U.S. helped Soviets to beat Nazis, then U.S. 'battled' Soviets decades

Other Wars Cold War
#21

To my mind the US and the West traded and economicly cooperated with the Soviet Union more than ‘battled’ it.

Wouldn’t it have been easier to support Nazi Germany to beat the Soviet Union in the first place? ;-D

Americans and Brits had a good opportunity to form the joint front with Germans ( with new leaders) and anti-communit resistance in the Eastern Europe 1945-1948. But as there were no steps taken in that direction, one may conclude that the existence of the USSR and European communist bloc was more acceptable for them than other variants.

#22

Not too mention that the US would become a rather large market for Japanese (and German) goods long after the War was over…

:lol:

#23

You might have something of a point there. But then again, that beats nuclear winter. Doesn’t it?

Americans and Brits had a good opportunity to form the joint front with Germans ( with new leaders) and anti-communit resistance in the Eastern Europe 1945-1948. But as there were no steps taken in that direction, one may conclude that the existence of the USSR and European communist bloc was more acceptable for them than other variants.

Maybe because there was no real political will for continuing the bloodiest War in history (by a wide margin)…

In fact, American units in the ETO were on the verge of mutiny at the prospect of being sent to fight in Japan…

Not to mention that the British were almost bankrupt and weary, the US didn’t want to keep it’s economy on a war footing indefinitely, and the Red Army wasn’t exactly a push over as they still might have outnumbered the Western forces on the ground…

#24

Hey, you been reading my unpublished biography, that almost describes my Scottish childhood, except for the Church bit. I still have nightmares from the presbyterian upbringing.

#25

Evidence?

Americans and Brits had a good opportunity to form the joint front with Germans ( with new leaders) and anti-communit resistance in the Eastern Europe 1945-1948. But as there were no steps taken in that direction, one may conclude that the existence of the USSR and European communist bloc was more acceptable for them than other variants.

Elaborate.

In particular, demonstrate how America and Britain should or could have formed a front with the Germans (east or west?) and anti-communist resistance (demonstrate its existence and capacity to alter events) to plunge a different regime into the heart of the USSR that ran the show.

Demonstrate how what happened was the fault of failures by America and Britain rather than expansionism by the USSR.

#26

Maybe this one belongs in the Cold war section?

#27

The POW is a separate story. And only the criminal (real and some of imaginary ones) that were in USSR until 1956. And they were not laboring much by the way, IIRC.

Besides it is not the point. It is clear that USSR wanted and did take reparations from Germany. And they stripped all they could (great deal of it was later just trown away and could not be used for various reasons). The winners did what they think was smart to do in that situation. US and UK per instance took all the German patents rights and information.

But Firefly said about Eastern Europe. That is what I want to know what info he has regarding reparations received by USSR from the East European countries.

#28

Not so simply MoS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_reparations#World_War_II
Repatriations in the post -war Europe
After World War II, according to the Potsdam conference held between July 17 and August 2, 1945, Germany was to pay the Allies US$20 billion mainly in machinery, manufacturing plants. Reparations to the Soviet Union stopped in 1953. In addition, in accordance with the agreed upon policy of de-industrialisation and pastoralization of Germany, large numbers of civilian factories were dismantled for transport to France and the UK, or simply destroyed. Dismantling in the west stopped in 1950.

In the end, war victims in many countries were compensated by the property of Germans that were expelled after World War II. Beginning immediately after the German surrender and continuing for the next two years, the United States pursued a vigorous program to harvest all technological and scientific know-how as well as all patents in Germany. Historian John Gimbel, in his book Science Technology and Reparations: Exploitation and Plunder in Postwar Germany, states that the “intellectual reparations” taken by the U.S. and the UK amounted to close to $10 billion dollars. German reparations were partly to be in the form of forced labor. By 1947, approximately 4,000,000 German POW’s and civilians were used as forced labor (under various headings, such as “reparations labor” or “enforced labor”) in the Soviet Union, France, the UK, Belgium and in Germany in U.S run “Military Labor Service Units”.

So not only the USSR used the Germans pows labor.:wink:

According to the Paris Peace Treaties, 1947, Italy agreed to pay reparations of about US$125 million to Yugoslavia, US$105 million to Greece, US$100 million to the Soviet Union, US$25 million to Ethiopia, and US$5 million to Albania. Finland agreed to pay reparations of US$300 million to the Soviet Union. Hungary agreed to pay reparations of US$200 million to the Soviet Union, US$100 million to Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. Romania agreed to pay reparations of US$300 million to the Soviet Union. Bulgaria agreed to pay reparations of $50 million to Greece and $25 million to Yugoslavia. According to the articles of these treaties, the value of US$ was prescribed as 35 US dollars to one troy ounce of pure gold.

