Ukraine Nazi Massacre Remembered

Douglas Tottle: The David Irving of the Ukraine Genocide Part II-

In 1941, Yale University Press published a translation of Michael Hrushevsky’s “History of Ukraine.” As the Ukrainian text stopped in 1905, the editor, Professor O.J. Frederiksen of Miami University (Ohio), decided to update it. Two chapters were added. One, entitled “Ukrainian Independence”, covered the period 1914-1918 and was based on Hrushevsky’s other writings. The second chapter, “Recent Ukraine”, brought the events up to 1940; it was written by the editor from notes provided by Dr. Luke Myshuha and had nothing to do with Hrushevsky.

In the Frederiksen/Myshuha chapter references to the 1932-33 famine are very skimpy, but there are two passages (p.566) that have some bearing on the subject. Skrypnyk, the Commissar of Education in Soviet Ukraine, is reported as having “committed suicide in 1933 in protest against Soviet policies there, and in particular against the export of foodstuffs”. It is also claimed that after a year of drought and chaotic agricultural conditions, “during the winter of 1932-33 a great famine, like that of 1921-22, swept across Soviet Ukraine, again costing the lives of several million men, women and children.” (My emphasis - R.S.) In the next paragraph the reader learns that “Hrushevsky was arrested in 1930 and transferred from Kiev to a town near Moscow; he died on November 26, 1934, at Kislovodsk, in the northern Caucasus.”

Cont’d

Douglas Tottle: The David Irving of the Ukraine Genocide Part III-

Now let us see how Tottle reconstructs these references:

"However, "A History of Ukraine" by Mikhail (sic) Hrushevsky - described by the Nationalists themselves as 'Ukraine's leading historian' - states: 'Again a year of drought coincided with chaotic agricultural conditions; and during the winter of 1932-33 a great famine, like that of 1921-1922, swept across Soviet Ukraine...' Indeed, nowhere does History of Ukraine claim a deliberate, man-made famine against Ukrainians and more space is actually devoted to the famine of 1921-22." (p.91)

Tottle then adds laconically that Hrushevsky’s was published posthumously in 1941 and that it was updated to 1940 based on notes by Dr. Luke Myshuha. Tottle does not deem it necessary to mention the work of Professor Frederiksen, or to specify when and where Hrushevsky died, although these facts are essential to appreciate the reference to the famine. He does, however, go out of his way to point out that Myshuha was “editor-in-chief of Svoboda”, and that he had “visited Berlin in 1939, speaking over Nazi radio in Ukrainian,” (p. 92) information quite irrelevant to the analysis of the famine, but necessary to make the perfidious famine-Nazi link which I shall discuss further on.

Here again we have a mixture of irrelevant truths, misleading half-truths, and lies. The comments by Myshuha/Frederiksen on the famine are deformed (damaging reference to Skrypnyk’s suicide to protest the export of grain while several million starved is left out), and even though Tottle does not actually attribute them to Hrushevsky, he words his statement in such a way as to create that impression. Whether Szczesny was privy to Tottle’s ruse or was duped by the insinuation, the result is the same; a lie about Hrushevsky’s alleged denial of the famine-genocide.

Third, a few words are in order on the subliminal Nazification of the Ukrainian famine-genocide. If there is one common denominator to all the famine-genocide denial literature, it is the effort to tie the Ukrainian famine to the Nazis and sandwich between them that part of the Ukrainian diaspora which defends the right of the Ukrainian nation to exist as a sovereign state. Genocide deniers would be happiest if they could blame the famine on the Nazis and the “Ukrainian collaborators” as Stalin pinned Katyn on the Germans. But since this can not be done, they try the next best thing: link with Nazis those who speak out about the famine (including famine survivors and descendants of famine victims).

On the cover of Tottle’s book one can see a photograph of a woman with an undernourished child, and looming over the photograph a hand with a paintbrush. The brush is about to be dipped into oilpaint profusely pouring out of a tube marked with a swastika. What a disgusting spectacle, and yet how descriptive of the author and the book! Isn’t Tottle getting ready to apply Nazi colours to the famine victims?

When one checks the book’s table of contents one notices that only one chapter is classified as “famine”, the other nine deal with “fraud” and “Fascism”. In fact, at least ten times as much space is devoted to the task of making the famine-Fascism connection as is given to the study of the famine. Unabashed, the author admits that he “does not attempt to study the famine in any detailed way”. (p.1) He is more interested in the “Nazi and fascist connections” and the “coverups of wartime collaboration” (p.3). Both topics, even if they had been objectively treated, are completely irrelevant to the study of the famine and can neither prove nor disprove the existence of the famine or define the nature of the tragedy. (Many of Tottle’s attacks on the various segments of the Ukrainian diaspora constitute hate literature and should be dealt with in our courts of law.)

