The Unforgiving War: Brutality on the Eastern Front

Well we happily established why we should not trust Wiki…
But could you please tell me why I should not trust these two sites:
[ul]
[li]Instytut Pamięci Narodowej
[/li][li]Fundacja Ośrodka KARTA
[/li][/ul]
Are they also penetrated by “Jews and Jewish conspiracy”?

And regarding the books you keep reffering to I already aswered that HERE. They are all DATED material - before the reliable archival information came in.

May I ask you to translate this paragraph:
http://www.indeks.karta.org.pl/represje_sowieckie_1.html
Wcześniejsze publikacje historyków (głównie emigracyjnych) z konieczności opierały się na stosunkowo skromnej podstawie źródłowej - orientacyjnych obliczeniach przedstawicielstw polskich w ZSRR w latach 1941-43 oraz relacjach i wspomnieniach represjonowanych (przetrzymywanych w obozach specjalnych i obozach pracy, aresztowanych, deportowanych). Niektórzy historycy polscy nadal powtarzają za historiografią emigracyjną szacunki, określające liczbę obywateli polskich represjonowanych w ZSRR i pod okupacją sowiecką po 1939 roku na 1,5-2 mln osób. W porównaniu z tymi liczbami dane oparte na aktualnej wiedzy okazują się znacznie niższe. Niniejszy raport, uaktualniony w stosunku do pierwszego wydania, które ukazało się w kwietniu 2000 roku pod patronatem Ministerstwa Sprawiedliwości RP, jest próbą zsumowania zweryfikowanych danych o stratach polskich na Wschodzie. Obrazuje on obecny stan wiedzy na temat represji sowieckich.

But could you please tell me why I should not trust these two sites:

I just grabbed the two sites truthfully, because I was reading them at the time.

May I ask you to translate this paragraph: This is a so-so translation as I do not speak Polish.

Earliest publications of historians were based on relatively modest base from necessity emigration ( mainly ) źródłowej in (to) in lats (summers; years) USSR 1941-43 - orientation account office polish and rates and in special camps memories kept ( represjonowanych and labor camps, arrested, deported ). Some polish historians repeat estimates behind emigration historiography still, in (to) USSR defining number citizen polish represjonowanych and under soviet occupation after 1939 year on 1,5-2 million persons. Based data turn out low in comparison with these numbers on current knowledge considerably. The present (hereby) report, relatively to first edition (issue) updated, which (who) has appeared ministry of justice in april 2000 year polish republic under the auspices, there is attempt of (test of) summing of verified data about polish losses on east. He (it) pictures present state of (condition of) knowledge about repression soviet. "

“Poland, one of the biggest countries in Europe, was first attacked by Communist Russia soon after its rebirth in 1918. When Soviet Russia invaded in 1920, Poland suffered heavy casualties before eventually defeating the Red Army. The following period of independence brought rapid development and Poland’s economy surpassed countries like Spain or Portugal. In 1939, however, Poland fell victim to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact between Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany and was split among Nazis and Communists, both of whom launched waves of destruction. The Brown and Red terror had much in common: during 1940–1941, Communist authorities conducted four deportations on their chunk of Polish territory, sending 1.660-2.636 million persons off to Siberia. Tens of thousands were arrested; the NKVD massacred more than 20.000 Polish officers and intelligentsia in Katyn and other execution sites. In 1944–1945, the Red Army took over Nazi-occupied Polish territories as well, imposing a Communist rule. Parts of Eastern Poland were annexed to the Soviet Union, while parts of Germany were attached to Poland. Some 1,2 million Poles were resettled from Soviet-annexed territories. To suppress the fight against Communist regime, about 27.000 members of the Polish resistance were arrested and deported to Siberia, where many were shot by the NKVD. Polish people refused to accept the Communist regime. In 1956, Communists used the army to put down unrest in Poznan, but were forced to make concessions after a wave of protest engulfed the whole country. The concessions failed to restore Poland’s development and its economy soon fell behind countries that it had easily surpassed before World War II. Poland’s political resistance culminated in the independent „Solidarity” union movement that was initially suppressed by martial law, but whose activities eventually crumbled Communism and, in 1989, led to creation of the first non-Communist government in Central and Eastern Europe.”

Communist Crimes 2007 | RSS | Contact
In English

http://www.communistcrimes.org/en/Database/Poland/Historical-Overview

You might trust whatever you want, even Nazis propogand sites.
This is you primary democratic right.
But we can’t trust it, do you understand?
Because this is a nonsense, that absolutly has no relation to the real history at all and partly to the real archives datas…

May I ask you to translate this paragraph: This is a so-so translation as I do not speak Polish.

