Yup, honestly I didnt believe the british gun could defeat the tiger armor until I saw the book in wich the pictures are.
Of course that is at very short range and in the side armor, If you were in a Churchill or Cromwell and happen to face a Tiger at some distance…no good.
Although believed by many to be invulnerable to most British guns the first Tiger destroyed by the British was knocked out by 6pdr AT guns.
This is an Observer’s report on the destruction of two German Tiger tanks by British anti-tank guns in North Africa, from Tactical and Technical Trends, July 29, 1943.
“The emplaced 6-pounders opened fire at an initial range of 680 yards. The first rounds hit the upper side of the tank at very acute angles and merely nicked the armor. As the tank moved nearer, it turned in such a manner that the third and fourth shots gouged out scallops of armor, the fifth shot went almost through and the next three rounds penetrated completely and stopped the tank. The first complete penetration was at a range of 800 yards, at an angle of impact of 30 degrees from normal, through homogeneous armor 82-mm (approximately 3 1/3 inches) thick. Ammunition used was the 57-mm semi-AP solid shot.”
Interesting, 82mm of homogeneous armor penetrated at 720 meters, not bad for a medium caliber at gun.
definately more than the usual penetration achieved by the 75mm used in Churchill and Cromwell.
However as you might note above, one of the side shots didnt penetrate at 100 meters !!, so I guess that was the exception more than the rule.
sometimes, in striking the target plate, The projectile will strike at an angle other than 90 degrees. This causes alot of torsion, and flexion in the projo. This can on occasion cause the projo to crack, lose parts of itself, or even break completely. The U.S.57mm projo had a history of this problem. the non penetrating strikes may well be due to this problem.
I had a folder of drawings, and proving ground reports for the U.S. 57 mm rounds produced by the George J. Meyer Co. of Cudahy, Wisconsin. Among these reports were radiographs (X-Rays) of fired projos, showing the damage they sustained in test firing into armor plates, as well as Photos of the pieces lost, or the pieces of the destroyed projo. These projos were of the high explosive shell variety, and straight A.P. shot.
I guess different quality of ammunition versus armor of varying degree of hardness ( and the quality of german armor varied indeed, specially from 1943 to the end) gave as result different penetration values, even shooting at the same model of tank, and within the same range.
Tiger, tactical number 112, of the l.Kompanie/s.SSPzAbt. was destroyed during the Normandy battles. Clear in the photograph are features that were introduced after December 1943 and January 1944; the cut out hull side
extension which allowed free movement for the shackle, the centre mounted
Bosch headlight, the small muzzlebrake, and the chevron faced track. This Tiger has the steel rimmed wheels showing that it was one of the Tigers delivered to the sSS-PzAbt.I01 in April 1944. (Bundesarchiv)
Here is another photo:
the tiger II was definately better…but i’d like to kill those damn German Engeneeers who fitted a 69.8 metric tonns tank with an engine capable of dragging a 45-55 tonn tank…
damn assholes…
in my opinion…if the Tiger II was fitted with an engine like the pershing was…there was no match for it in the whole world…
“On average it took 5 Panthers to take out a Sherman…4 would be in a ditch out of fuel or broken down…and the 5th one simply blows awat the damn Sherman…”
Oh, please, my dear Mr. Akashdnazi - don’t be so adversative toward those wartime German engineers. After all, a prominent German engine historian, Mr. Frank Köhler (Kampfpanzermotoren in Deutschland 1939 – 1990), actually explained that there was a plethora of diverse, highly advanced designs, which were not deployed because of different, mainly non-technical reasons, like political attrition, lack of coordination, personal bickerings, etc.