The attempt to hush up serious examination and legitimate condemnation of the famine-genocide, or to dismiss it as Nazi-related propaganda, makes the writings of Tottle and the other famine-genocide deniers particularly repugnant. They have the impudence to desecrate the memory of millions of innocent people deliberately starved to death by criminals who have never even been punished for their diabolical act. Perhaps it was people like the famine-genocide deniers that Oleksandr Dovzhenko had in mind when he made this entry in his diary written on the German front on May 4, 1942:

"If all the heroism of the sons of Ukraine in the Fatherland war, all the sacrifices and suffering of (its) people, and all (their) victorious energy after the war, cunning hands and pens of certain clever fellows throw into a common...pot, and on account of Ukrainians, these same hands thrust artificially created Hitlerite Petliurivshchyna and anti-Semitism with all the consequences of slaughter-houses, it would be better for me to die and no longer witness human baseness, bottomless hate, and fathomless eternal lies which entangle us. (Dnipro, 1988, No.10, p.89)

In his review of Tottle’s book Szczesny writes:

"The theory of the big lie is that the bigger the lie and the more often it is repeated, the more it will be believed." (p.22) Szczesny should have added that in order to render their own lie more credible, the hoaxsters accuse their opponents of the deception they themselves practice, while presenting their own fabrication as a corrective to their opponents' alleged lie. Need we be reminded that the real hoax is not the Holocaust but what Butz has to say about it and the great fraud is not the famine-genocide but Tottle's treatment of it?

Documents on the famine published recently in the West (M. Carynnyk, et al, “The Foreign Office and the Famine,” Kingston, Ont., 1988, and others), and in the Soviet press (isn’t it about time that the ‘UC’ reprinted some of them?) leave no room for doubt that the famine in Ukraine was man-made. As Yuri Shcherbak, the author of a novel on Chornobyl states, “the famine of 1932-33 was in no way a natural disaster. There was no drought, no hurricane as its origin… The Ukrainian harvest of 1932 while not a record one was totally adequate. Yet there was an unusual famine. From the beginning to the end it was organized from the top… Peasants, packed on train rooftops, tried to flee the famished regions. But on the border between Russia and Ukraine… units of border guards were stationed…” (Sobesednik, Moscow, 1988, No.49)

Is it legitimate to call this famine genocide?

Ten years ago few people outside the Ukrainian diaspora would have ventured such an opinion: in the West because of what was thought to be a lack of reliable evidence (diplomatic archives were closed and testimony from “refugees” was viewed with suspicion), and in the Soviet Union because the very subject was taboo. All this has radically changed in the last few years.

Taking advantage of glasnost, Ukrainians began to speak openly about the crime of the “33rd”, calling it “man-made famine”, “artificial famine”, “extermination by starvation (holodomor). Although they use the more familiar traditional expressions, in their minds these terms are synonymous with genocide”. What else is the deliberate starvation of millions of people, if not genocide? Occasionally, one even comes across the words “holocaust” and “genocide” as when Wasyl Pakharenko answered those who do not recognize the specificity of the Ukrainian famine. “The uniqueness of our (Ukrainian) tragedy lies in this that in Ukraine, the social-class genocide coincided with the cultural-national (genocide).” (Molod’ Cherkashchyny, Cherkassy, 1988, No.30)

The notion that the famine was genocide is also gaining acceptance in the West. Michael R. Marrus, professor of at the University of Toronto, and the author of “The Holocaust in History,” in his forward to The Foreign Office and the Famine (cited above), comes to the conclusion that the evidence presented by the British documents suggests that there was a genocidal attack upon Ukrainians. Leo Kuper, professor emeritus at the UCLA and author of Genocide, a pioneer work on the subject, writes in his latest work “The Prevention of Genocide” about the “many millions who died in the Soviet manmade (sic) famine of 1932-33”. Kuper accepts the argument that “this artificially induced famine was in fact an act of genocide, designed…to undermine the social basis of a Ukrainian national renaissance.” (p.50)

In the light of all the evidence we now possess on the famine, how bleak and ignoble appear the statements of genocide deniers of the Stalin era (unscrupulous journalists like Walter Duranty of the New York Times, credulous and dishonest intellectuals like the British writer Bernard Shaw, the French politician Edouard Herriot). It took fifty years to debunk their big lie; how long will it take the defenders of truth to dispose of the big lie promoted by Tottle and his supporters? The challenge is before the Ukrainian community. Will The Ukrainian Canadian, for one, have the courage to take it up and make the last stand of the famine-genocide deniers a short one?

