwere Panzer Abteilung 505 ,this was used during 1943/44.
http://panzer-modell.de/referenz/abzeichen/spzabt.htm
The TII is the one sent to Sweden (shown in transit) after the war. It was an early vehicle from Kummersdorf and as such the exhausts had been modified for tests.
I thought they bought them from the french? 
A while back there was a claim that this TII had been researched and the conclusion reached that it was on of the TII’s found in France after the German retreat. The one puzzling aspect was the exhaust layout.
I noticed a photo one of the Japanese Picture Magazines dedicated to the Tiger. It was of a Kummersdorf vehicle on test. It is the one with spare track links laid out on the turret roof just over the main gun. In a rear view of it going through the trees you can clearly see it is exactly the same exhaust system as the Swedish Tiger II. They must be the same vehicle.
Weren’t those tanks with the double iron cross on the storage from the division ‘Großdeutschland’ in the battle of Kursk?
The double balkenkreuz was used by the S.Pz.abt 503 in mid 1943. Not quite sure if it was also painted on the GrossDeutschland tanks.
Finally, after a wild day, I was able to finish this post… So here we go, honorable ladies and gentlemen:
I agree with the librarian the reasons for not providing the german tanks with the diesel engines they needed was mainly a matter of politics and coordination.
Thank you, my dear Mr. Gojulas. You see, actually the main problem with the German preparations for the war was that no fixed organization was set up to carry out the plans!
When Hitler announced the Four Year Plan back there at the NSDAP Congress in September of 1936, he said that Germany …must be independent of foreign countries for those materials which she could produce herself, either by chemical means or by mining." This would reserve foreign exchange for food and materials, which could not be so produced.
Göring was appointed as Administrator for the Four Year Plan by a decree in October of 1936, and he defined the objects of the plan as being to increase self-sufficiency while continuing rearmament at a rapid pace. The production of synthetic fuels was to be pursued, with the aim of meeting by 1939 all the fuel needs of the mobilization plan, 50 % of the rubber needs, 30 % of the textiles, and 33 % of the animal fats.
Göring declared that his tasks, and those of agencies which he set up, were to provide leadership, initiative and drive – but not the administration! :shock:
Furthermore – organizations created under the plan were typical of the Third Reich in their fluidity, total improvisation and overlapping. Schacht remained as Minister of Economics until November of 1937 and constantly continued to oppose the self-sufficiency aspects of the Four Year Plan, with the support of greedy business circles, banks, and large part of the steel industry.
Under the terms of the Four Year Plan the production of synthetic materials was ment to cope with all potential problems. But it always failed to achieve the target! Self sufficiency in oil within 18 months was Hitler’s aim in 1936. By 1937the date was postponed for 1940. In 1940 it vanished into the future! Production reached 2.3 million tons in 1939, or only a quarter of estimated mobiliyation needs! In 1943 production achieved 5.7 million tons, or about half of the supplies planned for that year. German program was technically completely sound, but it was extremely expensive, demanding heavy capital investments, and big construction agenda. However, without decisive administrative will and skilled professionals concentrated in a specialized, all-powerful agency or workgroup (like that notorious “Speer’s Kindergarten” within the Ministry of Armaments and Munition!) capable to carry out all previously established plans, everything represented a lost battle even before the stage show started.
Are those “compact” ?
Oh, you are interested only for compact designs, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker? No problem – we have for you some highly compact Diesel engines in our Rarity Cabinet! 
Take for example this light (yes - cylinder heads, crankcase, cylinder blocks and pistons are manufactured out of different aluminum alloys!) piece of mechanical perfection, which arrived in 1942, the Saurer HDV:
Saurer HDV – longitudinal cross section
This 8 cylinder (V 90), 10,6 Liters, 4-stroke Diesel was equipped with a truly magnificently efficient dual turbulence chamber direct injection (bore x stroke 110/140 mm), mechanically driven supercharger, compression ratio 17,5 : 1 and power output of 200 HP at 2200 RPM, total weight of 630 kg, and capable to achieve an astonishingly low specific fuel consumption of 165 g/HP-Hour!
Saurer HDV – transversal cross section
Pretty nice power unit for the Schwerer Zugkraftwagen Sd.Kfz.9, isn’t it, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker? 
However, you are probably more interested for the eventual tank engines. No problem at all – we have further examples of the Austrian engineering ingenuity as well. In that case, an truly incredible and sadly forgotten machine, produced in only 25 pieces from 1943 until 1951, and observable here, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker:
http://dh5eah.toxisch.net/diverses/dieseltechnik_am_bodensee2006.pdf
Yes, that is another aluminum construction – Saurer CVDL, an 16 liter, 4-stroke Diesel engine with direct injection, equipped with two independent Brown Bowery & Cie. turbo-superchargers, and capable to produce 300 HP at 2200 RPM. Specific fuel consumption in this case was 160g/HP-Hour.
