The warsaw Rising Of 1944

And where did me attack nationality of Kovalski?
Nick you are getting too biased at me;)Don’t you?

Hitler was appointed chancellor in complex deal. The Nazis never even had the majority.

Something promt me you are not correct.,
Nazy got a absolute majority in political life after they have finaly fihished the Communist party of GErmany.
No other political power can’t compete with Nazis since the 1931.
The fact that nobody n GErmany can’t creat an vital opposition just proves this fact- the Nazis was ONLy the political power in Germany at that time.
The President MERELY had no OTHER choice( although he didn’t wish) as to appoint the Hitler as a chancellor.

No excuse.

Nick, could you clarify something for me?
What “non-democratic” mechanism allowed Hitler to get the majority in Reichstag on 5th of March 1933 and become a chancellor on 30th of January 1933?

What “mythology” are you talking about?

I certainly would not call the Polish “Home Army” a “Partisan” organisation.

They were national troops in the service of the nation.

German commanders at Warsaw recognised this distinction at the time, possibly, it is said, with one eye on possible postwar court cases…

And for sheer guts, nothing beats the Warsaw uprising of April-June 1943. The various “Combat Organisations” (ZZB, ZZW to name the largest) had little or no outside help, few resources, and only TREBLINKA to look forward to if captured.

Not enough is said of Warsaw in 1943…Fine example of Jews that didn’t just “toe the line”, or be lead away to cattle-cars with barely a whisper of protest, as some like to portray the situation in Poland.

Ordinary Polish people didn’t want to know at the time…their turn would come in 1944, but in 1943, they just sat back and watched while Warsaw Ghetto men women and children fought on against a situation that got more and more desperate.

AND, just for the pundits above, the National Socialist Government was APPOINTED by Hindenburg. Advisors to Hindenburg felt that Adolphus Hitler was “just a politician”, here one day and gone with the electoral will of the people. The entire reason for this situation was the very fact that a goverment with a majority of seats in the Reichstag was just not possible, so the President stepped in to end the crisis, and to prevent left inspired revolution from transforming Germany from a defeated nation to a nation in the throes of civil war…

So, you could say quite rightly that the NSDAP were, in fact…ELECTED…

THIS IS NO MYTH…

Do you wish to say that Polish resistence have to support the JEwish uprisinng of 1943, taking a mortal risk to be killed just like the poor jewish getto’s civils?
But what was chance to win the uprising in 1943?Have you thought about it?
If together with 50 000 of jews the SS would have killed the , say 200 000, of poles?

The non-democratic mechanism would be that he was appointed by Hindenburg after the Germans failed to form a unity government. I think the prevailing thought was that he would be somewhat less radical in power and would also be marginalized by other factions within the gov’t. But yes, the Nazis were the single biggest party in the Reichstag…

The “myth” I was referring too was that Hitler was directly elected into the position. He wasn’t, nor did his policies in anyway represent the majority will of the Germans. He still needed the burning Reichstag to do that…

Warsaw in 1943 waas not about winning and losing…the result of the contest was not in any doubt.

The issue in 1943 was resistence, rather than being lead away to a fate six feet under. Many European Jews in Poland got short shrift from aryan Poles. A lot of exploitation of these same Jewish people was, in fact, carried out by aryan Poles.

When Art Spiegelman released his cartoon biography of his father (Maus I & II), Art drew the Polish as pigs for this reason alone. Germans were drawn as cats, the natural enemy of mice (Jews), with American soldiers wonderfully portrayed as Dogs in a nice reference to their wartime nickname for themselves of “dogfaces”. Vladek Speigelman was damning in his criticism of the conduct of Polish nationals towards Jews, commenting that many Poles would trick these Jews out of their last zloty. This was confirmed by a ghetto fighter (David Landau) in his book “Caged”, speaking of the same exploitation by Polish nationals.

Poland has a very patchy career record of conduct…not surprising, I suppose. The country was divided between the Reich and Soviet Union, after all, splitting the people into many factions. The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was their chance to make amends for this exploitation, and they sat back and watched it come to pass.

Sometimes, it matters not whether you win or lose…it’s how you play the game.

Kate, please remind me which nation’s citizens are the biggest group recognized and honoured by the “Yad Vashem”???
French?
Dutch?
Russian?
or maybe Ukrainian?

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski :wink:

Any uprising shall be planned to be succesfull- in other way this is just the ADD a hell of the suffering to the civils.
The Getto uprising of 1943 was not planned, it was spontan, but anyway it have no SHACNES to be succesfull.
Although it was ( many of jews has escaped from Getto and have saved thier lifes.
But you can’t demand from Local population to sacrifice of live of their families to support the ALIEN uprising.That was started without the will of polish resistence.