THE LAST STAND OF THE UKRAINIAN FAMINE-GENOCIDE
By Dr. Roman Serbyn, Professor of Russian and East European History University of Quebec, Montreal, Canada
The Ukrainian Canadian magazine, February, 1989
FOR PERSONAL AND ACADEMIC USE ONLY

http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/serbyn4.htm

Wow, don’t see a lot of proof there. Just a lot of attacking and bitching about the evident Nazi-associations. What he chooses is interesting though- for example, he mentions the COVER of Tottle’s book. Strange, why didn’t he cite any of the excerpts Tottle quoted from Ukrainan nationalist publications dating from the time of writing back to pre-revolutionary times? Simple, because the Ukrainian nationalists OWN words convict them as pro-Fascist. Much better to pick out irrelevent details and pretend that he bases his case on that.

Once again they begin smearing journalists like Walter Duranty. The author gives only a few names but if one looks at Tottle’s book he names far more eyewitnesses that directly contradicted those claims many years ago. In the mind of faminologists, ALL these people, of differing nationalities and political ideologies(some of them well-known anti-Communists in their time), are lying “dupes”.

Incredibly, the author actually MENTIONS the cover photo, one of the more popular photos used to prove this event. That photo was PROVEN to have originated in a 1921-22 publication!

Swing and a miss.

The fact that you call them Communists and “hacks” just because they disagree with your viewpoint shows your own bias.

In case you weren’t aware the government in Ukraine AND Russia are full of liars.

More Conquestesque nonsense. WHAT declassified NKVD documents? Everyone thinks they can “prove” this or that by waving something allegedly “declassified by the NKVD”.

He supposed to write a book too? He can’t discount the entire book in a single essay. BTW, in that “bitching” did you note how he exposed Tottle as a liar-by-ommission?

Once again they begin smearing journalists like Walter Duranty. The author gives only a few names but if one looks at Tottle’s book he names far more eyewitnesses that directly contradicted those claims many years ago. In the mind of faminologists, ALL these people, of differing nationalities and political ideologies(some of them well-known anti-Communists in their time), are lying “dupes”.

Tottle smears American Academics, does he not? Oh how quint! --still continuing the “everybody who discusses the Ukrainian famine is a secret fascist” myth?

Incredibly, the author actually MENTIONS the cover photo, one of the more popular photos used to prove this event. That photo was PROVEN to have originated in a 1921-22 publication!

LMFAO!! He owns Tottle and his asserstion that the photos somehow represent the whole of the evidence of the Soviet-Holocaust. Tottle is in fact engaged in revisionist cherry-picking.

Swing and a miss.

LOL The last time you said that, you failed to specify WHY Kovalski had “(swung) and missed!”

About the recently declassified documents? Or are you just tantamount ot the latter-day German that denies that there was really a Holocaust?

I guess that must be your catch phrase when own3d with facts.

‘Swing and miss’ yourself:

Politics make strange bedfellows.

You call my source “shit” and cite Wikipedia as the source of that. Irony defined.

Resort to ad hominem when you can’t refute his arugments, just like the author of the article you posted.

Please be specific about which parts of his work are “ramblings”. Oh wait that’s right, YOU NEVER READ HIS BOOK, even though I told you its available online for free.

HAD you actually READ THE BOOK, you wouldn’t have posted that article.

[quote=“Nickdfresh,post:77,topic:1795”]

Yet he questions serious academics at Ivy-League U.S. Universities? And ask any American conservative if they regard Harvard or Columbia Universities as the bastion of rightist fascism? They’ll laugh in your face! LMFAO!!

Right, because American conservatives aren’t BIASED!!! Once again, had you read any of the sources I provided, you would know why your comment here is stupid.

BTW: You have a problem with someone juxtaposing Tottle’s work with Harvard professors…but aren’t American conservatives doing THE EXACT SAME THING?

See you’re one of those people who thinks that by saying something it must be true.

You still haven’t provided any evidence and your articles are careful to ignore Tottle’s main arguments. For example, look at the line where it says most of Tottle’s pictures are from Russia in 1922.

NO SHIT!! THAT’S 1/4 OF TOTTLE’S BOOK! Those pictures were said to show the Ukrainian famine of 1932-33, but they are from Russia 1921-22.

LOL You’ve spent this entire flamewar “exposing” any Ukrainian nationalist in the unenviable position of deciding which evil was greater, as “fascist sympathisers.”

What was Tottle’s scholarship? Writing for a award-winning Labor ‘Journal?’