We don’t speak polish too, besides i/m not sure we need to translate this next paragraph

"Poland, one of the biggest countries in Europe, was first attacked by Communist Russia soon after its rebirth in 1918. When Soviet Russia invaded in 1920, Poland suffered heavy casualties before eventually defeating the Red Army.

A bul…st.From most beginning.
The Poland attacked the Ukraine and Belorussia first in march of 1919.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War#First_Polish-Soviet_conflicts

In early March 1919, Polish units started an offensive, crossing the Neman River, taking Pinsk, and reaching the outskirts of Lida. Both the Soviet and Polish advances began around the same time in April (Polish forces started a major offensive on April 16[10]), resulting in increasing numbers of troops arriving in the area. That month the Bolsheviks captured Grodno, but soon were pushed out by a Polish counteroffensive. Unable to accomplish their objectives and facing strengthening offensives from the White forces, the Red Army withdrew from their positions and reorganized. Soon the Polish-Soviet War would begin in earnest.

Polish forces continued a steady eastern advance.[10] They took Lida on April 17[10] and Nowogródek on April 18, and recaptured Vilnius on April 19, driving the Litbel government from their proclaimed capital.[16] On August 8, Polish forces took Minsk[10] and on the 28th of that month they deployed tanks for the first time. After heavy fighting, the town of Babruysk near the Berezina River was captured.[10] By October 2, Polish forces reached the Daugava river and secured the region from Desna to Daugavpils (Dyneburg).

Etnical teror of local ukrainian population and ever jewish pogroms have been noticed in area of Polish “activity”.
The resualt of Polish agression was the capturing of both Minsk and Kiev.

http://www.communistcrimes.org/en/Database/Poland/Historical-Overview

Oh now i do realize where you get such ideas from- the nice rusophobian sites
http://www.communistcrimes.org/en/Database/Chechnya/Historical-Overview

Another war followed in 1999–2000, crushing the independence movement and bringing Chechnya back under Russia’s control. This second war claimed at least 40.000 lives. After it formally ended, Chechnya was subjected to a terror regime that ran concentration camps and violated human rights on a massive scale.

Hey Egorka , look they add the recent Chechen war into the “Soviet crimes” site also:)

“the nice rusophobian sites”

Why do you fear the truth? Or do you feel killing innocent women, children, elderly a respectable crime. Please remember the American military that were also lost to Soviet crimes. As Poland is free and the records continue to come to light I fear your “rusophobian” sites as you call them shall grow.

“Because this is a nonsense, that absolutly has no relation to the real history at all and partly to the real archives datas…”

Link to FDR Presidential files I did.

The Kremlin Fesses Up (a Bit)
A book of declassified documents reveals Stalin and his successors as trigger-happy liars who never saw a fact they couldn’t twist.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/90408/page/1

We never feared the truth…
The truth is the something , recognized buy evrebody, obvious and undisputable.
If the open the archives and find out the figures the deported poles 330 000 , why we shall rise it in several times?
can you explain it?
Of cource this was a tragedy, but WHY do it bigger, more in scale?
May be this is political aim to increase the anti-russian feelings.
And do you seriously think that any extremist, ethnically biases or race-hate site, that grows, always tells the truth?

Link to FDR Presidential files I did.

The Kremlin Fesses Up (a Bit)
A book of declassified documents reveals Stalin and his successors as trigger-happy liars who never saw a fact they couldn’t twist.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/90408/page/1

WHere is there the “declassified documents”?

“We never feared the truth…” This will bring you to the 1939 files.

http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/psf/box32/folo304.html

Chevan,
Do you mind giving me your back ground? IMO I look for resolve in the only manner we have. I am in the USA and the Russian friends I have are fantastic people. I do not place blame on the Russian’s who have been victim’s of communism themselves.

Respectfully, Stasia

Hmn good source, i 'll study it later
For the while, would you so kind please to point me, what exactly document of this site confirm you point aboit 1,6 mln deported?

Chevan,
Do you mind giving me your back ground? IMO I look for resolve in the only manner we have. I am in the USA and the Russian friends I have are fantastic people. I do not place blame on the Russian’s who have been victim’s of communism themselves.