True the USSR dismantling and removed as the repatriations about 40% of industrial equipment of the Eastern Germany Prussia. Besides there were a Germans propetry in the Bulgaria, Romania, Chehoslovakia and Hungary that should be dismantling according the Allies agreement
So its WRONG to say that ONLY USSR used the Germns reasources for its profit after the war.
The West enought WELL exploited it too.

The US’s vision for preventing war in Western Europe was democracy and a strong economy. The USSR’s vision for preventing war in Eastern Europe was communist tyranny and poverty. The former seems to have worked…

Now, as for empires: the Soviet empire was allowed to expand post-war (annexations of the Baltic states, and Soviet control satellite states). On the other hand, Britain was divested of its colonies over a period of time (thanks to the US foreign policy which considered it in America’s interest that the British Empire be broken up).

Firstly you are forgetting that the post war polisy of Britain was to take ITS colonies back.Initially they was aimed to restore the British impare in its previous form and ACTIVELY blody suppressed the national-independent movenments in here.
Besides the diring “period of time”( more then 20 years indeed) there ver a several bloody conflicts FOR COLONIES where participated even USA troops.
For instance the bloddy Vietnam war was a last colonian war as well.

Now,Chevan, you horrible little apologist, be a good lad and can it, right?

I would like be a “good lad” MoS.
But it’s not easy when i hear the pure Propoganda ( kinda the Evil East againds Good West) that you guyes sometimes wonder me;)

#29

And what does Burakumin tell about that?:wink:

How do you reconcile this with arguments that the USSR was pretty much self-sufficient and didn’t need or get much benefit from the other Allies during the war, because of the USSR’s vast resources and industrial capacity?

Whan did i told you that the USSR did’t need of allies help during the war?:wink:

#30

No man.
You mean the investment american money that have come to the Japan during the Korean war and was a reason of the Japanes post war economical rise.( Like today and Chinas)
I told about Marshal plan - that was not the Investment Project but ruther the Credit plan.
The Marshal Plan was aimed MOSTLY for the buing the American food.
only the smal part ( about 10-15%) was transformed into the investition programs in Europe.
The Other essential part has come into the USA. It was in sence - the UNDIRECT investment INTO American economy.Not European.
However the Credits need payback- as the resault the manies of the Western States has been captured in finantial dependence.
While the Cold war was still actial - it was all OK. But in prospect it was rather negatiev influence for the Europe.

Beyond this, the US took up the responsibility of defending Japan during the cold war.

Befor all the USA forbid them to have the any essential military forces and had got a Giant retrebution in the 1946.
Then in the beginning of the 1955 in fear of the increase of Soviet Influence over the Europe and Asia the USA developed the program of the stream of American investition to there that really help a much firstly for the USA.

All in all Chevan, before you go off on one of your paranoid rants about the US and western democracies in general next time, please learn a little about the particular subject of your diatribe. You’ll look like far less of an idiot if you do.

If i did not know you for so long time - i would insulted.
But i better go to your advise to learne more about the post war policy and …i found out the figures of post war retrebution of Wetsern Germany.
The Germans periodical “Spiegel” in 1992 got the interesting infor about post war german compensations to the …Isreal.
OVER 85 BILLIONS of marks ( about 40 Billions of dollars) since 1952-1992.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/reparations.html
In the 1952 the after teh strongest USA pressure the Germany was obligated to compensite to the Isreal the 3 billions of Marks during the 14 years.
The MOST amazing fact is thea FROM THE 12,5 billions dollars that was sanctioned by Congress for use in Marshal Plan the ONLY 1,2 billions got the Western Germany in the 1948-1950.
But rigth after that Germany was obligated to pay about $1,5 billions for the creation, building and serviceing of Israel.
However as i wrote above the TOTAL sum of compansations for the 40 years is much more.
This fact just proves that Germany not as much get help from the USA as get the finantial and economical damage in perspective.
If fact the Wester Germany under pressure of USA has payed a the MOST WORLD BIGGEST contribution in the post war world.
If the soviets dismanting the GErmans equipment ONCE after the war (the mostly obsolete and broken under Allies bombing) . The USA milked the Western GErmany for the 40 years.
That’s why the Life-level in Germany has never increased the Japanes one - although tthe GErmany was the best hight-industry state in the Europe untill the ww2.
To the Contrast the Japs who avoid the “Marshal plan” and sush giant “compensations” like Germans ( although the Holocaust was just a kiddish play in comparition with Japanese atrocities in China) has got the ONLY pure investments in the 1950-60 and was enought lucky;)For the while…

#31

Chevan, go read a basic economics textbook, and then reread your last post.

In other news, it is also worth noting that The interest rate on the Marshall plan loans was well below the rate of inflation (1.2% if I remember correctly) . Germany did not spend any of the direct loan, but invested it at a commercial rate of interest and worked with the profits from this.