Take for example this unemployed beauty – the Daimler Benz 507. This 42,3 liters, liquid-cooled V 12 pre-chamber type Diesel engine was designed with a light alloy crankcase and capable to deliver 850 HP (625 kW) at 2300 RPM. Although this engine in its initial, 477 kW variant was envisioned as a powerplant for the Daimler Benz “Panther” prototype in 1942, rejection of the aforesaid armored solution was used as a rationale for a complete disregard of this highly perspective engine, even though MAN “Panther” needed only a completely executable modification of the engine compartment. Needless to say, the very same modification was applicable for the Königstiger as well.
Daimler Benz DB 507, V 12 Diesel
Additionally, the engine’s weight was significantly lesser – only 850 kgs (pleasingly comparable with those 1300 kgs of the Maybach HL 230!). And that was not all – even more intriguing, amazingly modern designs were already constructed and technically prepared for the serial production in 1945, but - due to known many reasons - that fabrication never started…
Interesting photo, are you sure the alluminium part in the DB 507 diesel engine was the crankcase and not the block?
In any case I think the RLM would had some objections with the mass production of this engine, alluminium priorities you know.
Oh, it always is a true pleasure when unrelated devotees of engineering are exchanging their corroborative opinions, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker. 
And yes, I am absolutely sure about those aluminum parts of the DB 507, but in the very same time you are absolutely right as well. I have to admit that this tiny misunderstanding indeed was fabricated by my personal indistinctness toward specific light aluminum alloys. As a matter of fact, much more exact and technically pertinent expression in this case should be the statement that the DB 507s crankcase, as well as the cylinder block and the cylinder heads were manufactured out of aluminum alloys. The only difference is that the engine crankcase was manufactured out of extraordinarily lightweight, cast Magnalium 30 aluminum alloy (Mg 30 %, Si 3,8%, Cu 0,8 %, Al 65,2 %), developed by renowned Dürener Metalwerke AG, Berlin-Borsigswalde. The rest of the engine – cylinder block and heads, pistons, water pump, radiator, cooling fans etc.) were fabricated out of much more ordinary Almasil, Bondur, Silumin-Gama and Duralumin alloys. 
Perhaps this is the right place for up to this time not so frequently accentuated technological fact that the cylinder heads of the renowned Maybach HL 230 gasoline engine were made out of cast iron, thus producing a noteworthy increase of engine weight. At least these parts were completely replaceable by cast aluminum alloys, and aforementioned solution was really envisioned for the next step of the German petrol engine development – notorious Maybach HL 234. However, that possibility remained unused as well…
And no, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker – unlike those notorious, but sorrowfully uninformed push-pens from the RLM, I do know that a properly conducted aluminum salvage campaign was completely able to create a net surplus of raw aluminum for that imperative engine production! According to data provided by Aluminium – Zentrale (Die Verwendung des Aluminiums in der chemischen und Nahrungsmittel –Industrie, Berlin 1942), and statements provided by E. R. Thews (Schmelztechnische verarbeitung von Altmetallen. – Wien, 1941) and E. Zurbrügg (Aluminium und seine Verwendung in der Getränke – Industrie. – Breurei Rundschau No. 6 – 7, 1944) Germany actually possessed approximately some 12.000 tons of first-grade aluminum in form of aluminum beer fermenting and storage tanks, milk transportation cans, consume salt drying cyclones, barrels for vinegar acid transportation, forks, spoons, plates, water bottles, vine bottle caps (sic!), casseroles, etc. – in a word, a completely sufficient quantity of already prepared aluminum for at least 10.000 engines of this type. After all – official statistics are clearly indicating that average per capita consumption of aluminum in 1938 was 2.64 kg in Germany, thus being surpassed only by consuming achievements of average Swiss citizen, who in those times consumed 2,85 kgs per capita. You know, if an industrial Giant like the USA was adequately prepared and prone to organize a highly successful aluminum salvage campaign that surely was obtainable in Germany too. :rolleyes:
Nevertheless, enough with this boring figures! German engineering had a couple of genuine “Vorsprung Durch Technik” solutions for heavy panzers as well.