The issue in 1943 was resistence, rather than being lead away to a fate six feet under. Many European Jews in Poland got short shrift from aryan Poles. A lot of exploitation of these same Jewish people was, in fact, carried out by aryan Poles.

True
But not just “aryan poles” have ben colloborated with Nacis - but also Baltic , Ukrainian even russian.
In any occuped eastern territory the local police have been participated in Germans terror.
The collobaration is the separate problem - it existed everywhere . You can’t blame the local civils in Poland for that some of their "aryans’ shoted the jews.

When Art Spiegelman released his cartoon biography of his father (Maus I & II), Art drew the Polish as pigs for this reason alone. Germans were drawn as cats, the natural enemy of mice (Jews), .

That’t really funny , keeping in mind that Nacis propogand drew the Jews as a …Rats:)
I mean the mice is very close to that what Nacis meant.

Poland has a very patchy career record of conduct…not surprising, I suppose. The country was divided between the Reich and Soviet Union, after all, splitting the people into many factions. The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was their chance to make amends for this exploitation, and they sat back and watched it come to pass.

I have no any idea what do you mean as “make amends” for Jews in Getto by Poles.
I do understand the Propogandic points of Ukrainain Nationalsits who blamed the Jews in Holodomore and associated the Soviet power as a Jewish power .
You probably heard in Ukraine Nacis had organize dthe "revenge " compain agains Jews.- with wide participation of Ukrainain police and voluntares . They publically executed the handreds of jews per day.
Their “amends” have been described by Nazy propogand as a “retrebution for bolshevics-jewish crimes”
But what “jewish crimes” was in Poland?

Sometimes, it matters not whether you win or lose…it’s how you play the game.

Agree.
But considering the Nasiz habit to execute the members of family as a “bandits and partisans”- it can be very danger for Polish resistence.
The Germans simply can eleminated all of them in 1943 when the situation in front was still disputable.

Oh come on mate.
The answer is simple - the Jews
dutch , russian and Ukrainian.

Actually it honors the non-jews, the “Righteous Among the Nations”. I’d guess the biggest group would be the poles.

One link from “wiki” about Poles and Ghetto Uprising:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

Check the “Polish support” section:
"[i]Polish support

Support from outside the Ghetto was limited, but Polish Resistance units from Armia Krajowa (AK) (the Home Army) and Polish Communist Gwardia Ludowa (GL) (the People’s Guard) attacked German sentry units near the ghetto walls and attempted to smuggle weapons, ammunition, and other materials and instructions into the ghetto. Polish resistance also provided the insurgents with badly needed weapons and ammunitions from its meager stocks. AK also disseminated information and appeals to help the Jews in the ghetto, both in Poland and by way of radio transmissions to the Allies. Several ŻOB commanders and fighters escaped through the sewers with assistance from the Poles.

One Polish unit from AK, the National Security Corps (Państwowy Korpus Bezpieczeństwa), under the command of Henryk Iwański “Bystry”, fought inside the Ghetto along with ŻZW. Subsequently, both groups retreated together (including 34 Jewish fighters) to the so-called “Aryan side”. Although Iwański’s action is the most well-known rescue mission, it was only one of many actions undertaken by the Polish resistance to help the Jews. In one attack, three units of AK under command kpt. Józef Pszenny “Chwacki” tried to breach the Ghetto walls with explosives, but the Germans defeated this action. AK and GL engaged the Germans between April 19 and April 23 at six different locations outside the ghetto walls, shooting at German sentries and positions and in one case attempting to blow-up a gate.

Participation of the Polish underground in the uprising was confirmed by a report of the German commander Jürgen Stroop. He wrote that his forces were “…permanently under gun fire behind the ghetto. It means from the Aryan side … When we invaded the Ghetto for the first time, the Jews and the Polish bandits succeeded in repelling the participating units, including tanks and armored cars, by a well-prepared concentration of fire.” He described Iwański’s action: “The main Jewish battle group, mixed with Polish bandits, had already retired during the first and second day to the so-called Muranowski Square. There, it was reinforced by a considerable number of Polish bandits.[/i]”

Of course, there were people who didn’t care what would happen with the Jews inside the Ghetto. I don’t deny that fact. There were also people that were getting the rewards from the Germans for deconspiring the Jews, so-called “Szmalcownicy”. I assume that this kind of people are everywhere, not only among Poles, they are even among Jews (Kapos in death camps?).
I would really appreciate some more reading you do Kate, before you write such posts:

