OMG! Unbelievable. I stand by my statements, all Russians currently posting on this board are mentally defective liars and trolls.
The Nazis weren’t even in POWER IN 1932!!!
The fact is that YOUR comments about Russians were no different than anti-Semitic comments that overgeneralize and condemn entire ethnicities. Somehow you missed the similarity.
Once again you make it a point to note ethnicity. I have the feeling that if someone started talking about some “Jewish asshole” that person wouldn’t be on here very long.
“The Ukrainians”? That’s a pretty big group there. Second, I haven’t seen ANY credible evidence linking the alleged DIOXIN(this is not a “biological agent”) attack to the Russian government. The blame was on Yanukovich, his opponent, but that was never proven.
Moron, it wasn’t blamed on Putin. I see that it’s not ok for a former-KGB officer to be president of his country but apparently it’s ok for America to have a former CIA-director as its president.
To a totally ignorant moron such as yourself, my statements MUST sound rather mindboggling don’t they?
I been posting this all along.
For debunking of the Ukrainian “famine genocide” one can find online Douglas Tottle’s Ukrainian Famine: Famine, Fraud, and Fascism, among other sources.
Oh I know. The Nazis were the root of all evil, and Stalinism was just super! Whatever, you’re just another mindless apologist. I suppose the Soviets didn’t kill the Pole officers at Katyn as well?
The famine story was advanced by the fanatical OUN fascists and helped by the Nazi press as well as the American Hearst press. When the story became popular again during the Cold War, the culprits were ex-OUN emigres, many of them wanted for possible war crimes.
LOL Oh how fascinating, a quick Google search reveals this site: http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/
I guess they’re fascist Ukrainian agents as well?
Get ready for a revelation, retard:
THE NAZIS STILL HAD THEIR OWN NEWSPAPERS IN 1932, BEFORE THE CAME TO POWER!!! INCREDIBLE!!! BONUS!!! THE STORY DID NOT APPEAR IN AMERICA UNTIL AFTER THE NAZIS TOOK POWER!! WOW!
When did any of us say that Stalin’s reign(there is no such thing as “Stalinism”) was “just super”? Stalin was in power during the most dangerous era Russia has ever faced. Moreover, many of the excesses that happened were outside of his control. His attempt to centralize control was in order to reign in the chaos.
Well here’s the problem Nick, your quick Google search doesn’t really hold a candle to my years of independent research. Once again your ignorance trips you up because if you were to check out THIS part of the site:
You would find that the people who run this site(probably don’t even live in Ukraine) seem to have a love affair with the pro-Nazi UPA. I am familiar with that site from many years ago and their attitude is pro-Fascist. Now of course they claim that the UPA also fought the Nazis but this is simply laughable. They cannot produce anything to prove that the UPA was a real opponent of the occupiers. There are plenty of documents showing their support for the Nazis.
Nope, just ultra-nationalist idiots. You get to know a lot of these people from various countries in my line of work.
You know, you are really arguing out of your league here. Your best bet is to admit to yourself that you don’t really know that much about Ukraine and perhaps it would be better to avoid that issue.
AMENDMENT: Notice that the link you provided has some photos showing the pictures from the famine. ONE small problem! These pictures have been proven DECADES ago to be fakes- they were taken during the 1921-22 famine, not in the 30s. For over sixty years this “famine genocide” has relied on a HANDFUL of photographs that were taken from the 21-22 Volga famine.
Also, note that it identifies “deniers” and posts links to their work, yet it doesn’t even attempt to rebut the arguments. All it says is basically “these people praise Stalin”. Well that’s not true, Jeff Copplan certainly didn’t in his work. Douglas Tottle did not either.
Tottle PUBLICLY confronted the makers of Harvest of Sorrow back in the 80’s and they have never even ATTEMPTED to rebut his argument.
And the fact is you don’t care about anti-Semitism, and only recite the typical apologist affirmations. LOL You deny a historical truth by means of the “Internet”.
Once again you make it a point to note ethnicity. I have the feeling that if someone started talking about some “Jewish asshole” that person wouldn’t be on here very long.
Chevan has been calling me Jewish (even though I am not), and has been reciting the same Jewish media myths, the same ones the Nazis used to defame them and set in motion the Holocaust.
You seem rather selective as to which one is offensive.