The combination of the innovative and intrinsic quality of sadly forgotten Austrian school of engineering, combined with the generally untold proficiency of different human talents, was so technically advanced and in the very same time so different to other manufacturers, that it demanded just a little bit more research and time to be devoted by true admirers of competent engineering.
Who remembers today, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker, those sadly unknown achievements of Prof. Dr. Ferdinand Porsche, who always owed his success to air-cooled engines and truly original mechanical solutions? Not so long ago his renowned heirs decided to incorporate the doubtful innovation of a radiator and also several liters of water in every model of a car which celebrates his name. At the same time, it became necessary to fit a water pump, rubber hoses, extra seals and gaskets, and extra service items like anti-freeze, and also to limit the trouble-free use of the vehicles to the more temperate areas of the world. In those ancient times, however, engineering rationality still prevailed!
Our Gentlemen of the Old School was well aware that if certain items are not there they cannot fail, and if it they aren’t broke you don’t have to fix them. He was completely aware that there is no such thing as a water-cooled engine - there was and there is only engine that is using water as a heat-transfer medium! Therefore there was an completely logical offer: if you can cut out the Middle-man, why to hell not? And so he did just that.
In 1942 he constructed an engine masterpiece: an 16 cylinder, supercharged, air-cooled, pre-chamber equipped, four-stroke Diesel engine with an overall displacement of 36,5 liters and a power output of 760 HP at 2500 rpm. This 2250 kg heavy, all cast-iron fabricated machine was arranged in four rows of four cylinders each, with 135° spacing between the banks.
Simmering-Graz-Pauker Sla 16 (Porsche Typ 212)
Manufactured from the minimum amount of completely non-problematic materials, by economical, usual methods of production, operable at temperatures between -30 to +50 C, and unaffected by altitude, completely multi-fuel capable, and above all – much more adaptable for a truly versatile application. Manufactured out of independent, standardized four-cylinder blocks, based upon a single, 2,3 l cylinder unit, this engine represented a concept of a totally modular (Baukastensystem) and universally applicable powerplant for different vehicle classes – trucks (single block, straight 4 variant – 150 HP), half-tracks and armored cars (two blocks, V 8 320 HP variant), and X 16 option for tanks and self-propelled guns. Ease of repair and ease of placement in compact engine compartments were highlighted, as well as a significantly reduced fuel consumption due to high air surplus ratio provided by exhaust gases powered turbo-superchargers (BBC Mannheim).
Engine was completely prepared for the serial production by the Simmering-Graz-Pauker company in Wien – Florisdorf, Steyer-Daimler-Puch AG at Graz – Thondorf and envisioned for the March of 1945. Those plans never materialized, although Deutsche Nibelungenwerke in St. Valentin actually produced a single, experimental Jagdtiger, equipped with this engine.
Some additional, highly intriguing information about this issue is located here:
BTW: Dr. ing. h.c. Ferdinand Porsche actually used previously mentioned modular Diesel engine concept while working in early fifties for a renowned farm machinery producing company Allgeier. Details are available here:
Therefore these nowadays so popular, but incredibly boring complaints about “Cayenne-Diesel betrayal of glorious Porsche tradition” are completely uncorroborated.
Well, that’s all for today, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker. With this tiny essay, we have closed our “4-stroke Panzerdiesel” chapter. However, the next one will be much more interesting: as you know, two-strokers are much more intriguing, and – alas! - even less-known. But that’s why we are here…
In the meantime, as always – all the best! 
Ahhh Librarian …“political attrition”… A wonderful phrase, and a very fitting one when discussing State of The Art vs. The Established Production Line! (Or why an army in need of strong diesel engines as the German didn´t get them).
And thank you for digging up information for those of us who no longer have the time/stamina/patience for searching ourselves.
Do you know if it was considered fitting Jumo 205, 207 or 208 aircraft diesels in AFV´s?
(Wondered why nobody had thought of the “Baukastensystem” before I thought of it for my private revisionist WWII army, but as with most other things, it was thought of a long time ago).