In case you weren’t aware the government in Ukraine AND Russia are full of liars.

Funny, but you seem to buy whatever the Soviet gov’t was selling.

More Conquestesque nonsense. WHAT declassified NKVD documents? Everyone thinks they can “prove” this or that by waving something allegedly “declassified by the NKVD”.

Oh, I see. There is no “proving” it is there, even though there is substantial evidence of it in Soviet archives, and everybody is a fascist or a liar except you and your little Stalin-apologist fantasies.

Well actually he didn’t expose anything.

Strawman argument. The famine story originated and was advanced by fascists. It doesn’t mean that everyone who believed it is a fascist.

Too bad Tottle never asserted that. The fact is that the famine lobby lied and Tottle caught them red-handed. OF COURSE IF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE BOOK YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT.

WHAT DOCUMENTS? What about the classified CIA documents that prove that the American government sent cute puppies to the moon to kill them!!?

See how that works yet?

Well the problem is that you’re not in a position to decide what are facts. Your lack of knowledge on Ukraine and Eastern European politics means that you are not able to judge what are unbiased and biased sources, as you already proved.

So keep talking about “owned” and assorted bullshit but so far you haven’t rebutted anything and your obvious bias is showing.

Nope. The history of the OUN proves their fascist past. If you had the prerequisite knowledge on the subject you would have known that.

The scholarship is that of the sources and references he cites, where applicable. Again, before you start criticizing a book you should READ it so that when you read someone else’s review you can determine how accurate their statements are.

Wrong. The famine-genocide was being sold by the OUN and their accomplices. By the 1980s this massive event was supposedly proved by a few accounts by people with VERY questionable pasts, a novel, and a handful of pictures that were known to have been taken in 1921-22.

Let me try this analogy on you again. Observe:

"America KILLED 7 MILLION PEOPLE IN CALIFORNIA!!! Where’s the proof?! Documents in the CIA archives!!! "

Now the proper response(after “WTF are you talking about”?), would be “WHICH documents say that?”

Genius, did you actually read the source? They said nothing negative about Tottle other than his book was “controversial,” it was just a simple bio. My sources attacking Tottle are from Canadian and U.S. academics! Can’t attack the message, so attack the messanger. That’s clearly your M.O. all along!

Are they fascists too?

Resort to ad hominem when you can’t refute his arugments, just like the author of the article you posted.

His arguments HAVE BEEN refuted, because he’s a liar bent on using selective sources as he was shown to simply ignore what didn’t fit his presupposed ideological paradigm. You have much in common!

Please be specific about which parts of his work are “ramblings”. Oh wait that’s right, YOU NEVER READ HIS BOOK, even though I told you its available online for free.

Why? Why should I read such nonsense that is so roundly dismissed? David Irving’s work is also available as Stormfront I presume, should I waste my time reading such discredited agenda-BS?

And BTW, I don’t have to disprove his ramblings, it’s been done by people far smarter and more reliable than I.

HAD you actually READ THE BOOK, you wouldn’t have posted that article.

Oh, I see. Everybody else is a liar, Tottle speaks gospel!

Right, because American conservatives aren’t BIASED!!! Once again, had you read any of the sources I provided, you would know why your comment here is stupid.

BTW: You have a problem with someone juxtaposing Tottle’s work with Harvard professors…but aren’t American conservatives doing THE EXACT SAME THING?

LMAO! Now your just shitting out of your mouth and reaching.

See you’re one of those people who thinks that by saying something it must be true.

You still haven’t provided any evidence and your articles are careful to ignore Tottle’s main arguments. For example, look at the line where it says most of Tottle’s pictures are from Russia in 1922.

Is that your sole proof that the Ukrainian genocide didn’t happen? The Photos are from, the wrong famine? :lol:

Somebody once posted a photo from WWI in a book on WWII! That must mean that WWII didn’t happen!

NO SHIT!! THAT’S 1/4 OF TOTTLE’S BOOK! Those pictures were said to show the Ukrainian famine of 1932-33, but they are from Russia 1921-22.

Then you’ve admitted that at least 1/4 of his book is faulty logical bullshit! Thanks!:slight_smile:

LOL OUN “collaborated” because of repression like the famine!!

By the way, you know more about Ukrainian history than I? I suppose the Germans know more about the history of the Holocaust too; maybe that gives them credibility to say --“it didn’t happen, not like that!”

Nice argument!

The scholarship is that of the sources and references he cites, where applicable. Again, before you start criticizing a book you should READ it so that when you read someone else’s review you can determine how accurate their statements are.

Yeah, I should read a book shown to be lies. I have too many good books to read. If I were an academic specializing, I would. But I have little time for that.