BTW, your pal Chevan incompetently started a thread using pictures to imply that all Americans are predisposed to Nazism, without providing any other evidence. He immediately became defensive rather than just admitting he made an error when he was “called” on it.
He is a fucking asshole, and should be banned as a troll in my opinion, because he has started three fights now based only on a hypercritical analysis of Western Ally policies, while uncritically and completely and smugly ignoring any general criticisms of Soviet actions.
It speaks volumes…
“The Ukrainians”? That’s a pretty big group there. Second, I haven’t seen ANY credible evidence linking the alleged DIOXIN(this is not a “biological agent”) attack to the Russian government. The blame was on Yanukovich, his opponent, but that was never proven.
The insinuation was the Yanukovich was backed by Russian intelligence, meddling in Ukrainian affairs for their own ends.
Moron, it wasn’t blamed on Putin. I see that it’s not ok for a former-KGB officer to be president of his country but apparently it’s ok for America to have a former CIA-director as its president.
Actually, I don’t particularly like that President. In fact, I’ve been critical of many of my gov’ts policies and this can be verified, whereas it seems the Russians here are hypersensitive and bristle at any mention about their gov’t in a negative light. It’s almost like they work for it or something.
To a totally ignorant moron such as yourself, my statements MUST sound rather mindboggling don’t they?
To an “ignorant moron” such as myself, you sound very reasonable and well spoken with a good command of English, until you go into the denial-mode of anything negative about Russia, past or present. They you just sound like a smarmy, lying asshole.
Really? Tell me why so many Ukrainians supported the Nazis initially, as did many Russians then. And in fact many Ukrainians did support the German Army initially, then attacked them as they began to starve the native population. Maybe they had to leave because to Soviet polices, which were patently brutal towards them that they had little choice. It’s often said that Hitler could have easily conquered The USSR if he had arrived as a “liberator” as opposed as a dominator.
And as opposed to your site run by pro-Communist Russians? LOL
Thank you for repeating the Stalinist lies though.
Nope, just ultra-nationalist idiots. You get to know a lot of these people from various countries in my line of work.
Mine too. I mean, it’s not like you have a Soviet flag in your avatar or something.
You know, you are really arguing out of your league here. Your best bet is to admit to yourself that you don’t really know that much about Ukraine and perhaps it would be better to avoid that issue.
Perhaps its best not to expose oneself as a biased liar when speaking about historical realities. Perhaps you are the one that shouldn’t be arguing that “it’s all a fascist conspiracy?”
AMENDMENT: Notice that the link you provided has some photos showing the pictures from the famine. ONE small problem! These pictures have been proven DECADES ago to be fakes- they were taken during the 1921-22 famine, not in the 30s. For over sixty years this “famine genocide” has relied on a HANDFUL of photographs that were taken from the 21-22 Volga famine.
Also, note that it identifies “deniers” and posts links to their work, yet it doesn’t even attempt to rebut the arguments. All it says is basically “these people praise Stalin”. Well that’s not true, Jeff Copplan certainly didn’t in his work. Douglas Tottle did not either.
Tottle PUBLICLY confronted the makers of Harvest of Sorrow back in the 80’s and they have never even ATTEMPTED to rebut his argument.
Why would they? Who “exposed” those photos as fakes? More apologists? No wonder why the Ukraine couldn’t get away form you guys fast enough.
If I’m so ignorant of the Ukraine, then what is their policy regarding Russia?
WTF are you talking about?
Not at all, they can both be considered offensive. So it is you that is selective. I told Chevan how the holocaust revisionists really work and why one should not listen to their claims. I also provided sources that debunk the revisionist claims.
That’s his problem, not mine.
Well to be honest I haven’t been here long enough to see the general character of the board but I notice a LOT of anti-Soviet and actually anti-Russian propaganda repeatedly posted here. That’s not to say that it’s all untrue, but one should always remember that if you are America, British, or even Polish, your governments aided and allied with that “evil empire” so you share complicity as well.
Right, which wasn’t proven. What WAS proven was the US meddling in the form of funding for the “revolution” by Soros and the US government.
Do you remember how pissed everyone was when they found the DNC was receiving money from the Chinese(1996)? Apparently it’s ok for the US to do the same thing to other countries though.
