Trooping the Colour (Queen´s Birthday Parade)

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#21

Well, I’m not going to give in straight away, like i said, my Drum Major (QLR) said it was the Queens head.

Your site is largely American by the look of it.

I found the following on a site dedicated to the Corps’ of Drums for the DERR (now RGBW). www.history.farmersboys.com/drummers_call.htm

On the short parade stick and ceremonial mace used by Drum Majors today leather strips, cord or silver chain is entwined about the staff and is thought to be a reminder of his earlier duties as keeper of the cat-o-nine tails. The Mace itself is simply his symbol of office and originated from that which town Beadles (The forerunners of the Police) carried to deal with unruly mobs and, at the head of town processions, to clear the route.

I think this is more in line with monarchs head. Also the Mayors are usually given maces also, although there may be no link.

But will look further in to it.

#22

Kissing the hilt? you sure he didn’t just salute with the sword Jan?

Saluting with a sword is bring the sword up in front of the face, then sweep it down and to the right hand side, done twice if I remember rightly (been long time since I’ve been on a parade where anyone’s been trusted to have a sword). It does look like he could be kissing the hilt I suppose.[/quote]

It was probably the camera angle. To me it looked as if the RSM brought the point where the blade meets the hilt to his lips.

Jan

#23

According to what I´ve read in the 1935 drill manual, besides trailing the rifle, there was still another position used by the rifle regiments (mind, I´m seaking about drill with a Lee Enfield, not a SLR or SA-80):
Shoulder arms!
The rifle was carried by the middlefinger of the stretched out right arm stuck through the trigger guard and the thumb and index finger around the magazine, with the rifle leaning verticaly against the right shoulder.
The rifle was NEVER carried at the slope though.

Jan

#24

Easy enough mistake to make Jan, they do bring the sword up very close to the face - I’m sure there must be a drill pig on here who’ll know the exact distance it’s supposed to be.

#25

dont look at me RE avoid silly stuff, like that, like the plague :lol:

#26

No you’re right Jan, the Slope has never been used as it would have given the position of the troops away as they moved.

The slope was brought in for use with pikemen, so they could march without killing the man behind!!! It was retained for muskets when fitted with bayonets and then sort of became the accepted marching position for muskets, as they are long with out the bayonet anyway. The Baker rifles were much shorter, and as a rule the bayonets were not fitted even for combat.

This was because the bayonet provides a hefty obstacle to the firer whilst reloading. If a rifleman was using bayonet then he was to close!!!

Remembering that a mallet had to be used to hammer the rifles accurate ball in to the barrel. The less accurate ball was slightly smaller and had no leather wad, this is the one that Sharpe can spit in to the barrel and bang the butt on the floor to load!!!

The Light/Gurkha drill uses very few commands that would not be used in combat.

The shoulder is used with SA 80, but only rarely on the march, normally only when stood still, when it leads to the “cradle” position of easy. Or when moving only a short distance.

This may, I don’t know for sure, be because the SA 80 is held in this position at the butt, thus it is a bit unstable for marching.

Edit to add, shoulder is used when bayonets are fixed though. But I was with Gurkhas and they hardly ever fix bayonets, not to sure about LI/RGJ.

#27

On reflection, I think that it’s likely that the Mace came from the solid version rather than the swingy one with the chain -

http://www.ironliege.com/Graphics/NONLatexWeapons/mace%20group1.gif

Although I can still see how the other one could go from being a weapon to the mace of today -

http://wuarchive.wustl.edu/aminet/pix/trace/Mace.jpg

It’s all about the weapon being decorated and embellished for ceremonial purposes until it’s hardly recognisable as the original object.

And as I said, the site is American but Johnny Moon (at one time, the youngest ever Guards D/Maj) and Joe MacDonald who was with the QOH for god knows how long actually wrote the guide.

#28

From www.drummajor.co.uk this site is by an RAF Drum Major who seems to be keen on the subject.

Staffs and batons have long been recognised as marks of office. The earliest Drum Majors’ staffs bear a striking resemblance to those of beadles and footmen, having a very small head and thin shaft. Amongst the earliest in existence is that of the Honourable Artillery Company, presented by Sir Matthew Andrews in 1671. These staffs had the obvious practical application of clearing the way in front of a formed body of men.

The early staffs were plain, bearing a single title or device, but like so many articles used by the British Army, extra devices were added, and as battle honours were awarded from Gibraltar (1704-05) onwards, these too were engraved or placed on scrolls in the head or the shaft. In the late nineteenth century it became customary for senior officers to provide staffs at their own expense. These were naturally more ostentatious than those issued by the Army or used by the regiment quartered next door.

The Foot Guards continued, as in so many aspects of their dress and appointments, to use the issue item, a practice which they still maintain.

The staff is particularly useful for signalling commands to a Band or Corps of drums when their playing precludes verbal orders. As early as 1811 it was required that ‘…they should be attantive not to deviate in the most trifling degree from the time which will allow, within the minute, the exact number of steps prescribed by H M Regulations.’ [Regulations For The Army 1811, cited by H G Farmer The Rise of Military Music, London, 1912, p74]

Whilst on the march the Drum Major assumed a steady pace by continued movements of the staff which he was required to turn ‘…with an easy air once round, so as to keep time, and plant it every fourth pace.’[Loc cit.] Here lies the origin of the distinctive ‘stage walk’ used by the Drum Major in slow and quick time on ceremonial occasions.

