I know it mate i just meant the half million with Polish POWs ( about 240 000).
320 +240 = 560 000 the total figure of poles who have been removed to the Soviet territory at all till the 1941.
Yea it was very disgusting view. I saw it once i and felt the simular.
TO the happines most of those Mudjahedins today feed the worms under ground.As Allah wished for them…
Yes, probably, but I still hope they are not having fun with 77 virgins they were promised by Allah as well…
I hope they have fun with each others …or with 77 donkeys…
flamethoweruy:about 10 or 11 years before I saw a tape,about 40 minuits long from serbia,that was an amateur video,with full of torture.There was a man in that video,who cutted off his penis,and eated with himself,the enemy soldiers.The tape is not a public,there was a half serbian,and half hungarian guy give it to me,who escaped from the war,to Hungary.
That is make me also that time some sleepless night!
If you mean crimes against the British Populace, then we don’t. We’re in the very fortunate position indeed that the last invading army to succeed against England was the Normans in 1066, while against Scotland it was arguably the English army putting down the Jacobite rebellion of 1745. There appear to be at least some museums covering this.
Or 72 raisins, depending on the translation…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html
Yummie, at least they shouldn’t have problems with occlusion and spend some time on the john afterwards. That would be the effect on me…
This is just something somebody shouldn’t watch, it’s just too much for us halfway civilized people and crosses the boundaries of the psychic endurance. Yes, there was quite something going on in Bosnia in the midst of the 90’s. I talked with a lot of people (croats, serbs, bosniaks you name them) who were down there either as soldiers or civilians. Unimaginably for Europe at the end of the 20th century…
You think the rest of Europe, or anywhere else in the world, couldn’t do it now, or in the future?
It could.
The whole history of mankind is punctuated with such abominations.
I travel and see a lot and I insist: hard to imagine something like this in Central Europe nowadays. You know why, and what I say now isn’t p.c. I know (but I do not care): We aren’t muslims or any other religious fanatics!
I am sorry I did not answer sooner. Number of Polish sent to Siberia has been ignored. A number of confirmed is 1.6 million and most say this number is under the actual victims. My family were in area of what you would today call western Ukraine, military front line in 1920 were given this property.
As with “Katyn” the families were in this area were slaughter, raped, and sent to concentration camps under conditions that many, many died. Lets see they died when Soviets took over eastern Poland, they died from cold, starvation, disease in cattle cars, they died a slow painful death in Siberia. Lets not forget the ones simply shot for they were Polish. Bodies of Polish line the railroad tracks, no graves were dug they just left piles of bodies. Then when amnesty was granted, now more died (as they were not given a way out) escaping Siberia.
This link below shows a map from Polish Army and it give a number over 1 million. Others links are over 2 million.
http://www.polonica.net/Polskosc_deportowana.htm
This artical shows more deaths that everyone pretends they are “not aware”. Tell me how 60,000 can be brutally murdered and they are not aware?
Ukraine is not aware of Volhynia
Marcin Wojciechowski “Gazeta Wyborcza” Marcin Wojciechowski, “Gazeta Wyborcza” 2008-07-10, ostatnia aktualizacja 2008-07-10 13:22 2008-07-10, last updated 2008-07-10 13:22
Polacy mają słuszne poczucie, że byli ofiarą tragedii wołyńskiej. Poles have the right feeling that they had been the victim of the tragedy wołyńskiej. Ale Ukraińcy pamiętają, że to my blokowaliśmy ich słuszne aspiracje niepodległościowe But Ukrainians remember that we blokowaliśmy their legitimate aspirations for independence
Fot. Photo. Bartosz Bobkowski / AG Bartosz Bobkowski / AG Staram się śledzić ukraińską prasę regularnie. I try to keep track of the Ukrainian press regularly. Choć w tym roku mija 65. Although this year passes 65 rocznica tragedii wołyńskiej - gdy ukraińscy nacjonaliści rozpoczęli tzw. wołyńskiej anniversary of the tragedy - when Ukrainian nationalists began their so-called. antypolską akcję na Wołyniu iw Galicji wschodniej, w której zginęło przynajmniej 60 tys. antypolską action on the eastern Galicia and Volhynia, which killed at least 60 thousand. Polaków, a 20 tys. Poles, and 20 thousand. Ukraińców zabito w akcjach odwetowych - to w ukraińskiej prasie w ostatnich miesiącach nie ukazał się żaden ważny głos na ten temat. Ukrainians were killed in punitive actions - in the Ukrainian press in recent months not released any important votes on this issue. Co najwyżej pojawiają się krótkie notatki będące echem tego, jak Polacy chcą uczcić rocznicę. At most, there are brief notes are an echo of how the Poles want to celebrate the anniversary. Skąd to milczenie? How to silence? - Nie ma kto mobilizować ukraińskich elit intelektualnych ani politycznych. – There is no one who mobilize the Ukrainian political and intellectual elites. W poprzednich latach było inaczej. In previous years, this was not the case. Taka dyskusja w sprawie Wołynia trwała, a nawet przyniosła pewne owoce - mówi Bogumiła Berdychowska, publicystka, znawczyni spraw ukraińskich. Such a discussion on the Volhyn lasted, and even brought some fruit - says Bogumiła Berdychowska, journalist, znawczyni Ukrainian affairs.