Well you haven’t heard my own criticism on the Russian government. I hate Putin, Yuschenko, Yanukovich, and all these bastards. In Eastern Europe there’s generally two choices- vote for your country to be run by local criminals(Putin) or foreign ones(Soros, Berezovsky). Either way the exploitation continues. Then we have the nationalist groups who generally do nothing of value and hate every ethnicity around them.
Well the problem is I’m not lying. You picked one of the WORST sources when you posted infoukes. I am of Western Ukrainian heritage myself and I have dealt with these people in the past. Press them a little and they will invent all sorts of fantastic stories.
The fact that they would mention the “deniers” while still using the proven fake photographs is insulting to one’s intelligence.
Actually when you look at the statistical facts you would find that the Ukrainian population was overwhelming hostile to the Nazis EXCEPT in Galicia. Even there they found opposition which is why the OUN began murdering so many people in Lvov once the Nazis arrived. There is plenty of documentation on this including the reports of the OUN/Ukrainian nationalists themselves.
Once again, had you taken my advice and ACTUALLY read Douglas Tottle’s book(in PDF format), he cites many reports from the OUN leaders regarding their popularity among the population.
About 5 million Ukrainians fought for the Red Army, and several hundred thousand fought as partisans. The ethnicity with the second highest amount of HSU winners is Ukrainian.
Hmm… Douglas Tottle is Canadian and clearly not Russian. Jeff Copplan worked for the American Village Voice and is also clearly not Russian. In fact, I cannot at this moment think of ONE person who debunked the famine genocide who actually IS Russian.
Please be specific.
So Communists can never tell the truth about anything? Ernst Zundel would LOVE it if that were the case.
You keep throwing around the word liar and yet you don’t even bother to check the numerous sources I have given to you. Furthermore you don’t even have the prerequisate knowledge on this topic that you would need to show I am lying.
Maybe you should actually READ my sources for a change. The original pictures appeared before in various publications that documented the 21-22 famine. These pictures were found to have been published TEN years prior to the event.
The Ukrainian government is still in a state of turmoil right now because the “honeymoon” with Yuschenko is wearing thin. EVERY time Ukraine has been independent, it has faced disaster. It is one of the most corrupt nations in the world today and the standard of living is generally far below Russia or Belarus.
The Ukrainians NEVER had it better than under Soviet rule WE contributed to the Soviet Union, WE fought to defend the Soviet Union just as we did the empire. ALL statistics related to standards of living prove this fact.
you bad look at he mirror. You are the tupical jews. 
BTW, your pal Chevan incompetently started a thread using pictures to imply that all Americans are predisposed to Nazism, without providing any other evidence.
Listen , mudak , except you nobody told " that all Americans are predisposed to Nazism" in that thread about NSM.
He is a fucking asshole, and should be banned as a troll in my opinion, because he has started three fights now based only on a hypercritical analysis of Western Ally policies,
This is famouse American “freedom of speech” .
Your oppinion put in ass
Hupercritical analisys … don’t worry soon i could prepeare some new thread with hypercritical analysis of USA policies.
I am talking about the fact that you completely ignore the statements by Chevan!
Not at all, they can both be considered offensive. So it is you that is selective. I told Chevan how the holocaust revisionists really work and why one should not listen to their claims. I also provided sources that debunk the revisionist claims.
Then you launch into a folly of historical apologism of your own, by claiming the Ukrainians that opposed Stalin where just fascist agents. And that a famine that was verified by historians as fact, but was covered up by Stalinists, is just another fascist conspiracy.
That’s his problem, not mine.
Then stay out of the fight threads, and stop crying foul the minute someone holds your culture to the same standard members of your culture start spouting off about others.
You made several posts in this thread that are patently silly, like implying that I turned into a Russian-bashing thread when in the second post is where the fight started.
Well to be honest I haven’t been here long enough to see the general character of the board but I notice a LOT of anti-Soviet and actually anti-Russian propaganda repeatedly posted here. That’s not to say that it’s all untrue, but one should always remember that if you are America, British, or even Polish, your governments aided and allied with that “evil empire” so you share complicity as well.
It’s not anti-Russian. And I think people have the right to be dubious of Stalinism. In fact, I have nothing but admiration for the courage and sacrifice of the Russian people overall. I in fact worked with a Russian girl that was very smart and attractive, and had she not been married would gladly have asked her out. I’ve used Russian products (Stoli vodka, and Getty & Lukos gasoline, and would much like to buy an AK-47:) ). I think you’ll find more of admiration here for the Russian people and their genius for engineering things like T-34s and the like than condemnation of them as inherently evil. Defeating Hitler was mostly Russias glory, no one is denying that. But in the end, Stalin was a cunt.
