I recounted this thread to some of my relatives, who are oddly enough, also Hrvatski, and in general, their response was:
- Sergeant Major is quite objective and reasonable is his statements, unlike gun-ho Nick here.
That’s not the point. You don’t mess with some1 or allies of some1 who has 10.000 nuclear/hydrogen warheads.
Is it ? You mean leader of neo-Nazi party (openly against Russian minority) becomes minister of Interior or defence ?
[QUOTE=Nickdfresh;194284]Yeah, um, try to read a bit about things. The Soviet Red Army was quite large and well funded prior to WWII. You’re drawing silly historical parallels. Russian tanks would be smoldering hulks before they got too close to Warsaw…
[/quote]
Err, no they wouldn’t.
Generally speaking, Russian military manufacturing capability overall outmaches anything in EU.
a) You didn’t save shit thank you very much. When (I would say foreign sponsored) war started in 1991 all UN did was impose arms embargo to Bosnia and Croatia effectively giving JNA go ahead. And you didn’t arm any1.
b) Legally speaking, until Yugoslavia was officially disbanded and new Republics gained international recognition, JNA indeed was only legitimate military force (unfortunately fighting alongside Serbian extreme right formations).
c) Politicians of that time with similar democratic gung-ho attitude of yours brought hatred unimaginable only few years before in Ex-Yu. Same is happening in Ukraine. I saw that scenario already.
I read all of Beevor’s books and draw conclusions. Did you not notice how British and Canadian Army could not dislodge 12 SS Hitlerjugend for months in Caen but Russians annihilated 3 better SS divisions (alongside generally bigger Wehrmacht formations) in weeks in Austria&Budapest ? Ring a bell ?
gun-ho presto democracy policy. Take a free tour from Libya-Syria-Iraq to Afganistan.
- Stupid US official was obviously clear enough.
- It is clear that protesters were trained, armed and organized.
- Average of “Entire populace” elected Yanukovich in first place. How bout that sugar pops ? I didn’t see 40 million Ukranians in Kiev. Just 10.000 armed, organized protesters with whom any decent police should have dealt with waiting regular elections, sparing Ukraine of civil war it allowed itself to get into.
- All previous Ukraine govt. were obviously corrupt. Including legally elected Julia Timoschenko. Did you see any Russians rioting in Kiev square ?
- I risk my logical reasoning with next statement. Putin have poisoned and killed his enemies to well being of Russia today. What is it ? Unemployment 5%, GDP 3 times as before him and foreign reserves highest ever. Yes, compared to all leaders before him in Russia, Putin is by far the best since Peter The Great. And he is not creating New World Order, unlike some.
- True, Croatia helped out it’s minority in Bosnia. Suspected war criminals are in Hague, (unlike any Americans who killed millions only in Vietnam). However, it never escalated to full scale ethnic cleansing Serbs carried out.
- I was not in Army and did not kill any1 nor do I spread wholesale hatred. However, “democratic” bribed politicians (by the west of course, not by Russia) brought about great misfortunes which many did not deserve. I am at least smart to see that. Almost same is happening in Ukraine.
You don’t know bout New World Order ? The one ISIL is part of ?
Serb minority brought about their misfortune by themselves. They could enjoy all civil rights as all other minorities do but they decided otherwise.
- Not even 1 political party is officially&sentimentally associated with ww2 nazi colaborator regime.
- Defense of Dubrovnik is not much compared to that of Vukovar. There were like 3000 Croatian volunteers completely surrounded for 2 months fighting without any heavy weapons against some 30.000 elite JNA formations and Serb death squads. Entire city was leveled to ground because of shelling.
Take Debalcevo in Ukraine for comparison. Ukraine Army could field millions of soldiers, they had all heavy weaponry they needed there and fled in 10 days after being surrounded. Utter disgrace.
If you provoke war with Russia it is you who should go there dying, not me. Some of mine neighbor’s ancestors left their bones in Stalingrad.
They wouldn’t by any chance be descendants of nazi collaborators who fled, would they :):).
Just kidding.
*** kisser 
That’s not the point. You don’t mess with some1 or allies of some1 who has 10.000 nuclear/hydrogen warheads.
No, you just let them act like Nazis because they have nukes even though one has even more nukes than they do. You know? Like how the Ukrainians gave up their nukes in 1991 with guarantees from the West of their sovereignty against Soviet-Russian aggression? You think your brave, Hero of the Soviet Union Putin would be doing this if they still had nukes?
Is it ? You mean leader of neo-Nazi party (openly against Russian minority) becomes minister of Interior or defence ?