I found a photo of the cutest little Tiger Tank!
And yes, I am absolutely sure about those aluminum parts of the DB 507, but in the very same time you are absolutely right as well. I have to admit that this tiny misunderstanding indeed was fabricated by my personal indistinctness toward specific light aluminum alloys. As a matter of fact, much more exact and technically pertinent expression in this case should be the statement that the DB 507s crankcase, as well as the cylinder block and the cylinder heads were manufactured out of aluminum alloys. The only difference is that the engine crankcase was manufactured out of extraordinarily lightweight, cast Magnalium 30 aluminum alloy (Mg 30 %, Si 3,8%, Cu 0,8 %, Al 65,2 %), developed by renowned Dürener Metalwerke AG, Berlin-Borsigswalde. The rest of the engine – cylinder block and heads, pistons, water pump, radiator, cooling fans etc.) were fabricated out of much more ordinary Almasil, Bondur, Silumin-Gama and Duralumin alloys.
Thank you for the long explanation explanation, the word “sorrowfully” is a bit disturbing actually
Honestly I dont think is a good idea to manufacture the crankcase of light alloy, not even a high strenght light alloy. Is better to trust in the good old steel.
Oh, not at all, my dear Mr. Snebold. I’m glad if all those previously presented informations were useful.
Of course, I completely do agree with you. There is no doubt about it: the country which has been making motoring history and astonishing contributions in the fields of engineering between 1933 and 1945 represented a peculiar mixture of a techno-idyll and sheer degree of oppressive dependence, with all familiar consequences. Take for example that truly unique destiny of the Daimler – Benz Company.
From 1935 state of the art engines were emerging in the form of the DB 600, a 1000 HP, liquid-cooled, supercharged V 12 engine, and the DB 601 with fuel injection from 1936. But when the shadows of war were already foreseen, and when 100 individual buildings of the new aero - engine factory in Genshagen (Teltow district) were scaterred over four million square meters, thus making pinpointing the exact target more difficult in air raids, officially appointed Supervisory Board of a nationalized company complained because of lengthened distances for personnel and increased costs of transportation, thus evidently pursuing its own corporate self-interest and not the interest of the state! But that was only a start of many generally unknown peculiarities…
After the outbreak of the WW 2 production soon covered the whole gamut of military craftsmanship: trucks, aircraft and rocket components, propulsion units for searchlights, torpedo boats and aircraft, tanks and stuff-cars. Between 1936 and 1945 80.000 aeroplane engines were produced – mainly in 2 factories: Genshagen and Berlin – Marienfelde. But, as usually in the real world, some of company developments did not always lead the way. The company fell behind MAN in developing a battle tank, although the Diesel-engine constructed by a prominent team of engineers under Dr. Fritz Nallinger really was the better one. However, in july of 1942 – in the very same time when all these new developments took place – Chairman of the Board of Menagement, ambitious and very prominent and respected Wilhelm Kissel suddenly died. His successor was Dr. Wilhelm Haspel, head of Sindelfingen factory since 1932, excellent engineer, and a member of the Board of Management since 1935. He was an excellent manager, merciless in realization of production goals, but more reliable in his method - somehow more artistic and with a tendency toward charmingly glossed –over unpunctuality. He was well cognizant that new production facilities were desperately needed, and he opened assembly lines for the DB 603 engines near Cracow and in Vienna, as well as the military factory in Minsk. Since 300.000 vehicles were damaged in the Eastern front alone, a logistic interface reaching the front lines was also required, not even to mention increasing raw material shortages and an enormous lack of qualified manpower. Therefore, it was evident that previously undertaken efforts of the company to continue with the production of passenger cars even after the war started so as to maintain the production lines devoted to them was an absolutely unacceptable situation.