Right, which wasn’t proven. What WAS proven was the US meddling in the form of funding for the “revolution” by Soros and the US government.
The Famine happened, and it was exacerbated by deliberate inaction of Soviet authorities. Look man, I don’t deny that the U.S.A. has done some shit things and has a past of slavery, unfair economic manipulations, genocide against the Native Americans and the like. So I don’t deny unfavorable historical realities simply because I am an American patriot that happens to detest certain ignominious aspects of his history.
And I recall the Soviet gov’t was funding the CPUSA and committing blatant acts of espionage during the Cold War. So the U.S. policies were no worse.
Do you remember how pissed everyone was when they found the DNC was receiving money from the Chinese(1996)? Apparently it’s ok for the US to do the same thing to other countries though.
That’s a partisan myth actually. No, actually the DNC received money from a Chinese-American donor that had ties to Chinese Intelligence. They also gave to the GOP as well. And there was no collusion or special interests found to have been the result. There was no meddling in the election as a result, it was more a Chinese test to see if they could manipulate American democracy.
Well you haven’t heard my own criticism on the Russian government. I hate Putin, Yuschenko, Yanukovich, and all these bastards. In Eastern Europe there’s generally two choices- vote for your country to be run by local criminals(Putin) or foreign ones(Soros, Berezovsky). Either way the exploitation continues. Then we have the nationalist groups who generally do nothing of value and hate every ethnicity around them.
Perhaps we can find common ground since I think my gov’t is currently run by bastards as well.
Well the problem is I’m not lying. You picked one of the WORST sources when you posted infoukes. I am of Western Ukrainian heritage myself and I have dealt with these people in the past. Press them a little and they will invent all sorts of fantastic stories.
The fact that they would mention the “deniers” while still using the proven fake photographs is insulting to one’s intelligence.
Perhaps. I know there are some people with nefarious pasts in these movements. But for the record, I learned of the Ukrainian famine episode not that site, but very long ago from a PBS special, an American TV network not exactly thought of as the bastion of the right wing or fascism.
You know I really hate to do this but let me be blunt: I KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS SUBJECT THAN YOU. Ok? Had you bothered to check my sources and actually LOOK at the breakdown of how many Ukrainians supported which side and who supported the Fascist you would have found that I am right. The OUN was openly pro-Nazi even up until the 80s.
Wrong.
In case you didn’t notice, English isn’t his native language.
I would define “patently silly” as “discussing historical issues about which you have very little knowledge, e.g. Ukrainian history.”
You list accomplishments of the Russian people and then pretend that Stalin had nothing to do with that. Just because you can rattle off about T-34s and AK-47s doesn’t convince me that you have the proper understanding of Russian history to know WHY Stalin(who of course was not Russian himself) needed to do the things he did(the actual things, not the made-up bullshit).
Christ, you don’t even know what the FAMINE claim is! The claim is that the famine happened BECAUSE of the deliberate ACTION of the state by confiscating grain. That being said, it is proven by tons of documents and eyewitnesses from various foreign countries that this was not the case. Had you READ some of my sources you would know why some people starved to death. It should also be noted that droughts were recorded for that season in several areas of the Ukraine as well as in the Volga region- in both places some people also starved.
The fact is that any propagandist could apply the methods used by anti-Stalin demagogues to make it appear that America was some kind of horrible genocidal nation. In fact, one could turn Abraham Lincoln into a Stalin. The fact is that to do this to either country or regime is just plain stupid.
They cut off funding in the 60s. The CPUSA was basically a waste by then, and it’s a total joke right now.
Of course, but remember the outrage the implication caused? And rightfully so. There is no such thing as democracy if a party represents the interests of a foreign country.
Again, you should check some of my sources and you will see why it appeared on PBS. The Ukrainain emigre groups were trying to reinvent themselves at the same time when Reagan was turning things up a notch against the Soviet Union. Basically these two factions found each other. The emigre organizations started to change their political line- trying to burry past anti-Semitic, pro-Hitler rants. It’s really shameful today when you see books like The Galician Division by Michael Logusz that try to tell you that the Ukrainians joining the SS really wanted liberal democracy and that the UPA fought against the Nazis.