Which politicians and which parties? Weren’t your Ustasha Parties EVEN WORSE than the Nazis in terms of their brutality? Wasn’t there censorship and a banned cartoon featuring (sarcastically) “heroes of Croatia’s past” rdiculing a policy of naming streets after Ustasha leaders by showing roadsigns like “Hitler Boulevard” and Goebbels Strasse?
Err, no they wouldn’t.
Generally speaking, Russian military manufacturing capability overall outmaches anything in EU.
Specifically what? What do they manufacture and sell these days? Gas? T-90 tanks?
Feel free to elaborate on this…
a) You didn’t save shit thank you very much. When (I would say foreign sponsored) war started in 1991 all UN did was impose arms embargo to Bosnia and Croatia effectively giving JNA go ahead. And you didn’t arm any1.
You were trained and armed in 1995 for the blitz eastward by ex-U.S. Army and ex-officers from NATO armies. There were an awful lot of tanks and arms that came from somewhere. We didn’t save you? Is your capital Belgrade?
b) Legally speaking, until Yugoslavia was officially disbanded and new Republics gained international recognition, JNA indeed was only legitimate military force (unfortunately fighting alongside Serbian extreme right formations).
c) Politicians of that time with similar democratic gung-ho attitude of yours brought hatred unimaginable only few years before in Ex-Yu. Same is happening in Ukraine. I saw that scenario already.
Strawman arguments…
I read all of Beevor’s books and draw conclusions. Did you not notice how British and Canadian Army could not dislodge 12 SS Hitlerjugend for months in Caen but Russians annihilated 3 better SS divisions (alongside generally bigger Wehrmacht formations) in weeks in Austria&Budapest ? Ring a bell ?
Silly red herring arguments and comparisons. The Western Allies took France rapidly and could have driven deeply into Germany once the collapse of the Wehrmacht forces in the West took place after Cobra. They simply ran out of gas. The Red Army had a much shorter logistical chain, one based largely on American trucks…
Are you trying to imply that Russians are inherently better fighters or something? like the well over one million that surrendered in the initial German onslaught?
gun-ho presto democracy policy. Take a free tour from Libya-Syria-Iraq to Afganistan.
Or internet troll-strawman arguments that I never made
- Stupid US official was obviously clear enough.
Which one? we have a lot of those so you’ll have to be more specific…
- It is clear that protesters were trained, armed and organized.
Maybe they went to protestor camp? or maybe they just had a lot of practice, like months of it?
- Average of “Entire populace” elected Yanukovich in first place. How bout that sugar pops ? I didn’t see 40 million Ukranians in Kiev. Just 10.000 armed, organized protesters with whom any decent police should have dealt with waiting regular elections, sparing Ukraine of civil war it allowed itself to get into.
Again strawman, Yanukovych was elected, but his popularity was well below 30% by the end and his regime was untenable. He lost even the Russo-centric Ukrainians that were his base of support to begin with…
- All previous Ukraine govt. were obviously corrupt. Including legally elected Julia Timoschenko. Did you see any Russians rioting in Kiev square ?
They reached a tipping point though, although Ukraine is notoriously corrupt to this day…
- I risk my logical reasoning with next statement. Putin have poisoned and killed his enemies to well being of Russia today. What is it ? Unemployment 5%, GDP 3 times as before him and foreign reserves highest ever. Yes, compared to all leaders before him in Russia, Putin is by far the best since Peter The Great. And he is not creating New World Order, unlike some.
Sounds sort of like another head of state.
- True, Croatia helped out it’s minority in Bosnia. Suspected war criminals are in Hague, (unlike any Americans who killed millions only in Vietnam). However, it never escalated to full scale ethnic cleansing Serbs carried out.
We didn’t kill “millions” in Vietnam, the Vietnamese were pretty good at killing themselves, both sides…
- I was not in Army and did not kill any1 nor do I spread wholesale hatred. However, “democratic” bribed politicians (by the west of course, not by Russia) brought about great misfortunes which many did not deserve. I am at least smart to see that. Almost same is happening in Ukraine.
So are you going to leave the evil Western, NATO-Croatian farce to live in Russia? Oh, yeah, their economy you gloat over is tanking…
You don’t know bout New World Order ? The one ISIL is part of ?
Oh, now the conspiracy shit :mrgreen:
Serb minority brought about their misfortune by themselves. They could enjoy all civil rights as all other minorities do but they decided otherwise.