“I certainly would not call the Polish “Home Army” a “Partisan” organisation.
They were national troops in the service of the nation.
German commanders at Warsaw recognised this distinction at the time, possibly, it is said, with one eye on possible postwar court cases…
And for sheer guts, nothing beats the Warsaw uprising of April-June 1943. The various “Combat Organisations” (ZZB, ZZW to name the largest) had little or no outside help, few resources, and only TREBLINKA to look forward to if captured.
Not enough is said of Warsaw in 1943…Fine example of Jews that didn’t just “toe the line”, or be lead away to cattle-cars with barely a whisper of protest, as some like to portray the situation in Poland.
Ordinary Polish people didn’t want to know at the time…their turn would come in 1944, but in 1943, they just sat back and watched while Warsaw Ghetto men women and children fought on against a situation that got more and more desperate.”

And remember that Polish were dying while helping the insurgents in the Ghetto in 1943.

I’ve got an illustrated copy of Stroops report, thanks very much…

I’ve even taken excerpts from Mr.Landau’s book and compared them side by side on a daily basis with the Brigadefuhrer’s report itself…go to World War Two Talk to see the results. It reveals that Stroop was lyinh through his teeth about his own losses, and for the first ten days of the Uprising, felt the issue was more than a little in doubt. Landau himself describes the lack of help generally from Poles on the “arayan” side of Warsaw, so you can take it up with his daughters website…I would tend to believe Mr.Landau’s descriptions of the fighting than anything the rest of them had to say put together…

Maybe YOU should read wider than Polish sources…

The truth of the misconduct of certain sections of WW2 Polish society is there for all to see…

Many recruits from the DIRLEWANGER unit that served in '44 Warsaw were RENEGADE POLES…

Cop that!

Ouch!
and now you have given a final proof that you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what you are talking about.
I’m not even going to provide you any sources about Dirlewanger’s brigade, because there no sense. You will not understand them.
Please, for your own good, stop making a fool from yourself!

B5N2Kate,
What is your source for this statement.“Many recruits from the DIRLEWANGER unit that served in '44 Warsaw were RENEGADE POLES”.

According to “The Cruel Hunters” In July-Nov 44 the unit consisted 5% Regulars, 5% poachers, 10% FOREIGN TROOPS, 40% SS and Army Penal troops and 40% Concentration camp inmates. Maclean makes no mention of any Poles ever being in the unit, let alone many ? As far as I can see the vast majority of Foreign troops were always from the occupied Soviet zone.

The 36th Waffengrenadier div took recruits fom many sources…the ones you describe were present on the formation of the unit itself…

Sidetrcking won’t change the essentials…Lots of people not only exploited Warsaw Jews, but did less than they could have to help them. They then accuse these same people of “not fighting back” and being lead off to camps with little or no resistence/protest.

No, Those are the figures for the exact time period you are refering to, when they were formed it was different again.

On formation it was 5% Regular. 94% Poachers and 1% SS and Army Penal.

Also it was different for the 36th Waffen SS Division Dirlewanger which it was not at Warsaw during the rising. It was SS-Regiment Dirlewanger. However the Divisional organisation has no signifiacant number of Poles in either.

By the way I’m not sidetracking your statement is contradictory to my source. I’ve asked for you for yours and you have sidetracked. I’m still asking where the statement “Many recruits from the DIRLEWANGER unit that served in '44 Warsaw were RENEGADE POLES”. comes form.

I doubt that mr Kate can show any reliable sourse for his sentences.
This is so tupical for man who use to read mostly rusophobian sources, right sir?
So do you hate poles too?
Nice surprise:)
Polish resistence hardly can do something serious to help the Getto Uprising 1943, that intitialy was doomed to failure.

Don’t take it seriously.
the Dirlevanger “SS-brigade” was indeed the bunch of all-sort criminal over entire Western Europe ( mostly “voluntaries” from Germans prisons). It can be hardly named as SS at all - the discipline here was disgusting .
I vaguely guess that mr Kate probably mean the SS-Brigade Bonislav Kaminstki.
It also took active participation in “pacification” in Warsaw.The Brigade of Kaminsky was formed from Ukrainian voluntaries , who pretty much hated a poles.They commited so disgusting things in Warsaw, that even Germans were shocked.Guderian even has to demand to stop the senseless violence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_RONA_(1st_Russian)#Warsaw
So indeed we can say pretty right- The Brigade Kaminski was a RENEGADE Ukrainians.

Please, for your own good, stop making a fool from yourself!

I like when he is playing a fool:)
In other thread he was going to prove that All the Russians officers were just a crininals and “butchers”.