Drum Majors have always been gifted showmen, but have at the same timeset an example in turnout and bearing. Tricks performed with thestaff have become part of the folklore of the Army. Stories of these feats are legion; for example, the Drum Major Cox of the Essex Regiment was famed in the 1930s for throwing his staff over the barrack gates at Warley and retrieving it on the other side without even breaking step. The addition of so many battle honours has meant that the modern staff is much heavier and harder to throw and spin than its earlier counterparts, but whilst officially frowned upon, the practice o throwing the staff was condoned, if not encouraged, by a battalion’s officers away from the barrack square. Again the Foot Guards are an exception, in that it is considered disrespectful to the sovereign and undignified for a man appointed as state drummer to the monarch to toss or spin his badge of office. The Drum Majors of line regiments have shown fewer scruples, however, in performing the tricks within sight of Buckingham Palace.

My colouring, in red another connection with the Beadles, in orange a possible reason why the Guards would frown on such practice, even rotating the mace.

My original info is now over 12 years old, so may be garbled with time, but I can not find any link between the Mace/staff of the Drummy to the Mace used by knights. The Drummy was never mounted, and 100 odd years separate his inception with the knights use of such a weapon.

#29

Didn’t see your post their Stab piper!!!

#30

The same happened to the halberd. Originally it was used as a serious anti cavalry weapon for infantrists. You could use the spear point like a pike to form a wall and you could use the axe head and the spike to pull riders off their horses or to pierce armour.
After the introduction of the flint lock musket with a bayonet, tge musketiers didn´t need pikemen anymore for their protection and the halberd became, up to the early 19th century, the sign of rank of he company sergeant or the RSM. But by this time the halberd had become smaller and more decorated (the halberds carried by the Vatican Swiss guards are the full size model and AFAIK, they still practice combat with them, as with the swords worn by the NCOs and officers, an obsolete weapon might in some cases be better than no weapon at all, after all their main duty is to protect the Pope, their second job is<ceremonial drill) so that you couldn´t use them anymore for their original purpose.

Jan

#31

Concerning Rifle drill, I met this very nice gentleman this year during the VE day celebrations in the Netherlands in May. Sergeant Joe S. of the Queen´s Own Rifles of Canada kind of adopted a Dutch friend and his Canadian fiancee as an inofficial grandfather, after they came into contact due to my friend and his girlfriend (who at this time was working for the Canadian Juno Beach Centre Museum near Caen) tracing back the history of several members of his old regiment, who got killed between June 6th, 1944 and May 8th, 1945. Sgt. S. is still wearing the uniform issued to him in 1944, the one he got married in to his English wife in 1945. It still fits him 60 years later!

He was a dispatch rider with his unit, doing lots of convoy duty in Britain up to the invasion, but suffered a bad motorcycle accident just about one month before D-day (he went over an embankment and had the bike fall on top of him), so by D-day he was still in hospital curing broken bones, while his unit was fighting. After he recovered, his commander ordered him to train new dispatch riders in Britain.
He still knows all the bugle signals and the old drill.

He is a very nice gentleman, who deserves all respect.

Jan

(Name hidden due to Persec reasons, even though he is not an active soldier anymore)

BTW, the kids were spectators during a liberation memorial parade and wanted to have apicture taken with him.

#32

Glad you put that in about the kids Jan, I thought they were too young to be getting married!!! :smiley:

The Sgts used pikes/halbards to protect the colours in battle. They were also used to make the frame for a flogging!!!

I think the Vatican guard do still train with the halbards, but I think the pope is protected more by the Vatican guards who are armed with Sig Sauer rifles than the ones actually on show these days!!!

It goes back to the attempt on the his life, and the guards litrally couldn’t do any thing except look on!!!

There was a massive rethink on the Pope protection front.

Interesting story on the guard, the swiss mercs who protected the pope centuries ago all died defending him, that is why they are used now.

#33

All the same, I can’t help but suspect it would be unwise to assume the halbeards aren’t sharp and the guards don’t know how to use them :twisted:

#34

Remember the fool who fired some blanks during the Queen’s birthday parade some ten years ago? The guards were about to carve him up with their swords and bayonets… :twisted:

Jan

#35

Seen the video of it, HM doesn’t even turn a hair, and the bloke is very very lucky not to be the first live sabring to death shown on TV. I think the Lifeguards took it quite personally.

#36

Seen the video of it, HM doesn’t even turn a hair, and the bloke is very very lucky not to be the first live sabring to death shown on TV. I think the Lifeguards took it quite personally.[/quote]

Anywhere where we can find this video?

#37

No idea to be honest, I saw it on an Army video once. You could try searching Limewire or something similar I suppose.

#38

The lad who adopted the “on guard” stance had only been in the Army 9 months +/-. He showed a fair bit of determination and thought, bearing in mind many of the queens guards around her didn’t seem to have even noticed!!!

Video here. www.news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/14/newsid_2516000/2516713.stm

#39

1000, for some reason you link doesn’t work. Open it as:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/september/14/newsid_2516000/2516713.stm

for some reason it shows your address at the top, even though it say that address doesn’t exist :?

#40

Got something else wrong too chaps.

The young lad doing the “on guard” thing was when that chinese(?) bloke threw himself at the Royal carrage, about 2-3 years ago (?).

Searching now.