Some people deserve ethnic cleansing more than others I suppose. But they did reap the whirlwind…
- Not even 1 political party is officially&sentimentally associated with ww2 nazi colaborator regime.
- Defense of Dubrovnik is not much compared to that of Vukovar. There were like 3000 Croatian volunteers completely surrounded for 2 months fighting without any heavy weapons against some 30.000 elite JNA formations and Serb death squads. Entire city was leveled to ground because of shelling.
Take Debalcevo in Ukraine for comparison. Ukraine Army could field millions of soldiers, they had all heavy weaponry they needed there and fled in 10 days after being surrounded. Utter disgrace.
Um, there is much respect in the Russian-Ukrainian separatists for the fighting capacity of the Ukrainians, especially the ones that help out in the Donetsk Airport (or what’s left of it) for months while virtually surrounded. They Ukrainian military is outdated and weakened through years of neglect. And “millions of men”? LOL really? They’re struggling to get to 200,000. War costs money. You know, especially when your forces have an “arms embargo” against them, like the Ukrainians did…
If you provoke war with Russia it is you who should go there dying, not me. Some of mine neighbor’s ancestors left their bones in Stalingrad.
But you’re part of NATO now 
Actually, Yanukovych was at less than 5% popularity at the end of his reign…
Quote from Witman111: "They wouldn’t by any chance be descendants of nazi collaborators who fled, would they .
Just kidding. "
None of them are old enough to have been there at the time, but they did say that they would rather have been aligned with the Germans than to go mouth first (their words) into the steaming pile of Communism. (my words, as theirs were far more profane, if not more accurate. ) Personally, I have no business making a judgements about which old relatives did what, as my branch of the family left well before WW I and whatever fighting they may have done was under the Flag of the United States. Now while I have no business judging the remnant’s choice of evils, I do not blame any that refused to bend over to the Soviets. And the present relatives have not changed their above opinions , and have enjoyed a good laugh. Perhaps you should try stand up comedy, maybe do a double act with Yakov Smirnoff.
The BBC reports that, a few nights ago, Russian Television (proprietor, V. Putin) screened a documentary called “Crimea - the Road to the Motherland”, recounting the glorious (recent) history of Russia’s heroic (if illegal) annexation of the Crimea from Ukraine. The hero of this piece (naturally) was one V. Putin, who was projected as having been in full control of the situation from the beginning (very doubtful indeed). One interesting statement made by Putin in the course of an interview for the programme was that he had been ready to “bring Russia’s nuclear arsenal to readiness” in defence of the rights of Russians in the Crimea. These Russians were, apparently, being repressed by evil Ukrainian neo-Nazis in the Crimea; Crimea had “always” been part of Russia (forget about the Crimean Tatars) and Putin had (so he says) been perfectly willing to power up his nukes to protect the interests of his Little Russian Brothers (not to mention of Russia) in the peninsula.
Bluster ? Certainly. To be ignored ? Not so sure. We had a number of blusterfests of this sort during Cold War I, of which the Cuban Missile Crisis was only the worst. The problem with this sort of bluster, in the presence of real, actual nukes, is that even if it is very carefully calculated, the poisonous, hostile nature of this sort of political poker game can easily result in one, or both principal players backing themselves in a political situation so dangerous that it would make the Strangelovian “Doomsday Machine” redundant. This very nearly happened in the Cuban Missile Crisis; only the dogged resilience of President Kennedy (who firmly resisted the adoption by the US of the “Jack D. Ripper” option) and the cleverness of the Soviets (willing to do a reasonable secret deal) may have saved the world from … God knows what. In Putin’s case, his interest in preserving his personal power in the face of a faltering economy makes stoking up Russian nationalism with such statements particularly dangerous. I am old enough to remember that this sort of megaphone diplomacy, combined with domestic propaganda, could leave a leader with his finger hovering dangerously over that “Little Red Button”. Scary. I mean it - scary.
I suppose one thing half-good to come out of this is that it might wake up many younger Westerners, at least, to the fact that we are in the era of Cold War II. I doubt it, though. The era of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) has no reality for many people much under 30 years of age, and many of their elders simply refuse to “go back there”. And yet, the reality of MAD is still there. In spite of a degree of nuclear disarmament in recent decades, there are still quite enough nukes around to reduce the northern half of the globe to an irrevocably polluted cinder, and the globe as a whole to an ultra-toxic nuclear desert. Believe it or not.
One point - who was Putin thinking of as a target for his nukes ? Any of those available could have resulted in Obama’s finger hovering nervously over his “Little Red Button”. Answer on a postcard … Yours from the War Room, JR.