If you want a basic summary, read Jeff Copplan’s Village Voice article(it addresses the PBS special). For more detail get the PDF of Tottle’s book. The collectivisation is dealt with in detail in a book called Another View of Stalin by Ludo Martens(Worker’s Party of Belgium). Of course he is an open Communist but if you can accept the fact that his book is heavily sourced and goes out of its way to use non and even anti-Communist references I recommend you read it.
The reason why so much anti-Stalin propaganda sticks is because opportunists within the Soviet Union had an interest in promoting it as well. In other words, it seems as though it comes from both sides of the spectrum.
[
One link does not make a history. You are correct that I haven’t read Tottle yet, because I do not have time since I’ve been busy busting Holocaust denier myths, and I have other work assignments. But the overall gist I’ve gotten from just about any source is that there was a certain tolerance and passivity, if not outright support, for the initial Nazi occupation. Until the people learned that the Ukraine was to be little more than a German farming community with the Ukrainians used as slave laborers, the ones that didn’t starve to death first that is.
I’m pretty sure I can find many sources which would agree with this assessment. And I’ve never denied that many Ukrainians fought the Nazis, just that they were hesitant to do so initially as I think anybody living under Stalin would be.
Hmm… Douglas Tottle is Canadian and clearly not Russian. Jeff Copplan worked for the American Village Voice and is also clearly not Russian. In fact, I cannot at this moment think of ONE person who debunked the famine genocide who actually IS Russian.
I’ll check it out. But the Village Voice is not known as the bastion of great journalism in America. It tends to be regarded as an alternative-leftist publication with some kooky rightists thrown in for good measure.
Please be specific.
That the anti-Russian/Soviet Ukrainian resistance was nothing more than the extension of pro-Fascist agents. There definitely WAS an element of domination and suppression under Stalin? I would love to hear an educated Ukrainians view on this?
And it seems that many of East European origin here do not agree with your rosy post-War assessments of Soviet controlled satellite gov’ts., which they patently installed on the people thwarted any democratic ambitions.
So Communists can never tell the truth about anything? Ernst Zundel would LOVE it if that were the case.
I didn’t say that. I use the term “Stalinist.” I think there are European Marxist-Humanists that can make some good cases.
You keep throwing around the word liar and yet you don’t even bother to check the numerous sources I have given to you. Furthermore you don’t even have the prerequisate knowledge on this topic that you would need to show I am lying.
Maybe you should actually READ my sources for a change. The original pictures appeared before in various publications that documented the 21-22 famine. These pictures were found to have been published TEN years prior to the event.
I will when I have time. And your knowledge of all things Ukrainian does not belay a certain pro-Russian bias. You’ll excuse me if I question your right to speak for Ukrainians, unless you are Ukrainian by birth as you sort of imply here? In which case, I would be forced to suspect that you would be of Russian ethnicity.
But even if the pictures are a fraud, there wasn’t exactly a free press under Stalin critically evaluating his policies in the Ukraine, was there? In fact, I’ve seen a documentary in which unwittingly befuddled American “idiots” seeking financial gain where given a “tour of the Ukraine” in which they only saw nice sights of prearranged gov’t propaganda, while they were kept away from areas of utter starvation and misery in order to prove a point written directly from an Orwellian novel.
The Ukrainian government is still in a state of turmoil right now because the “honeymoon” with Yuschenko is wearing thin. EVERY time Ukraine has been independent, it has faced disaster. It is one of the most corrupt nations in the world today and the standard of living is generally far below Russia or Belarus.
Hmmmm…No doubt a completely unbiased assessment.
The Ukrainians NEVER had it better than under Soviet rule WE contributed to the Soviet Union, WE fought to defend the Soviet Union just as we did the empire. ALL statistics related to standards of living prove this fact.
The Ukrainians demanding autonomy were also taken out in the middle of the night and shot by Soviet authorities, as well as having had other methods of state terror used against them. The Stalinist also “planted” Russians (a policy of competent imperialists everywhere) in the Ukraine and attempted to expunge the identity of Ukrainian culture. There can be no argument of these facts despite your rosy , dewy assessment of Ukrainians needing Russians to rule them, and any links you provide.
I suspect many Ukrainians would view this assessment as somewhat disparaging.