#32

And it was absolutly right decision of Stalin.
The good example of “what if” is the story in Socialist Romania.
When the Romanian leader Chayhesky inspite of the soviet warnings took the 10 billions credits in the West in the early 1970 for industrialisation - initially it had a positive effect.
There were build a new great plants- during the 1970 the Romanians life level constantly increased.
However in the beginning of the 1980 (right after fall down Oil prices ) they suddenly found out that the there is no a much consumers for the Romanian goods in the world market- the Soviets did not buyd it as well as the West.
As ther resault the Romanian has no enought money to pay interests for the West- the Chauhescu has declared the “new policy of total economy”/ This was a beginning of terrible crisis in the whole Romanian ecomony.
Although they finally cancelled the debts- they was forced to pay OVER 21 billion of dollars to the Western banks ( who several times deceived the Romainias and increased the debt after the unfair “re-indexations”)
This finantial adventure coasts for Chauhescu his life in the 1989…

Another good example of Western finantial “help” via the “cheap” Credits was the USSR during he Gorbachev.
In the late 1980 he took about 30 billions of Credits in the West- resault you all know the full finantial collapse of the USSR.
Next “Great leader” who believed in the “Holy and GOOD American credits” was the Yeltsyn.
This bastard has increased the former Soviet external dept since 50 bln untill the 120 bln.
As the resault the “dark times” in Russian untill the most end of the 1990.

p.s. so the moral is - the ONLY that one has reach the great resault who did no take the credits;)

#33

All that goes to show something rather obvious: Communists don’t “get” the whole economy thing (otherwise they wouldn’t be Communists).

“Yes comrades, we will borrow money from the decadent West to industrialise and produce consumer goods. We will then sell these goods abroad. Don’t bother to check if anybody actually wants to buy the goods at the quality we can produce them, we are a command economy and don’t have to worry about such bourgeois trivialities”… :wink:

#34

The USSR had agreements about trade and economic cooperation with the USA and nearly all the NATO states. It did not suffer from the economic isolation from the West( apart from some short period in the early 1920s).

The USA established the full-extent diplomatic and economic relations in 1933 just when the Soviet government conducted famine genocide.

In particular, demonstrate how America and Britain should or could have formed a front with the Germans (east or west?) and anti-communist resistance (demonstrate its existence and capacity to alter events) to plunge a different regime into the heart of the USSR that ran the show.

There are no doubts that the bulk of Germans as well as its military and political establishment saw it as the only alternative to avoid Soviet occupation in the last six months of the war or even earlier. One has no doubts that the leading figures of the third Reich would have queued to offer their services in removing Hitler and his few true high-ranked supporters (at that time) if the US had seriously suggested the idea of the joint front against the Soviets through the appropriate channels.

#35

All wrong Chevan!
Ceausescu had decided in the early 80’s to pay all the loans not on the due date - which should be in 20-30 years - but in several years (which was - and is - a stupidity). Moreover, since 70’s and through 80’s he spent a lot of money in all kind of industrial projects in Libya, Egypt, Syria, Irak, Iran, Algeria, Pakistan and amazingly Soviet Union. As a side note, in Krivoirog (now in Ukraine) steel works he “invested” one billion USD which now is subject of discussions between Romania and Ukraine.

Therefore, Romania lost his credit as a client to IMF, World Bank and all other financial organizations on earth. No credits have been awarded up to 1990. Should I talk about the misery that you - as a former Soviet citizen or any other former Eastern Europe communist block citizen - couldn’t imagine? This is not the intention of my post.

Bull…t or bo…cks Chevan (let’s see how you’ll translate this one:D - even if I gave you enough clues…). Your affirmations are false entirely. You are in the south of Russia and I’m in Romania. I have lived those times when you have enjoyed Gorbatchev’s era in the USSR. Trust me, I know better than you what happened.
Or should I ask you to reveal the sources for your affirmations?:D:D

#36

This is not amazing considering fact that the some circles in British and American elite supported the Bolsheviks band of Trozkij-Bernshtain in 1917;)

The USA established the full-extent diplomatic and economic relations in 1933 just when the Soviet government conducted famine genocide.

May be because the so called “famine genocide” was just in your ill imagination;)?
And BTW the full-extent diplomatic and economic relations did not prevent the CIA and Mi6 to prepare the anti-soviet actions and diversions simular like to support the UPA bandits int he 1950-yy.?

There are no doubts that the bulk of Germans as well as its military and political establishment saw it as the only alternative to avoid Soviet occupation in the last six months of the war or even earlier. One has no doubts that the leading figures of the third Reich would have queued to offer their services in removing Hitler and his few true high-ranked supporters (at that time) if the US had seriously suggested the idea of the joint front against the Soviets through the appropriate channels.