No disagreement (I recall sitting in a schoolyard during the Cuban Missile Crisis aged about 12 discussing with another kid whether we’d see the missiles coming or just get vaporised without warning), but here’s a tangential thought.
Vlad the Inhaler is gung ho about reclaiming the old Russian Empire (how quaint to see the toy soldiers opening the big doors in the ornate palace for the former KGB committed communist), and generally pissing off just about everyone except Russians nostalgic for the old Russian and or Soviet empire. Meanwhile China retains a curious mix of Communist Party control of a vibrant capitalist economy which, relative to Russia, just steams on to bigger and better things without any of the internal or external problems besetting Putin’s dictatorship.
China has at least as many problems of diverse cultures, religions and desires for independence in various regions as would Russia if it could recapture its old empire but, even allowing for China being no less oppressive than Russia, China has undoubtedly maintained greater harmony in, or at least control of, those potentially difficult regions.
The paradox is that Russia as a former communist state turned nominally capitalist is considerably less successful as a capitalist state than China is under what remains as old style, albeit modified, communist party control of rampant capitalism.
Name five items in any major store you go to which are made in, or emanate from, Russia. Probably zero.
Compare that with most of everything else, much of which comes from China.
I’d suggest that this indicates that apart from exploitation of some easy resources such as gas to Western Europe, Russia doesn’t really have a sustainable economy based on production and trade, while China does.
Russia ends up being a kleptocracy to benefit the dictator and oligarchs which tends towards stagnation which can be corrected only by grabbing more productive territory, such as the food bowl Ukraine, while China becomes a major international trader able to trade with the rest of the world on terms profitable to both.
So, is Vlad just reclaiming the Russian empire out of ancient pride, or grabbing the Crimea and Ukraine out of necessity to prop up a Russian economy which is essentially a Ponzi scheme?
Perfect analogy JR, I congratulate you.
Rising Sun has surely been critical of recent US policy which was carried out to “hijack” world resources for benefit of… dollar. for dollars you can buy oil … and who prints dollars ? FED.
That uncle Vlad is NOT doing, going around globe, establishing monopolies and “crony” so called “democratic” colonies with aircraft carriers.
I am amazed none of you see that Russians today live much better than EVER before. BDP - highest ever, personal income - highest ever, unemployment level - lowest ever, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_of_Russia_since_1989.svg
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/unemployment-rate
NONE of this would have happened if Putin was not in pover. You would still have various Khodorkovki’s grabbing all the profits from Russian resources for themselves and leaving others to starve and vanish in unemployment. Yes, Putin is Russian hero. And rightfully so.
Russian is still very much socialist country, where “haves” subsidize “have-nots” and that suits Russians fine. They still have far better standard of living than Chinese.
This is just bout only argument you have. Yes, Putin broke international law and would not attack Ukraine had it had nuclear arsenal. However, west had brought Ukraine revolution not Russia. Russia respected Ms. Timoschenko’s election before Yanukovich.
Europe certainly saw it’s share of massacres. Which kinda falls in comparison to what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki where you pulverized everything from humans to bacteria.
They make some of best class IV jet fighters. T-90 is by no means obsolete it has reactive armor and all necessary bells and whistles. Not to mention something like this
http://www.businessinsider.com/plans-for-russias-t-14-armata-tank-2015-3
Germans had slightly better tanks, did they win ? No. Russian manufacturing capability did. Which it has to this day.
Like I said, you didn’t save no1 in Croatia 1991 and no1 in Bosnia in 1995. You may have saved some in Kosovo 1999.
Yes, I DO. Russians developed specific sort of patriotism which fueled their anger at Germans so they did not count their losses much. In 1944 I would say Russia had best strategic and tactical generals in world.
They crushed hundreds of German divisions who resisted desperately not to let Russians over Oder river not surrendering like ones in west hoping for Americans to arrive as soon as possible. French crushed none in 1941 and English crushed almost none in Africa 1942, Rommel run out of supplies there. Italians don’t count.
Yes you did. Not to mention stuff like agent orange…
I am smart enough not to play war for Wall street gangsters.
Creation of “world government” and “world laws” is continuous process which robes countries of their sovereignty. In trade and economy it is complete (NAFTA, WTO, EU). In political sense it near completion (EU, UN).
You have security council deciding whether is it right to attack some country or not. Are you shitting me ?
One point that is relevant is that the Germans seem to have resisted the Soviets with much greater determination than the western allies. They seem to have been more reluctant to surrender on the eastern front.