Look, I respect you as intelligent (if biased) Jasa, and you’ve made some excellent knowledgeable posts at this site, but I wish we could move on from this.
My quarrel is not with you, it’s with the idiot who is for all practical purposes calling me a “hook-nosed, money lending” Jew
I have offered you several links. In fact, the link you provided also shows you some of these links and strangely does not even attempt to debunk them. But nobody ever accused Galician nationalists of being too intelligent I suppose.
The overwhelming majority of people in Ukraine were anti-Nazi. The reason why Tottle’s work is so important is because aside from the raw statistics on the army and partisan movement, there is also documentation from the Ukranian nationalists themselves including letters that bemoan the hostility of the Ukrainian population. These people expected to be hailed as heroes, but were seen as traitors. Tottle’s book contains some correspondence within the OUN on this.
Like I said, the raw statistics and the nationalists’ own correspondance shows the opposite. Remember that even in Lviv, where the Nazis were “welcomed”, those that did the “welcoming” immediately began slaughtering all the opposition in the city(pro-Communists, Muscovites, Poles, Jews, intellectuals). About 9,000 people were brutally murdered by the OUN in Lviv.
Still, the author has no love for Stalin. Plus it’s not like this was hard to debunk. We’re talking about an allegation of genocide that rests on literally a handful of photographs(taken ten years earlier), a fraudulent eyewitness(Thomas Walker, who never even visited Ukraine), and some Ukrainian nationalist leaders.
Any suppression that existed in Ukraine existed all throughout the country at the time. The fact is that one class is going to suppress the other. Today the Bourgeoisie regained control in Russia and Ukraine and they work extra hard to suppress the majority of people. If there is another revolution these thugs need to be wiped out with FAR more cruelty than that which was occasionally displayed by the Soviet government.
It is important to remember however, that the modern former Soviet populace(BECAUSE of Communism), is far more educated and is actually literate now- meaning that a future revolution will not face the same difficulties that the last one did.
Heh heh…you don’t understand Eastern Europe. At least you came into what is essentially a Polish-Russian conflict and not a clusterf$^k like Former Yugoslavia.
There is no such thing as “Stalinism”. There is correct Marxism-Leninism that Stalin was applying and then there are various forms of bullshit like Trotskyism or the joke that existed in the late Soviet Union, which allowed the misery and suffering we see today throughout Eastern Europe. It should be noted that even in some countries that have benefitted from foreign investment, life for ordinary people has not really improved that much.
I think that I should question your right to speak for Ukrainians based on your previous statements about the elections. If we are talking about Galicians, I’ll tell you right now that I DON’T speak for them. However, Galician nationalists NEVER speak for the majority of Ukrainians. They just have louder voices.
Actually there are documents and public statements by Stalin talking about the problems in the civil insurrection in the countryside as well as with the collectivisation process. Stalin made numerous attempts to reign in the excesses that were being committed by corrupt party elements in the countryside, but there was little that could be done because the party had always been weak in that part of society. That is not to say that they didn’t manage to correct many wrongs and punish the wrongdoers.
As for eyewitnesses, the main objective eyewitness proposed in favor of the famine was Thomas Walker, who in fact was found never to have been in Ukraine. Against the famine are several journalists from a number of Western countries, all of whom the nationalists accuse of being Communists or “duped”.
That’s the general claim, but once one knows the situation of the Soviet government at the time it becomes laughable that they would be able to pull that off. Honestly, how does one visit a country where millions of people are starving to death and not see any of this going on?
I have read many publications by Americans who visited early Soviet russia and Ukraine and they frequently and openly talked about problems they saw. Certainly no Potemkin villages.
Assumption that the opposite side is unbiased.
That tends to happen to violent separatists in every nation. This happened in the United States during something called the Civil War.
As the industrialization went on, many populations shifted. The problem with this statement is that it implies some very significant cultural/ethnic difference between Muscovite Russians and Ukrainians. Theoretically both groups are “Russian”. Linguistic and cultural differences are mostly the product of foreign influence, in the case of Ukraine it came from Poland.
Who said Ukrainians “need Russians to rule” them? The country called Rossiya is every bit a part of Ukraine as Ukraine is part of Rus.
Till they can produce statistics claiming otherwise I am not concerned.
Very well, but let me just say that I have often seen the “bias” accusation aimed at anything that defends socialism while it is implied that liberal democratic societies or anything anti-Communist isn’t biased.