But victims of communism was still minority of Russian population. So does it mean you place blame on the russians , only becouse they weren’t victims?
My gramma told me that they also survived the famine in 1932-33 in Kuban, nobody died , thanks to god, but in other area there were a few victims.But later she told ,the situation quickly improved and peoples forget about famine soon. The collectivisation soon brought its positive fruits.
BTW my pre-great-gramma still remembered the times of famine in Tsar Russia, the famines happened each 15-20 years , and poorest peasants died very well .It was every dry year .
You may be don’t know but the awerage time of life in Tsar Russia was - 29 years.
So shall we add this in “Communist crimes list too” ( as well as Chechen war of 1994-1999)?

“So does it mean you place blame on the russians , only becouse they weren’t victims?” No, I just point out that Russian were also victim’s.

“1932-33” As stated before this subject is in a class of it’s own.

With Russia’s goverment distorting the facts from the people it seems such a brutal dictator can get votes. For victims this add to the crimes.

Bloody dictator Joseph Stalin could soon be named Russia’s greatest man - despite his reign of terror killing 70 million of his people.

In a worrying wave of support, 263,000 votes have put the tyrant only 4,000 behind Tsar Nicholas II to be TV’s The Name of Russia.

Russia’s version of the BBC series Great Britons - won by Winston
Churchill - has seen the man who sent millions to the Gulags and
tortured rivals before, during and after the war feted by ex-communists and right-wingers.

A Stalin cult is using the net to get votes before December. One
diplomat said: “When Russians feel weak they cling to strong men.”

http://www.mirror. co.uk/news/ topstories/ 2008/07/17/ bloody-dictator-joseph-stalin- could-be- named-russia- s-greatest- man-89520- 20651523/

What facts has distorted the “Russian govenment”?Sorry, the History is not a matter of govenments , but historians.
And we have no any reasons not to trust our russian historians, like for instance Krivosheev , who spend a years working in archives…
We prety aware of that famine of 1932-33 in Ukraine,Kazahstan, Volga region, Kuban and ets.
Nobody deny the FACTS.
But i think you have to realize that to increase (or falsify) the figures of Stalins victims is a wrong way to fight against stalinist.They simply can blame you in lie and ignore rest of you arguments…
We here, never justified his deeds, and i personaly far from to think about him as about “Great leaders”.
But we shall not spoil our Russian-Polish relation worse than this is today.
Becouse this is clear for us, the site that you 've provided about “Soviet crimes” bring the anti-russian sense at all, not anti-soviet.
We can’t use it as a “source” coz it insults our feelings.

Bloody dictator Joseph Stalin could soon be named Russia’s greatest man - despite his reign of terror killing 70 million of his people.

In a worrying wave of support, 263,000 votes have put the tyrant only 4,000 behind Tsar Nicholas II to be TV’s The Name of Russia.

Russia’s version of the BBC series Great Britons - won by Winston
Churchill - has seen the man who sent millions to the Gulags and
tortured rivals before, during and after the war feted by ex-communists and right-wingers.

I did know about this intersting elections:)
But i have to say this mean nothing, becouse there is no any direct relation that this is a true awerage russian oppinion.
I personaly never would voted neiter for Stalin, nor for Tsar Nicolas 2 ( who was worst russian tsar indeed)

But we shall not spoil our Russian-Polish relation worse than this is today.
Becouse this is clear for us, the site that you 've provided about “Soviet crimes” bring the anti-russian sense at all, not anti-soviet.
We can’t use it as a “source” coz it insults our feelings.

Killing my Grandmother, aunts and uncle hurt my feeling. But I hear what you are saying.

“History is not a matter of govenments , but historians.”

I must say even you must know the truth here, your media that speak the truth are killed, your TV is what your goverment tells you you can watch. Your files still are not released with the full history for even the Russian citizens to read.

This may come as a shock to you as a descendant of the democratic traditions of the Russian Empire, but the last I heard Tsars weren’t elected. :wink: :smiley:

Unlike the democratic processes which gave you Comrade Stalin, and kept him in power to universal adulation by a grateful people. :wink: :smiley:

And US or other Western government files are?

Or are even safe from being concealed from the public even after they have been released?

February 21, 2006

U.S. Reclassifies Many Documents in Secret Review

By SCOTT SHANE

WASHINGTON, Feb. 20 — In a seven-year-old secret program at the National Archives, intelligence agencies have been removing from public access thousands of historical documents that were available for years, including some already published by the State Department and others photocopied years ago by private historians.

