U.S. helped Soviets to beat Nazis, then U.S. 'battled' Soviets decades

Because some Russians have their heads up their arse and believe nearly every conspiracy ever created…

And Chevan, your “facts” here are just unsupportable opinion masked as some eternal historical truth…It would also be nice if you actually fully understood the Wiki links you provide which often undercut the overweening argument that you’re trying to make: that is that the the ‘evil dominationist’ US only gave away food and provided; economic aid, manufacturing theory and ergonomics (that its own corporations never actually adopted themselves much to their loss), military security (against the peaceful socialist brotherhood of nations that was never ever expansionist or paranoid), the resulting bounty of trade and economic expansion its markets allowed, and a relative gov’t model that has largely produced peace and stability - only because it benefits us.

And of course, it’s better to live poor, under a totalitarian state, within an sphere that will crush any true autonomous aspirations outside it (Hungry, Prague Spring), and with no access to consumer goods or real social mobility…

It that what you’re saying? Really? It’s a wonder why the Soviet Union even lasted as long as it did… :rolleyes:

Nick, I guess the Soviet-era propaganda has not yet been expunged from either the popular conscience or the school curriculum…

Yeah, we germans have special insight into that phenomenon at least on the part of the popular conscience of the former gdr population, as the school follows the rules of former west-germany(thank god).

This might interest you, as an example of the extent to which the Western press, even down here, is prepared to inform people about such matters.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/a-crime-of-unimaginable-horror/2007/11/28/1196036978721.html

The USSR fell only because it got weak and tried to accommodate elements of the modern world outside the Marxist dream. Or is that the Marxist-Leninist dream? Or the Trotskyist dream? Or the Stalinist reality? Etc, etc, etc. It gets so confusing trying to work out who were the heroes and who were the bastards. More so in Russia, where the most reliable archives are. :rolleyes:

Anyway, the USSR fell because it let its people hear about toilets and toilet paper. Up to that point, they thought it was normal to live in shit. :wink:

You won’t see any of that in North Korea.

And isn’t that a tribute to being stuck in a dictatorial, supposedly communist, time warp which, alas, is consistently pandered to by, of all nations, the bloody Americans. :rolleyes:

That is an artcile writen by the Ukrainian President himself.

By the way, about Holodomor.
It is portraiyed as “genoside of the Ukrainian nation”. I could possible agree on genoside. I.e. without the national attribute (Though it is true that majority of the victims indeed were Ukrainians).

I think that the current official Ukrainian deffinition is misrepresentative.

That’s one of the sad things about genocide history - there is always one group trying to claim exclusive victimhood, and they (perhaps understandably) are offended if people try to point out that others suffered too, feeling that it somehow diminishes their suffering.

A good example of this is the Holocaust. Roughly 6 million Jews were murdered, and this is an unimaginable crime. At the same time, around a million political prisoners of various sorts were murdered, around 2 million Soviet PoWs, half a million Yugoslavs (Serbs and Croats), around half a million Roma (Gypsies), and so on. Remembering the suffering of one group in no way diminishes the magnitude of the suffering of another group, or the magnitude of the crime committed against them.

I generaly agree. But I also have some impression from reading russian and ukrainina blogs about Holodomor. And I can tell you the opinions are more sharp there. The Ukrainian one is very clear that Holodomor was organiazed intentionaly and was targeting specificaly Ukrainians.

A couple of days ago Mr.Vasily Timchina (the head of the organisation “Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists” which is part of the party block whose overl head is the Ukrainian president himself) declared during the oppening of the monument commemorating the Holodomor victims, literally:
""The time has come, and the blood of the jews and moskals will turn the river Dniepr red!

Remark: moskals = russians

When addressed by a journalist afterwards he explained:
Among the soviet leadership. which organised the wide scale Holodomor of Ukrainian people, the jews were the absolute majority. Therefor the responsibility for the deaths of the victims in 1932-1933 rests on jewish people. That is what I ment speaking on 24 of November during the meeting.

So it is, unfortunately, not as plain as the Ukrainian president says in his article: “We are not doing so out of a desire for revenge or to make a partisan political point. We know that the Russian people were among Stalin’s foremost victims. Apportioning blame to their living descendants is the last thing on our minds. Our only wish is for this crime to be understood for what it truly was.

There still seems to be a disturbing amount of selectively irrational anti-Jewish sentiment in eastern Europe at even senior political levels.

Why aren’t misdeeds by, say, Christians and Copts a source of similarly virulent anti-Christian and anti-Copt hatred?