I once had a good friend back in the states who had no problem with Holocaust-revisionism and other pro-Axis, pro-Fascist ideals. But when I began to reevaluate my knowledge of socialist history and Stalin, he suddenly accused me of “bias”.
I should point out that most of my “defense” of Stalin’s history actually was the result of years I spent as an activist repeating anti-Stalin, anti-Communist claims, including the famine genocide(that is why I am already famliar with Infoukes). I do however have a great concern for objectivity and over time I began to have doubts about the accuracy of the claims I was repeating. It seemed like I could never find concrete proof of this or that massacre. Still I thought that those who denied things like the famine or the millions killed in the Great Purge had to have been crazy.
I struggled with the problem of proof for about two years until I finally decided to read what the other side said- and then it became clear why I could never find that concrete evidence I was searching for. It just doesn’t exist.
You know more about this subject coming from a particular angle. Background knowledge about a subject, and seeking truth are clearly two different things.
Wrong.
In case you didn’t notice, English isn’t his native language.
Well, I did get something about that I’m a lousy Jew. That came through his Alt-Vista translator well enough.
I would define “patently silly” as “discussing historical issues about which you have very little knowledge, e.g. Ukrainian history.”
Yes, but what knowledge I do have is pretty clearly contradicted by your selective scholarship. I’ll give you that you’re knowledgeable and intelligent, but when you say things tantamount too “the Ukrainians never had it so good as when they were under Stalin!” you really undercut that. I’d say that pretty much makes you a laughing stock actually.
I’m sorry if I don’t buy your arguments which are admittedly those of a biased ideologue that is willing to alter facts in order to propagate his ideology, as a communist. But Freedom is (not) slavery, and War is (not) peace! Isn’t the end justified by the means or something like that?
You list accomplishments of the Russian people and then pretend that Stalin had nothing to do with that.
Well, he did execute the Red Army high command, and conduct the War with unparalled incompetence for the first six months or so. In the end, the Russian people chose the Georgian devil that they knew over the German fascist one that was worse.
Just because you can rattle off about T-34s and AK-47s doesn’t convince me that you have the proper understanding of Russian history to know WHY Stalin(who of course was not Russian himself) needed to do the things he did(the actual things, not the made-up bullshit).
I never claimed to be a Russian scholar, as you obviously have little background knowledge regarding American history. Especially when you say things like:
The fact is that any propagandist could apply the methods used by anti-Stalin demagogues to make it appear that America was some kind of horrible genocidal nation. In fact, one could turn Abraham Lincoln into a Stalin. The fact is that to do this to either country or regime is just plain stupid.
That is utterly one of the most absurd statements I’ve ever seen on the interweb. Lincoln was democratically elected, and then reelected. Yes, some Southerners would view him as a “tyrant.” But that’s just sour grapes really! Some would also take a conspiratorial view that Lincoln was assassinated by his own cabinet because he was planning on going easy on the South during reconstruction whereas the “Radical Republicans” wanted to punish them, hardly Stalin-rific!
You’re just drowning in your own logical fallacies of “Animal Farm” pig-shit now. Please feel free to liken Lincoln to Joe Stalin. I’d really enjoy that actually. :lol:
Christ, you don’t even know what the FAMINE claim is! The claim is that the famine happened BECAUSE of the deliberate ACTION of the state by confiscating grain. That being said, it is proven by tons of documents and eyewitnesses from various foreign countries that this was not the case. Had you READ some of my sources you would know why some people starved to death. It should also be noted that droughts were recorded for that season in several areas of the Ukraine as well as in the Volga region- in both places some people also starved.
You mean had I read your selective sources which pretty much say only what you want rather than the unbiased histories which deplore both Stalinism and Nazism, I’ll choose the latter.
But this thread isn’t about the Ukrainian famine. It’s about some silly assholes attempt to belittle the Holocaust because he’s apparently offended that the Jews get the spotlight in all the massacres and atrocities or something. That’s pretty fucking childish, as are his recent posts.
I’ll tell you what, I’ll start a Ukrainian famine thread, and I’m sure I can learn much! We’ll both share in the delight as you reveal that benevolent, fearless Joseph “Man of Steel! Hu-rumpH!” Stalin single handedly saved Ukrainian children from Western capitalists, and that they “never had it so good” and was a better leader in WWII than just about any other Russian could have been, that didn’t share his penchant for paranoid delusions. Personally, I always liked Marshall Zhukov. And even that wacky Khrushchev had a fun sense of humor!