The restoration of classified status to more than 55,000 previously declassified pages began in 1999, when the Central Intelligence Agency and five other agencies objected to what they saw as a hasty release of sensitive information after a 1995 declassification order signed by President Bill Clinton. It accelerated after the Bush administration took office and especially after the 2001 terrorist attacks, according to archives records.

But because the reclassification program is itself shrouded in secrecy — governed by a still-classified memorandum that prohibits the National Archives even from saying which agencies are involved — it continued virtually without outside notice until December. That was when an intelligence historian, Matthew M. Aid, noticed that dozens of documents he had copied years ago had been withdrawn from the archives’ open shelves.

Mr. Aid was struck by what seemed to him the innocuous contents of the documents — mostly decades-old State Department reports from the Korean War and the early cold war. He found that eight reclassified documents had been previously published in the State Department’s history series, “Foreign Relations of the United States.”

“The stuff they pulled should never have been removed,” he said. “Some of it is mundane, and some of it is outright ridiculous.”

After Mr. Aid and other historians complained, the archives’ Information Security Oversight Office, which oversees government classification, began an audit of the reclassification program, said J. William Leonard, director of the office.

Mr. Leonard said he ordered the audit after reviewing 16 withdrawn documents and concluding that none should be secret.

“If those sample records were removed because somebody thought they were classified, I’m shocked and disappointed,” Mr. Leonard said in an interview. “It just boggles the mind.”

If Mr. Leonard finds that documents are being wrongly reclassified, his office could not unilaterally release them. But as the chief adviser to the White House on classification, he could urge a reversal or a revision of the reclassification program.

A group of historians, including representatives of the National Coalition for History and the Society of Historians of American Foreign Relations, wrote to Mr. Leonard on Friday to express concern about the reclassification program, which they believe has blocked access to some material at the presidential libraries as well as at the archives.

Among the 50 withdrawn documents that Mr. Aid found in his own files is a 1948 memorandum on a C.I.A. scheme to float balloons over countries behind the Iron Curtain and drop propaganda leaflets. It was reclassified in 2001 even though it had been published by the State Department in 1996.

Another historian, William Burr, found a dozen documents he had copied years ago whose reclassification he considers “silly,” including a 1962 telegram from George F. Kennan, then ambassador to Yugoslavia, containing an English translation of a Belgrade newspaper article on China’s nuclear weapons program.

Under existing guidelines, government documents are supposed to be declassified after 25 years unless there is particular reason to keep them secret. While some of the choices made by the security reviewers at the archives are baffling, others seem guided by an old bureaucratic reflex: to cover up embarrassments, even if they occurred a half-century ago.

One reclassified document in Mr. Aid’s files, for instance, gives the C.I.A.'s assessment on Oct. 12, 1950, that Chinese intervention in the Korean War was “not probable in 1950.” Just two weeks later, on Oct. 27, some 300,000 Chinese troops crossed into Korea.

Mr. Aid said he believed that because of the reclassification program, some of the contents of his 22 file cabinets might technically place him in violation of the Espionage Act, a circumstance that could be shared by scores of other historians. But no effort has been made to retrieve copies of reclassified documents, and it is not clear how they all could even be located.

“It doesn’t make sense to create a category of documents that are classified but that everyone already has,” said Meredith Fuchs, general counsel of the National Security Archive, a research group at George Washington University. “These documents were on open shelves for years.”

The group plans to post Mr. Aid’s reclassified documents and his account of the secret program on its Web site, www.nsarchive.org, on Tuesday.

The program’s critics do not question the notion that wrongly declassified material should be withdrawn. Mr. Aid said he had been dismayed to see “scary” documents in open files at the National Archives, including detailed instructions on the use of high explosives.

But the historians say the program is removing material that can do no conceivable harm to national security. They say it is part of a marked trend toward greater secrecy under the Bush administration, which has increased the pace of classifying documents, slowed declassification and discouraged the release of some material under the Freedom of Information Act.

Experts on government secrecy believe the C.I.A. and other spy agencies, not the White House, are the driving force behind the reclassification program.

“I think it’s driven by the individual agencies, which have bureaucratic sensitivities to protect,” said Steven Aftergood of the Federation of American Scientists, editor of the online weekly Secrecy News. “But it was clearly encouraged by the administration’s overall embrace of secrecy.”

National Archives officials said the program had revoked access to 9,500 documents, more than 8,000 of them since President Bush took office. About 30 reviewers — employees and contractors of the intelligence and defense agencies — are at work each weekday at the archives complex in College Park, Md., the officials said.

Archives officials could not provide a cost for the program but said it was certainly in the millions of dollars, including more than $1 million to build and equip a secure room where the reviewers work.