Or laid at the door of atheists, like Stalin?

Zionists piss me off to the nth degree, but when I read rubbish like the quote attributed to Timchina, and we have synagogues here plastered with swastikas and Jewish graves desecrated and other neo-Nazi acts for no reason other than mindless anti-Semitism, I can’t blame those Jews who feel they need their own country to be free of such brainless, rabid hatred that shows no sign of abating despite what should have been the horrible lessons the Nazis gave the world about such attitudes and conduct.

They’re the Japanese equivalent of India’s untouchables, as part of Japan’s highly discriminatory social structure. The following outlines just how little equality there is in Japanese society, for some people.

Japan has five major minority groups: Burakumin (a caste-based group); Okinawans (an indigenous group); Ainu (an indigenous group); Japanese-born Koreans; and migrant workers from other countries. Discrimination against many of these groups has its origins in the imperialist and feudal periods in Japan’s history. In the eighth century, the Japanese expanded their territory into the lands of the Ainu and Okinawans, two indigenous groups whose lands have now been annexed into modern day Japan. Discrimination from Japan’s feudal society also exists against the “outcasts” called the Buraku. Up to this point, there have been no Burakus and only one Ainu in the Diet, Japan’s national parliament.

The treatment of the culturally distinct Okinawans is another significant concern. Together, the 160 islands of the Okinawan Perfecture in the East China Sea, of which 48 are inhabited, are called the Ryukyu Islands. Today, Okinawa houses approximately 1.3 million people who have a distinct culture and language from mainstream Japanese. Their slightly darker skin colour and Chinese cultural influences have been prejudicially used to distinguish and discriminate against them.

Despite previous efforts by the Okinawans themselves, including adapting to Japanese names and even hairstyles, they continue to face significant discrimination. Japanese atrocities against the loyal Okinawans during the Pacific War convinced the islanders that they were merely expendable assets for the mainland Japanese. Now, the desire to assimilate into Japanese society has been replaced by a new pride in their culture and traditions. Okinawans perceive themselves as a separate people who simply live in Japan. American entrance into Okinawa was the catalyst for a re-evaluation of their attitudes toward mainland Japan. Okinawans generally harbour more animosity toward mainland Japan than toward the American military which has been stationed since the end of WW II and occupies 20 percent of the island. Okinawans feel that the rest of Japan should share in the burden of providing land for the American military. American military presence in Okinawa has also led to intermarriage between Okinawan women and American men. Children of mixed blood have faced even greater discrimination than their Okinawan relatives. According to Japanese law, children of mixed Okinawan and American blood do not qualify for citizenship; they have consequently remained stateless.

Japanese traditions that distinguished between “acceptable” and “unacceptable” occupations remain the core element of conflict between the majority and the numerically largest and physically least visible minority group called Burakumin or Buraku. During the Tokugawa era, Japan’s population was ranked in four tiers based on neo-Confucian ideology. Modern day Buraku people descended from the two lowest groups – comprising beggars, itinerant entertainers, fugitives, and those performing tasks such as animal slaughter and disposing of the dead. They have accordingly inherited the prejudice inherent in the rigid caste system. Ethnically, linguistically, culturally and religiously, the Burakumin, who make up about two percent of the population, are indistinguishable. Unfortunately, this social context has both stigmatised the Buraku and forced many to attempt “passing” for mainstream Japanese. Burakumin who are caught trying to “pass” are severely punished. The punishment is often in the form of social ostracism experienced in the workplace and through discriminatory graffiti in public places.

The Burakumin continue to be disadvantaged. Although advances have been made, Japanese society, in general, still views Burakumin as being destined to live an unsavoury life. The workplace, educational and governmental institutions continue to perpetuate these biases, placing the Burakumin at a disadvantaged position in society. Employers in all sectors continue to refuse hiring a person if he or she is Buraku. Discrimination has not been confined to employment, but affects all aspects of the Burakumin’s lives, including social services, housing, and social relations. As one indicator of societal prejudice, wedding engagements are often broken off because either the bride or groom is discovered to be Buraku. The Buraku are segregated into ghettos pre-dominantly located in the Awaji district. Despite government efforts to address the situation, poor supervision of project implementation has prevented any significant improvement in their living condition. Educational and environmental standards are lower in these ghettos. The rate of high school dropouts is significantly higher among Burakumin.

http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF39.htm

Whan did i told you that the USSR did’t need of allies help during the war?:wink:

I think we’ve already flogged that topic way past death. :wink:

Becouse we do not need to listen the any Nazy propoganda blunder that was later “improved” by the Wasington during cold war.
May be you do not know this fact but the “famine henocide” was firstly mentioned in the Nazy newspaper in 1933 as the “evidence of the Jewish-bolshevick terror agains the Ukraine peasans”. They simply lied that this was ethnically aimed event - coz in the same time the peasants of Russia and Kazahstan were in the simular hard conditions.
Later the “jews” were changed to the “Soviet regime”.
But the sense were the same- to present the Holodomore as the Ethnically oriented actions.