Compare these numbers with those relating to legendary Maybach HL 120 TRM V12, and you will see that Diesels were at least as much developed as petrol engines, furthermore – in certain aspects they were absolutely outstanding! Just imagine, for example, those never realized operational range possibilities of the PzKpfw IV family equipped with this last Diesel engine, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker. I am assuring you that tactical advantages are almost incredible…
But, if I remembered that well, you dislike those aluminum solutions.
Well then, how about some other, more classicistic solutions for armored vehicles? You know, we have some other offers as well.
Take for example, this Tatra V 910 – an mechanical icon designed for the most severe working conditions, which earned its legendary reputation due to its celebrated reliability, brawny nature, and incredible modesty. An air-cooled, V 12 Diesel engine with a direct fuel injection, 110 mm bore and 130mm stroke, 14,8 Liters of displacement, compression ratio of 16,5:1, 210 HP at 2250 RPM - and without radiator, water pump, head gaskets, hoses, or thermostats, and completely capable to start on -40 degrees of Centigrade somewhere in Eastern Siberia.
Tatra V 910
Almost perfect standardized power unit for certain military vehicles, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker, isn’t it? Trucks, armored cars, auxiliary vehicles, even light tanks… But, yet again, sorrowfully unexploited…
And now comes the most interesting party of this story, directly connected with our main theme in this thread. Unbeliveably, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker, but actually there were completely serious plans for employment of a modified, 18-cylinder variant of this engine (additional 6-cylinder bank added in the center - so called “three bank”, or “W” engine configuration!) for the Tiger tank! :shock:
Well, that’s all for today. In the meantime, as always – all the best!
Thank you for your effort to scanning interesting info.
I have to agree that some of the models displayed in your post are in fact very usable for half trcak and any kind of armored vehicle in the Wehrmatch up to 15 tons. However i must say that the date did not seem the one I posted earlier ( 1940) If the german had diesel engines from the begining to war ( like the russians) …that would made a difference.
By the way …wasnt the V910 czech engine placed inside the SD.KFz 234 panzerspahwagen family ?
I dont know why but this picture is…painful.
Someone wanted to make sure :shock:
You’d think that after the 20th shot, the crew would have died…
By the way …wasnt the V910 czech engine placed inside the SD.KFz 234 panzerspahwagen family ?
It was planned to fit a Tatra diesel (the name escapes me), but I don´t know if actual work was done.
Just found the most comprehensive Tiger I Site, it’s the ( Tiger I Information Center ) go to http://www.alanhamby.com/tiger.html hope you find as interesthing as i did.
Good evening, honorable ladies and gentlemen. I think that I do owe certain answers to you, therefore here they are.
Thank you for your effort to scanning interesting info.
Oh, no tat all, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker – I’m glad if you liked those forgotten trinkets of the Diesel technology.
However i must say that the date did not seem the one I posted earlier ( 1940) If the german had diesel engines from the begining to war ( like the russians) …that would made a difference.
Excuse me, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker, but actually they had numerous completely appropriate Diesel engines on their disposal even before 1940! The only problem was that absolutely no systematic order of priorities for employment of those advanced designs ever existed! Do you remember that pretty powerful and compact Krupp – Junkers LD 5 N 142? It was constructed in 1937 and produced in 1938! Saurer company has developed and fabricated those incredibly advanced designs without any help from the German state, while other highly utilizable solutions were absolutely neglected by constantly uninformed governmental officials. You don’t believe this – no problem, we have some other examples in our repository as well.
Do you remember that Golden Age of airships, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker? Excellent, then just think about one incredibly innovative construction called Daimler Benz 607 which actually arrived in 1939. Here it is:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Duxford/Mercedes2.jpg
This curious, all-aluminum, supercharged, pre-chamber equipped V 12 Diesel engine had a maximum output of 1450 HP at 1500 RPM! Engine possessed 44,5 liters of displacement and dry weight of 960 kg, it was equipped with wet cylinder liners (which mirrored DB’s preoccupation with lightness !), double overhead camshafts, and four valve per cylinder, as well as dry-sump lubrication system with two pressurization and two scavenging pumps! It was very compact: only 2.52 m long, 0,83 m wide and 1.32 m tall. Not sufficiently impressive, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker? Well, let’s compare those figures with the Maybach HL 210 P 45, which was the very first engine for our dearly beloved star of this thread, shell we?
Power output of that high performance gasoline engine was only 650 HP, it was 1,22 m long, 0.965 m wide, and 0,94 m high. Do I have the sense of hearing that it is more compact? No, problem, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker – in that case we will compensate those ill-fated length with completely different transmission arrangement: we will employ rear drive from a rear mounted engine! Engine in our tiny modification is set to the rear, and the drive from the engine is backward into the variant of the Wilson gearbox, by means of helical gears. From that point drive is forward through the transmission gears to the bevel drive of the differential case. From the differential case the power goes to the short axle shafts. Shifting of gears is secured by means of combined pressure-electric device operated by a small knob just below the steering wheel. In order to shift, the pre-selector is set in the desired position or slot, and then the clutch pedal is depressed. This action allows the air pressure produced by the engine’s compressor to operate the selected gear through motion of the piston in the pressure cylinder. No need for special hydraulic oil, no oil leakage of freezing, significantly reduced fire hazard, no driveshaft under the main compartment floor and the total length of a vehicle is the same!