Dziś w Warszawie odbędzie się konferencja IPN na temat Wołynia. Today in Warsaw conference will be held Brief on Volhyn. Prezydent Lech Kaczyński słusznie zrezygnował z objęcia nad nią patronatu, bo niektóre wystąpienia mogłyby zaszkodzić stosunkom polsko-ukraińskim. President Lech Kaczyński rightly resigned over her coverage of patronage, because some instances might be detrimental to the Polish-Ukrainian relations.
You think???
Do not you think that the site WWW.POLONICA.NET appears to be a tyny bit … psychotic?
Some random snippets from the site. Now, excuse my imperfect Polish skills:
[ul]
[li]
[/li][li]List of the Jews - jewcratia in enslaved Poland[/li][li]America under Jewish control.[/li]
[li]Anti-Polish anti-people Jewish propaganda (Antypolska i antynarodowa żydopropaganda)[/li][li]And can you please translate this: “Polska bez żydostwa i żydzizmów! "de non tolerandis judeis!” What does it mean. We are all curious in here.”[/li][/ul]Splendid!
Stasha, I’m afraid that you’ve just scored an own goal…
Polonica.net is just a bunch of sick anti-semitic and anti-everything people suffering from a huge range of complexes. If you refer to that site as a serious historic source, you only expose yourself to ridicule. I’m sorry to say that in this way but as soon you stop mentioning these people in you posts the better it is for you.
BTW, Egorka gave you the best examples of what they are made of, please translate that into english.
Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski
Confirmed by whom?
You shall realize this is a historian forum , not a place for rumors and gossips.
As with “Katyn” the families were in this area were slaughter, raped, and sent to concentration camps under conditions that many, many died. Lets see they died when Soviets took over eastern Poland, they died from cold, starvation, disease in cattle cars, they died a slow painful death in Siberia. Lets not forget the ones simply shot for they were Polish. Bodies of Polish line the railroad tracks, no graves were dug they just left piles of bodies. Then when amnesty was granted, now more died (as they were not given a way out) escaping Siberia.
Sorry this is a stream of unconfirmed assertions.
The deportation was a harsh but it wasn’t genocide.
This link below shows a map from Polish Army and it give a number over 1 million. Others links are over 2 million.
Do you mean the 1 or 2 million of what?
Polish POWs? or civils?
This artical shows more deaths that everyone pretends they are “not aware”. Tell me how 60,000 can be brutally murdered and they are not aware?
Ukraine is not aware of Volhynia
This is whole other thread , but… I tell you more.
It was not 60 but at least 200 000 victims of Ethnical terror in Volun and Galicia in 1943-44.
We had a hot thred about this with one of the Ukrainian member.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4790&highlight=Ukrainian+Army
It was resault of UPA atrocities .
And you make a mistake , tryuing to associate us with the Ukrainians Nationalists ( the most fierce people IMO , who killed even locals ukrainisn for “colloborationism” with Soviet authorities)
Subsequent posts confirm the endless enmity I see in European, primarily eastern European and Balkan, areas, and just on this forum.
They reinforce my view that, apart from the usual human savagery not far under the skin of most of us, there is a great deal of old scores to settle which would encourage a new round of savagery if a war or just civil tolerance of violent bigotry was unleashed in Europe and around its borders. Bosnia ain’t too long ago. Nor is Kampuchea. Or Rwanda. Or the last Los Angeles riots. Every nation has this badness in it.