It seemed that the new company management will be able to resolve all those problems, but, unfortunately, Herr Haspel was married to a half-Jew! “Logically”, he was a potential traitor of the Reich, therefore he was arrested by the Gestapo. Our well known Racial Supervisor and unrealized chicken farmer, Mr. Heinrich Himmler, always was eager to preserve racial purity of the Volk. Ministry of Armament and War Production under freshly appointed and highly talented Mr.Albert Speer, on the other hand, was deeply concerned for the war production of material goods, and fiercely opposed those security actions. And what was the final result of all that mess, my dear Mr. Snebold? State of affairs generally known as coordinated chaos! Daimler Benz actually never achieved otherwise completely possible production rates, numerous essential projects were abandoned or fatally postponed, and German war production machine was reduced to a pale replica of the procedures used by Allies!
You don’t believe this? No problem. Tell me, please: do you remember all those truly brilliant and logically clear plans offered in late thirties, resembling a scientifically projected path for a radically new, efficient and goal-oriented planned economy? For example, that notorious Schell-plan, created by Colonel (later Major-general!) Adolf von Schell, who - as being in rank of a Plenipotentiary for the Automotive Quiddity within the Ministry of Traffic - suggested major revisions in the military vehicle procurement program. The aim was to cut down the number of different truck models, to eliminate over-elaborate and costly designs, and to promulgate acceptance of designs which had both military and commercial applications. In the case of trucks, more than 100 different designs of earlier days were reduced to 30 basic models. Magnificent result, indeed!
Although more 30 different types were re-evaluated for the German Armed Forces, it was obvious that a specialized transport vehicle was needed. It was designed as Einheitsdiesel - a 6x6 driving scheme, 2,5 ton class, all wheels drive lorry of truly sophisticated design, intended as an eventual replacement for all other types. As its name implies, this vehicle was equipped with a marvelous six-cylinder 80 HP (later variants 90 HP!), air-cell chamber equipped Diesel engine, with noteworthy dry-sump lubrication, and constructed by renowned MAN. Evidently, this solution took into account Germany’s evident shortage in crude oil - all of which had to be imported! - which might well become acute in the event of a blockade. Unit was standardized, and produced by firms Büssing-NAG, MAN, Henschel, Krupp and Magirus
Einheits Diesel (6 cylinder, 6.22 liters, 90 HP at 2400 RPM) – transversal cross-section
Trucks were indeed of very good quality, reliable, cheap to run… and too costly for production in the numbers envisaged for the expanding Wehrmacht! :shock:
Einheits Diesel – longitudinal cross-section
And so… another, more cost-effective solution was discovered: the Opel Blitz lorry with a 4x2 driving scheme, (subsequently changed into a 4x4, more off-road utilizable variant) and with a gasoline engine. Adam Opel AG then awarded the governmental contract. Well, that’s life… But even this simple vehicle was in short-supply as well, and, consequently, additional production capacities were desperately needed. Daimler – Benz was asked to overtake its production in his large Mannheim factory in accordance with American mass-producing methods. Of course, the DBAG did just that… though not until 1944! I am sure that additional comment is needless!
Do you know if it was considered fitting Jumo 205, 207 or 208 aircraft diesels in AFV´s?
This tiny sentence of yours, my dear Mr. Snebold, caused a pair of sleepless nights, but – alas! – I was unable to find even a trace of it in numerous books or official archival records. No, my dear Sir: officially not a single person has ever mentioned that otherwise completely rational and utterly logical possibility. But…
End of Part I, honorable ladies and gentlemen: that boring text is again in front of me (The text that you have entered is too long (10193 characters). Please shorten it to 10000 characters long.)
OK - here we go… :rolleyes:
PART II
It is completely proven by some renowned German authors [(M. Peter, Der Fahrzeug-Dieselmotor, sein Bau und Betrieb, seine Pflege und Reparaturen. - Berlin., 1941 – p. 164) and (H. Kümmet: Fahrzeugdieselmotoren. – Berlin 1942, p. 354)] that Krupp, who in late thirties produced heavy lorries in his KRAWA factory, actually applied two-stroke Diesel engines in his Krupp LD 5 N 142 heavy lorries.