Michael J. Kurtz, assistant archivist for record services, said the National Archives sought to expand public access to documents whenever possible but had no power over the reclassifications. “The decisions agencies make are those agencies’ decisions,” Mr. Kurtz said.

Though the National Archives are not allowed to reveal which agencies are involved in the reclassification, one archivist said on condition of anonymity that the C.I.A. and the Defense Intelligence Agency were major participants.

A spokesman for the C.I.A., Paul Gimigliano, said that the agency had released 26 million pages of documents to the National Archives since 1998 and that it was “committed to the highest quality process” for deciding what should be secret.

“Though the process typically works well, there will always be the anomaly, given the tremendous amount of material and multiple players involved,” Mr. Gimigliano said.

A spokesman for the Defense Intelligence Agency said he was unable to comment on whether his agency was involved in the program.

Anna K. Nelson, a foreign policy historian at American University, said she and other researchers had been puzzled in recent years by the number of documents pulled from the archives with little explanation.

“I think this is a travesty,” said Dr. Nelson, who said she believed that some reclassified material was in her files. “I think the public is being deprived of what history is really about: facts.”

The document removals have not been reported to the Information Security Oversight Office, as the law has required for formal reclassifications since 2003.

The explanation, said Mr. Leonard, the head of the office, is a bureaucratic quirk. The intelligence agencies take the position that the reclassified documents were never properly declassified, even though they were reviewed, stamped “declassified,” freely given to researchers and even published, he said.

Thus, the agencies argue, the documents remain classified — and pulling them from public access is not really reclassification.

Mr. Leonard said he believed that while that logic might seem strained, the agencies were technically correct. But he said the complaints about the secret program, which prompted his decision to conduct an audit, showed that the government’s system for deciding what should be secret is deeply flawed.

“This is not a very efficient way of doing business,” Mr. Leonard said. “There’s got to be a better way.”
My bold red.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/21/politics/21reclassify.html

“I think this is a travesty,” said Dr. Nelson, who said she believed that some reclassified material was in her files. “I think the public is being deprived of what history is really about: facts.”

Thank you for bringing this to my attention and I aggree with you 100%. I’ll see what I can do.

Carol

“But i have to say this mean nothing,”

It means alot for the victims. I can’t see Germany getting away with making Hitler St. Hitler. This action is going to far and instead of repairing damage it’s making matters worse.

Will Stalin be made a saint?

Moscow, July 23: The Orthodox Church in Russia is under growing pressure to make former Soviet dictator Josef Stalin a saint if he wins a popularity poll to nominate the greatest Russian in history.

The Communist party in St Petersburg has petitioned the Orthodox Church to canonize Stalin if he wins the poll for the ‘Name of Russia’ being conducted by the state-run Rossiya channel.

The Soviet leader, who was responsible for the deaths of around 15 million people during his 31-year dictatorial rule, is in second place in online voting that seeks to nominate the greatest Russian historical figure. But with months still left for the end of the polling, Russian Communists are determined to put Stalin on top.
http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=457446&sid=LIF&ssid=68

If I were to examine a knocked out tank I would want a pistol in my hand. No evidence of execution here.

When talking “Brutality on the Eastern Front” we cannot forget,

“It is now 61st Anniversary of the Ukrainian “Cleansing” of the Polish populace. It began in Wolyn and then spread to the areas of Polesie and Podole. There will be a wreath laying ceremony in Wroclaw at the Monument to the Slain in June. It was a terrifying chapter of the war for the Polish inhabitants of those areas, they were killed by their neighbours with whom they used to live peacefully. Those neighbours were antagonised and implored to “cleanse” the areas by the OUN/UPA elements. These calls were even blessed by the local Ukrainian priests (popi) who resorted to blessing the knives, axes, pitchforks, etc with which these crimes were committed. In all estimates over 500.000 Poles, were killed, the killers didn’t discriminate between the very old, very young, men, women or children. The majority were killed in the most horrendous ways, sometimes they were mercifully killed with a bullet but most of the time it was the knife, axe, pitchfork or in some cases an saw was used to cut them in half while they were still alive. On a number of occasions the victims were burned alive in their houses or thrown into the burning houses after being tortured.”

Monument to the Slain

http://www.kresy.co.uk/aniversary.html

This is separate horror thread.
We have alredy told about it
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4790&highlight=Ukraine+army
You can read if you wish to lean more (terrible photos included)
If do yo wish - you can r