Yea it better to choose the words Kato.
Especially when you deny the Ethnical Clearising of peoples in Volun.
It is really strange that the man who few threads ago want to prove us that the Negros are subhumans ;)Now tells about moral rules:)
So on you mind ONLY the Ukrainians lives are importains to choose the worlds?

Today, the heads of state, governments or parliaments of 26 countries, consider the 1932-1933 famine as an act of genocide of Ukrainains. Among these countries are Ukraine, Argentina, Australia, Azerbaijan, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Ecuador, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Spain, United States, and Vatican City. Lots of other states are in the process of official recognition of the artificially created famine as genocide.

Wrong consequence of states Kato.
You should write so:The states that considered famine as henocide were
1.Nazi Germany and Nazy controlled Europe in 1933-45
2. The USA and american controlled states - in 1953 - untill now.
3. The the newest Baltic “democraties” who almost officially support domestic Neo-nazy in , installs the monuments and marched the Waffen-SS parades.

4. The so called “orange” states like Ukraine and Georgia where the Nationalistic politicans tryed to Use the Idea of “External threat” in its personal politica interests.All those states are in deep political and economical crisys coz its polarisation of the society or dictators methods of rulling.

Meetings between OUN representatives and the CIA and Mi6 took place. But
CIA and Mi6 never provided any palpable support.

They really planned the essential support, however the Kim Philby has sended the infor about it to the USSR and KGB could liqudate in the most beginning.

You who claimed that the Russians are the main victims of communists and NKVD find nothing better than stick labels of bandits at people who fought against the very same NKVD and communists?

Not so.
I/m really claimed that the Russians were the main victims of Red TError compain in the 1918-1922.
But i never claimed the OTHER nations are guilt in this tragedy.
Unlike you who blaimed the “foreign Jews and Moskalies in Comparty of Ukraine” in such terrible resault of deculakusations in Ukraine in other thread.

Your posting is inspied by the official Soviet and modern Russian propaganda. Just the same style. All the different points of view are immediately connected to Nazism.

This wasn’t a genocide anyway mate.
Coz the very simple reason - the final resault of collectivisation was to build the industry in USSR ( and in Ukraine particulary).
Whatever today spread the Nationalists in the Ukraine and other states - the direct resault of the collectivsation was a New plants and the total increasing the life level in the mid-end of 1930.
This is rather stoopid to consider the Holodomore as the action of genocide- why in this way Stalin has insisted to invest a giants resources and money in the Ukraine? To finally kill the Ukrainians?
We both know that this is wrong, as well as Kato.
But the populist politicans want to “Join its the Nations” around them and simply used the old fascists tactics and slogans “to guilt the one foreign nation in all problems”.
We all know how they has finished;)
I think the famine of the 1932-33 was a serious mistake of the Soviets, but it wasn’t a planned evil action.

Kato i have no claims at the Ukrainians.
You know it.
But the newest Ukrainian politics want to blame the neighbourg state in its PERSONAL problems.
And to the contrast the “modern Russian” propoganda is not aimed to present the Ukraine as the “Evil state” who treat our independence.
This is the first matter of Nazy ( and probably soviets).
So if you will not use the old Nazy “point of views” in future - we will have no troubles with it.

BTW Kato you “accidentally” forgot about Kazahstan in your list os states that "recongize the famine as genocide’.
As we know the famine in Kazahstan was as worst as was the Ukrainian one in 1932-33
However this fact do not force them to blaime the anybody in the , right?
So you rather mistaken about “artificial famine”.

Chevan, you’re turning this into the internet equivalent of crayoning all over the walls.

Locked for a bit so people can calm down and act sensibly. I may reopen this in a few days, but if you don’t all behave yourselves it’ll end up being deleted.

Well, that would be a first. :smiley:

Reopened. You’re all adults, act like it (and no, I’m not referring to any one individual here before you ask).