Krupp – Junkers HK 180, two-stroke Diesel engine
And why is that so significant? Well, do you remember that famous heavy German half-track Sd.Kfz.8, initially intended for sale to the Soviet Union? As you know, certain examples of that vehicle were later converted into self-propelled anti-tank guns, thus practically acquiring the AFV status. The most interesting part, however, is the fact that Krupp actually produced those halftracks at the very same KRAWA industrial unit! Reportedly, one experimental example was equipped with that intriguing two-stroke opposed piston Diesel engine, outfitted with direct injection, and capable to produce 185 HP at incredibly low 1500 RPM. But – fairly and squarely! – direct and absolutely unambiguous, undisputable and document-based confirmation of that story is, alas, still unavailable.
Nevertheless, one fact is absolutely proven: the world’s first engine factory, renowned Klöckner-Humboldt-Deutz, constructed and produced in late 1944 prototype of a liquid cooled, 32.3 liters V 8 two-stroke Diesel engine, earmarked for the King Tiger and Panther II! In this very moment I am still waiting for some usable scans of that completely forgotten machine, and I am assuring you that they will be presented here as soon as possible.
Is better to trust in the good old steel.
Oh, you are so classicistic personality, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker! But don’t worry – we will discuss those issues as well, perhaps in a special thread which will be dedicated to all intriguing and sadly forgotten or neglected military engines of the world. Believe me – there is a plethora of mechanical wonders still waiting for a proper revelation. And I am counting on you and your highly analytical skills!
You will excuse me, honorable gentlemen, but my dearly beloved mother in law arrived yesterday… Consequently, Stalingrad looks like a pleasant vacation from my current perspective! 
In the meantime, as always – all the best!
Thnaks again dear mr. Librarian.
Klöckner-Humboldt-Deutz also made aircraft enigine prototypes, now invisible in open sources (to eyes like mine at least ), that you are very welcome to take up in your coming thread on intriguing engines and good old steel
(Poor Germany; so much mobile warfare to wage, so few diesels for the mobilty-part… or perhaps just so much war to wage, so little time to prepare…))
I agree with the librarian the reasons for not providing the german tanks with the diesel engines they needed was mainly a matter of politics and coordination. During the war diesel fuel was reserved almost exclusively to two units. The Kreigsmarine specifically the u-boat arm, and to a lesser degree by the Luftwaffe for their diesel engined planes. Also most of the german army tanks ran on petrol so a different fuel type would only add to the logistical burden of the german army.
Yup, but the diesel would provide a large quantity of fuel for the same amout of petrol/ oil produced in german and rumanian refineries.
In favour of the germans it must be say that only few diesel engines with more of 200 hp and compact size were available in 1940.
Well, in that case I think that some old, dusty books will reveal some pretty unknown secrets to you, My dear Mr. Panzerknacker… You know… something pretty strange like Faun – Deutz F8 M317, or Vomag 6R 3080, or Henschel W 150… etc.
But I really do need some extra time for those ill-fated scans. Well – perhaps tomorrow. You see, we do have some regrettable lack of natural gas supply in this very moment, and outer temperature is -12 C … but don’t worry – you do have my word of honor!
Till tomorrow – al the best!
Well, in that case I think that some old, dusty books will reveal some pretty unknown secrets to you, My dear Mr. Panzerknacker… You know… something pretty strange like Faun – Deutz F8 M317, or Vomag 6R 3080, or Henschel W 150… etc.
Are those “compact” ?
But I really do need some extra time for those ill-fated scans. Well – perhaps tomorrow. You see, we do have some regrettable lack of natural gas supply in this very moment, and outer temperature is -12 C … but don’t worry – you do have my word of honor!
Those damned russians !! Drink something strong before bed Lib.