That is your real level of thinking?
You dream about “join Nazy-Allies front” agains the Soviets?
MAn was who needed in the such “cooperation” in the UK or US during the last mounth of war?
Britains who suffered from the GErmans a lot or the Americans who fierce battled with Germans in air and in Atlantic?
Or may be the Jews in both states who “dreamed to save the GErmany” after the all that they survived in here?
It seems you rather naive.
Only the few hight ranks who absolutly lost the feeling of reality as Hitler had naive hopes that West should save the GErmany.And together with glorious Germany army “crash the Bolsheviks armies near Berlin”.
This was stopid even in that time;)
Although the Allies actually had the special plan “Untinkable” to attack the USSR in post war Europe with the 400 000 of former German POWs.As i remember the Churchil ordered to develop this plan. The date of attack was the 1 jule of the 1945.
So actualy the allies could attack the USSR , but their peoples would not support this idea coz this would be the new total war for the both USSR and Allies.
Coz in thatmoment the Soviets had a most strongest army in the Europe and easy could join to the Japane in the war aggainst USA.

#37

Wow Dany i knew you should appear:)
What is wrong?
Tha fact that he failured to invest with profit the western credits in the Romanian and abroad?
His projects was unprofitable - this is my point too.And this was not his biggest mistake.
But i think you ignore the very importaint question- why had Ceausescu decided to pay all loans BEFOR time?
Simply coz his projects have no enough profit to pay the interests for the debts for next the 20-30 years.
And he , being the man of system just could no invent the other way as to declare the new “polisy of total economy”
But he finaly made it - he had closed all the debts in the 1989.But the peoples already did not understand him.
BTW if the Romania continie to pay the interest 20-30 years the total sum of the payback would increased the 40 bln;)
Look for the Mexica - the resualt of the long time Credit policy is the rise oof the total external dept more then 140 billion ( about 30% of the whole state income).The need 20 billions EVERY year ONLY to compansite the Interests for the creditors;)
This state is in financial bondage now.

Therefore, Romania lost his credit as a client to IMF, World Bank and all other financial organizations on earth. No credits have been awarded up to 1990. Should I talk about the misery that you - as a former Soviet citizen or any other former Eastern Europe communist block citizen - couldn’t imagine? This is not the intention of my post.

Mate , please do not tell me about misery;)
I have to say you that i/m really know that this mean in the mid of the 1990 - not during the communism time.
The one of the serious problem is the 1980 the musery was ONLY in the Poland and Romania.
Coz the local “puppet” gov realised the quite ineffective economical policy.
I know for sure in the USSR there is no such serious situation ( although there were a certain problems also).
Beside in the best states of the Soviet block - the DDR and Czehoslovakian the life level was even higher that in the mid Russia( like and in Baltic states).

Bull…t or bo…cks Chevan (let’s see how you’ll translate this one:D - even if I gave you enough clues…). Your affirmations are false entirely. You are in the south of Russia and I’m in Romania. I have lived those times when you have enjoyed Gorbatchev’s era in the USSR. Trust me, I know better than you what happened.
Or should I ask you to reveal the sources for your affirmations?:D:D

Well i have never enjoyed the Gorbachev mate.
And i trust you;)
So could you tell us what really was going on in the Romania iin late 1980 :wink:
From your point of view
Please…

#38

May be because the so called “famine genocide” was just in your ill imagination;)?

I as well as each Ukrainain have ancestors killed as a result of the famine genocide. So it’s better to choose words.

Today, the heads of state, governments or parliaments of 26 countries, consider the 1932-1933 famine as an act of genocide of Ukrainains. Among these countries are Ukraine, Argentina, Australia, Azerbaijan, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Ecuador, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Spain, United States, and Vatican City. Lots of other states are in the process of official recognition of the artificially created famine as genocide.

And BTW the full-extent diplomatic and economic relations did not prevent the CIA and Mi6 to prepare the anti-soviet actions and diversions simular like to support the UPA bandits int he 1950-yy.?

Meetings between OUN representatives and the CIA and Mi6 took place. But
CIA and Mi6 never provided any palpable support.

You who claimed that the Russians are the main victims of communists and NKVD find nothing better than stick labels of bandits at people who fought against the very same NKVD and communists?

#39

[quote]May be because the so called “famine genocide” was just in your ill imagination?
I as well as each Ukrainain have ancestors killed as a result of the famine genocide. So it’s better to choose words.

Today… 26 countries, consider the 1932-1933 famine as an act of genocide of Ukrainains.[/QUOTE]

Why the Russian view of the history is so different from rest of the world…?

I understand that each country has its own tabus, but mostly knowledge marches on…

_

#40

Why? Because his era marches the end of the Cold War?
I suppose that you have enjoyed Леонид Ильич Брежнев instead, haven’t you?:wink:
Mighty bear who invades Afghanistan in 1979…