However, on a lighter note, it appears that recent advances in Albania have brought it all the benefits of a developed nation, so I don’t know why there should be any more problems. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK7m8OBIxBU&feature=related
Yes unfortinatelly the old eastern european prejudices stiil exists today. Moreover the contemporary so called National-democtaric govenments sometimes very unresponsible in the inner behaviour.The race and ethnical matter could be heard here.
I told how the contemporary Orangoids in Ukraine, try the blame the other nations in their Holodomore. this is probably most insolent neo-fascism and ethnical extremism, that of cource will have the negative consequences ( they probably planed and wished it) for our countries.
They reinforce my view that, apart from the usual human savagery not far under the skin of most of us, there is a great deal of old scores to settle which would encourage a new round of savagery if a war or just civil tolerance of violent bigotry was unleashed in Europe and around its borders. Bosnia ain’t too long ago. Nor is Kampuchea. Or Rwanda. Or the last Los Angeles riots. Every nation has this badness in it.
However, on a lighter note, it appears that recent advances in Albania have brought it all the benefits of a developed nation, so I don’t know why there should be any more problems. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK7m8OBIxBU&feature=related
He hE he.
Mate i/m sure the new Albania would has shown itself in Europe.
“Confirmed by whom?
You shall realize this is a historian forum , not a place for rumors and gossips”
Professor Edward J. Rozek: “Allied Wartime Diplomacy: A Pattern in Poland”: “From September 17, 1939 to June 1941, 1.692.000 Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and Byelorussians were forcibly taken from their homes and deported to Russia. The number included 230.000 soldiers and officers of the Polish Army; 990.000 civilians, who were deported because of their ‘nationalistic bourgeois background’; 250.000 political ‘class enemies’; 210.000 Poles conscripted into the Red Army and then sent deep into the Soviet Union; and 12.000 other Poles gathered forcibly from the Baltic area. Among the deportees were 160.000 children and adolescents. . These figures were compiled by the Polish Embassy in the USSR during the period from August 1941 to April 1943 and are based on testimony of over 18.000 eyewitnesses - Poles who passed through prisons, concentration camps and forced labour camps in the Soviet Union. This collection is now in the Hoover Library on War, Revolution, and Peace in Stanford, California”.
Julian Siedlecki: “Losy Polakow w ZSRR w latach 1939-1986”: “Polish authorities estimated that around 1.500.000 Polish citizens were deported to the Soviet Union”.
6. Michael Hope: “Polish Deportees in the Soviet Union”, ISBN 0 948202 76 9: Including the relatively small percentage of Ukrainians, Jews and Byelorussians, the total number of Polish citizens deported to the Soviet Government during its ‘eternal friendship’ with Nazi Germany
&
Between 1939 and 1941 amounted to approximately 1,680,000 people, not including prisoners of war. There is a broad measure of agreement with this figure. Zubrzycki records in 1956 an estimated figure of one and a half million. This was revised upwards to a new figure of 1,700.000 in 1944 by the then Polish Government in exile. The Institute of Jewish Affairs in the US puts it at two million, of whom 500,000 were Jews. This latter figure is disputed, and the latest estimate (1972), compiled by the Sikorski Museum and the Polish Institute is 1,680,000, supported by calculations made by the Catholic Church. It is important to stress that these figures do not include military deportees."
I’ve also found an article from a Polish newspaper in France, published in 1954:
Poles In the Depths of the USSR
The nightmarish fruits of the deportations
The overall number of Polish citizens deported by the NKVD from our eastern territories to the Soviet Union in the period 17th Sept.1939-July 1941 totaled 1.692.000 people. This figure comes from the following:
a) prisoners of war from the 1939 campaign 230.000
b) those interned after the 1939 campaign 12.000
c) those sent to labour camps 990.000
d) those condemned to prison 250.000
e) those incorporated into the Red Army 210.000
Total 1.692.000
In late autumn 1939 a decree was announced in the camps where Polish prisoners of war were interned (men) that all those who came from the territories occupied by the Red Army could return to their homes. Soon around 46.000 left the camps.
On July 30, 1941 Polish Government in London signed a treaty with the Soviet Union, as a result of which Russia was to release all the Polish citizens deported since 17th Sept.39.
Throughout February 1942 preparations were carried out to fulfill this agreement. The representatives of the Polish Government were bringing prisoners of war from whom army divisions were being formed. Unfortunately the Soviet authorities organized only two waves of repatraiation: one in March and the second in August 1942, which were directed to the Middle East.