In any case – our dearly beloved heavy tank arrived only in 1942. I suppose that three years are representing sufficient amount of time for the necessary engine allocation adjustments, don’t you agree?
Perhaps I am talking about an hypothetic option, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker? OK – then how about some completely neglected Diesel possibilities, this time completely factual ones. You know, they were present in those times as well.
We are now in the Year of Our Lord 1938, in one of the richest areas of continental Europe - in freshly conquered Czechoslovakia. Without a single shot fired, we are in possession of superbly developed iron and steel production facilities of many kinds, including farm machinery, railroad supplies and automobiles. Between the two world wars Czechoslovakia was not only one of Europe’s most industrialized countries, but also one of the world’s biggest arms producers. Czech weaponry was seized by the Wehrmacht, and the captured Czech tanks played an important role in the early stage of World War II. As you know, two main tank designs - the Skoda LT35 and the [i]Českomoravska Kolben Danek /i TNHP - in 1940 represented approximately a quarter of the entire German tank force, and they were produced even in later years.
Our secret techno-surveillance mission is concentrated upon the development sector of the Škoda factory in Plzen, where we were able to observe a completely functional prototype of a truly amazing Diesel construction, initially intended for use in heavy lorries of the freshly developed, but still not publicly introduced Škoda - 606 D II (also known as Škoda 706 D) family:
Škoda 706 D
This 6 cylinder, swirl-chamber equipped 4-stroke Diesel engine, with 11,78 liter capacity (bore and stroke 126x160 mm), compression ratio of 18:1, specific fuel consumption of 176 g/HP-hour, was capable to deliver 145 HP at 1800 RPM, and yet – although completely, finished and able-bodied for the pretty narrow engine compartment of the Pz. Kpfw 38 (t) plus universally applicable for the whole range of tracked and wheeled vehicles – it never was employed! For some unknown reasons, gasoline variants (equipped with the Praga EPA engine), although less powerful and significantly more thirsty, actually prevailed. And why? Honestly, I don’t know, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker…
BTW: In 1951 this engine was reintroduced into the serialized production. It remained almost unchanged until 1958, when a new variant, this time equipped with a direct fuel injection and capable to produce 160 HP at 1900 RPM succeeded this robust construction. It remained in fabrication until 1971.
By the way …wasnt the V910 czech engine placed inside the SD.KFz 234 panzerspahwagen family ?
No, never. The Sd.Kfz 234 actually possessed a modification known as the Tatra V850.
Well, that’s all for today. As always – all the best!
Honestly the Zeppelin diesel did seem like a proper engine for the Tiger and other heavy panzer projekts like the VK-3001, VK-3601 and VK-4501 (P)
Probably with all that alluminium it was a bit expensive to manufacture but…wasnt all the tank expensive ? :rolleyes:
It would increase the Tiger “milleage” considerabily.
It was planned to fit a Tatra diesel (the name escapes me), but I don´t know if actual work was done.
No, never. The Sd.Kfz 234 actually possessed a modification known as the Tatra V850
Oh…near miss, thanks.
Tiger II simply for it’s de-moralising effect on the enemy and conversely it’s moral boosting effect on friendlies. Can you imagine if they put a Gas turbine in one - and they were available!
It was common to rake knocked out tanks with fire, so they couldn’t be recovered as easily if the Germans managed to recapture their equipment.
we will employ rear drive from a rear mounted engine!
Good idea, but the Germans would not… They preferred to make their tanks heavier, more complicated and more expensive by employing front drive, supposed to be advantegeous in muddy conditions.
Good idea, but the Germans would not… They preferred to make their tanks heavier, more complicated and more expensive by employing front drive, supposed to be advantegeous in muddy conditions
I think it was made in that way to avoid “buckling” the tracks.
This has little to do with the Tiger, but the site´s two diesel affectionados migth like this?:
It has just come to my attention that the Soviet V-2 diesel (of T-34, KV-1, etc.) shared its ancestry with the BD-2A aircraft diesel. The source is unclear on whether this engine was contemplated with tanks, aircraft, or both in mind, but the first two BD-2A prototypes were completed in December 1935 and in 1937 the Ukranian Institute of Internal Combustion Engines (UIDVS (later UNIADI)) was tasked with the development of tank diesels and came up with the V-2 (called BD-2 before it went into series production).
Another country with aircraft diesels in production at this time, choose to overlook the possibily of land use…
It is a BergeTiger. Going by the geared winch, I’d guess at an early BergeTiger, probably one of the first 18 converted at Alkett or BMM in about May of 1943.
The geared winch above the turret is a clue, because many of the later BergeTigers had the winch cable exiting through the mantlet, rather than above it as this picture shows.
Regards, Uyraell.