And I’ll show you that you’re selectively grabbing at resources and building a very biased, prosecutorial case of shit right out of the Orwellian stalls of “Animal Farm.”
They cut off funding in the 60s. The CPUSA was basically a waste by then, and it’s a total joke right now.
It mostly always was a joke. They made the unCommunistic mistake of treating their workers like shit (by not giving basic health benefits) which led a disgruntled communist to become an invaluable FBI-informant.
The funding con’td to the 70’s I believe, and became a scandal which undid whatever credibility they had on workers rights and in the labor movement.
Of course, but remember the outrage the implication caused? And rightfully so. There is no such thing as democracy if a party represents the interests of a foreign country.
If you read my post again, you see that there were no actual “interests represented.” Tell what interests the Chinese gained by this?
Go ahead, list them!
It was merely an issue that was deliberately misreported by right wing media pols in some bizarre effort to show that Clinton was a “commie sympathizer,” even though he displayed American military and naval power to China on many occasions. You seem to have much in common with them as far as truth being the first victim in your boundless ideological struggle.
You’ll excuse me if I cry that you’re “ignorant” of this and don’t know what you’re talking about.
Again, you should check some of my sources and you will see why it appeared on PBS. The Ukrainain emigre groups were trying to reinvent themselves at the same time when Reagan was turning things up a notch against the Soviet Union. Basically these two factions found each other. The emigre organizations started to change their political line- trying to burry past anti-Semitic, pro-Hitler rants. It’s really shameful today when you see books like The Galician Division by Michael Logusz that try to tell you that the Ukrainians joining the SS really wanted liberal democracy and that the UPA fought against the Nazis.
Again, I will! Maybe I’ll even find a few anti-Stalinist Ukrainian nationalists that can’t be easily dismissed at pro-Nazis, yes? Or perhaps some were victims of a KGB smear campaign.
BTW, you never addressed Kovalski’s point regarding the declassified NKVD files regarding this incident other than an awkward baseball terminology that I take for an outright denial without presenting any factual case to refute his claim. C’mon, you can do better than that! Surely you know more about this than the NKVD of the 1930s!
If you want a basic summary, read Jeff Copplan’s Village Voice article(it addresses the PBS special). For more detail get the PDF of Tottle’s book. The collectivisation is dealt with in detail in a book called Another View of Stalin by Ludo Martens(Worker’s Party of Belgium). Of course he is an open Communist but if you can accept the fact that his book is heavily sourced and goes out of its way to use non and even anti-Communist references I recommend you read it.
I’ll do that (Tottle at least), and perhaps you can read George Orwell’s “1984” and “Animal Farm,” from a British Socialist that fought fascism side-by-side with Trotskyist, and later Stalinist, Russians in the Spanish Civil War. He quit after the Trotskyists were hunted down or “disappeared.”
The reason why so much anti-Stalin propaganda sticks is because opportunists within the Soviet Union had an interest in promoting it as well. In other words, it seems as though it comes from both sides of the spectrum.
Ooof! Sorry, but the Gulags are a bit tough to take! I wonder if Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn was also a fascist agent too? Just like that ice-pick in Trotsky’s skull! Ouch!
:lol:
Yeah, I can tell you were a real doozy of an anti-Stalin crusader!
About the declassified NKVD files please? Or are you just ignoring that?
By the way, you sound exactly like the David Irving of the extreme left.
Hmmmmmmmm…:shock:
K this will be the only warning stop with the harsh and insulting language towards each other. Has no place here. Debate in an adult manner.
Oh and Jasa, which one of the “sources” you’ve provided states that the Ukrainian Famine of 1932-33 was a product of “the Nazis?” I’d really like to see that since Hitler did not fully take power until 1933, or is that also an inconvenient statement you’d like to ignore and forget also?
BTW guys, I was wondering if we could find a Turkish-nationalist, so he could intern deny that the Armenian Genocide actually took place, or inform us that indeed it was all some British conspiracy.
That way we’d have our revisionist-genocide history bases covered!
Pardon my language in this thread. But few things draw my ire like intellectual laziness spawning mindless apologism and ignorance.