This way the following numbers left the Soviet Union:
a) prisoners of war from the eastern territories of Poland 46.000
b)army 40.000
c)civilian population 74.500
Total 160.000
The second time the Soviet army entered Poland, under the slogan of ‘liberating’ the countries of Eastern and Central Europe it brought a new wave of terror and deportations.
These deportations have lasted from spring 1945 to this day. According to approximate calculations the Soviets sent away into the depths of Russia from that time till the end of 1951 around 1.700.000 people.
Therefore, the numbers of Polish citizens deported to Russia are as follows:
a) from 17 Sept. 1939 to July 1941 1.692.000
b)from spring 1945 to the end of 1951 1.700.000
_________________________________________________________________________ Total 3.392.000
Those who stayed for ever in Russia, ie those who perished, are the following:
a) those who died from natural causes up to 1st October 1942 413.000
b)officers murdered in Katyn 8.300
c) those who died from cold during transports and from exhaustion
in labour camps and prisons 308.000
d) those murdered by their guards during the evacuation of prisons
and camps after the outbreak of the Russo-German war 4.500
e) those who disappeared without trace 113.500
Total 850.000
f) according to the calculations of the League for Human and Civil Rights
from spring 1945 till the end of 1951 those who lost their lives 750.000
___________________________________
Total 1.600.000
Thus if we continue our calculations:
a) those deported from 1939 till the end of 1951 3.392.000
b) those who lost their lives 1.600.000
c)those repatriated 160.500
____________________________________
Total 1.760.000
"Polska bez żydostwa i żydzizmów! “de non tolerandis judeis!”
Poland without Jews and Jewish conspiracy.
The rest is in Latin perhaps?
I m agree about polish POWs - 230 00 enough close to the Russian archives datas ( 240 000)
But…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_minority_in_Soviet_Union#1939-1947
On March 30, 2004, the head of the Archival Service of Russian Foreign Intelligence Service, general Vasili Khristoforov gave final exact numbers of deported Poles. According to him, in 1940 exactly 297,280 Poles were deported, in June 1941 another 40,000. This numbers don’t include P.O.W.s, prisoners, small groups, people who voluntarily moved into the SU, men drafted into stroybats.
In August 1941, following the German attack on the USSR and the dramatic change in Soviet/Polish relations, former Polish citizens held in special settlements and prisoner of war camps were granted ‘amnesty’ and allowed to enrol in Polish army units. The location of reception centres was kept secret and no travel facilities provided.[2] Nevertheless, 119,855 Poles were evacuated to Persia(Iran) with General Anders’ army, which subsequently fought alongside the Allies in Iran and Italy; 36,150 were transferred to the Polish Army which fought with the Red Army on the Eastern Front and 11,516 are reported to have died in 1941-1943
SO as you can see from 230 000 of polish pows at least 120 000 joined to Army of Anders in 1942, 36 000 has joined to Red Army ( 1 and 2 Voisko Polskoe) that fought alongside with Red Army.
So from 230 000 of pows 160 000 have returned to the Polish Army, not bad i think…
What to 990 000 of civils “who was send to Labour camps”
this is of cource nonsense…
Firstly the Laour camps mants no GULAH that was aprisoners labour camps.
As far i know the Polish Osadniki( settlers) have been settled to the villiages, not in camps.There were NO barbed wires and Guard.
As wrote Krivosheev , the leading russian archive historian , the exact number of poles deported in 1940 -297 280 , add to this 40 000 in 1941 and you would get the final figures of deported 330-340 000 of poles, but not 990 000 of cource…
Aslo you sould know the “incorporated into the Red Army” did no mean the deportation or prisoners at all.
The Red Army was a sort of Soviet Elite ( in comparition with the civils : workers and peasants) many of young were proud of their Service in the Red Army.
So harly you can add the 210 000 of young poles who has been recruited into the Army as a “forced” action.
“Firstly the Laour camps mants no GULAH that was aprisoners labour camps.
As far i know the Polish Osadniki( settlers) have been settled to the villiages, not in camps.There were NO barbed wires and Guard.”
No we were not “settled to villages” and “we” stands for women, children, babies. To eat you had to work. Elderly and young died first because of age’s. Please read Kresy-Siberia.org. Guards had gun’s and used them often.
Wiki is being fixed. One problem with this is anyone can edit. It really is not trusted by many. I hope this helps.