Wrong. The famine-genocide was being sold by the OUN and their accomplices. By the 1980s this massive event was supposedly proved by a few accounts by people with VERY questionable pasts, a novel, and a handful of pictures that were known to have been taken in 1921-22.

So academics at major Canadian and American Ivy League universities specializing in this don’t take self-serving assholes into account when researching and writing? Their sources were emigres that may have left before WWII! And declassified Soviet archives! It’s been confirmed!

Let me try this analogy on you again. Observe:

"America KILLED 7 MILLION PEOPLE IN CALIFORNIA!!! Where’s the proof?! Documents in the CIA archives!!! "

OMG! :lol: Where are the witnesses? Where is the scholarship?

You’re so Orweillian! How’s the air in the “Ministry of Truth?”

Now the proper response(after “WTF are you talking about”?), would be “WHICH documents say that?”

Grasping at straws is pathetic at this point…

Incredible, you accuse me of the very thing you are doing right here.

No, they are repeating information and claims originally made by Fascists.

Which claim was refuted? Once again you accuse him of doing the exact thing you have been doing throughout this whole thread. I pointed out some GLARING errors in the article and you ignore that.

You don’t have enough knowledge on the subject matter to determine what has been “so roundly dismissed”. You just want it to remain “roundly dismissed” so you aren’t going to check and see if the claims of your article are true.

Bias.

Holocaust revisionists and Neo-Nazis CONSTANTLY tell followers NOT to read books on the Holocaust and consider only their revisionist stories.

No, you decided that they were disproved because you want them to be disproven. The problem is you don’t have enough knowledge in the field, nor Eastern European politics to determine who is right.

Logical Fallacies so far:

Comparing Holocaust revisionism with Tottle’s work.

Strawman: I, nor Tottle ever said that anyone who advances this theory is necessarily a fascist or a liar.

Still don’t see any refutations.

Well that, demographics, eyewitnesses, indirect evidence…etc.

THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE CLAIMANT.

Not in the gifted class are we? Let’s take your analogy and run with it. Let’s pretend that ALL THE PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE from this “World War II” turned out to be from the first world war. Let’s pretend that population demographics show an INCREASE in the population, not a decrease. Let’s pretend we had plenty of eyewitnesses that refute it, and let’s pretend that some of the few eyewitnesses that concocted the story never even WENT to the place where this “war” took place. Well THEN that casts some doubt.

Are you actually LOSING IQ points with every post? Let’s break this down into simple baby terms so you can understand it:

ARTICLE ADMITS THAT PHOTOS ARE FROM 1921-22

ARTICLE DOESN’T MENTION HOW FAMINE ADVOCATES HAVE BEEN USING THIS HANDFUL OF PHOTOS FOR YEARS AND PUBLICLY CLAIMING THEY WERE FROM 1932-33.

ARTICLE STATES OBVIOUS WITHOUT ADMITTING THAT ADVOCATES OF THE FAMINE-GENOCIDE LIED ABOUT WHAT THE PICTURES SHOW.

ARTICLE PRETENDS THAT TOTTLE’S ARGUMENT IS BASED SOLEY ON THE PICTURES ISSUE.

Ignorance humiliates you again!! If it was the famine, WHY oh WHY did OUN also fight the Polish government and slaughter Poles? OUN’s ideas were well known at that time and if the famine caused resistance WHY OH WHY did the OUN find so little support save for in their own area of Galicia.

This statement of yours is so incredibly stupid it barely deserves response, but I’ll indulge you.

SEE your statement above? See what’s wrong with it? HAD YOU ANY KNOWLEDGE ON UKRAINIAN HISTORY, YOU WOULDN’T SAY SOMETHING SO IDIOTIC.

Because of your bias, you have scurried all over the internet looking for anything to prove the famine. You have not examined ANY of the sources refuting it. You probably didn’t even KNOW what the UPA or OUN was before one of us mentioned it. There is absolutely no way you can stand a chance here.

You don’t have the proper knowledge to determine what the lies are. What you have is an article that SAYS there are lies in the book. Yet I WHO HAVE ACTUALLY READ THE BOOK can tell you that the author of the article has DELIBERATELY LEFT OUT key facts, DISTORTED Tottle’s argument, and basically refuted nothing.

YOU would know that to if you took the time to read it.

Once again, you don’t know what you are talking about. Your bias shows because you had already decided what happened so you find sources that confirm your predetermined view.

Wow!!! Their academic work was so great but now you say emigres who “MAY have left” before WWII? Gee, WHICH emigres, WHEN did they leave? Were you aware that OUN pre-dates WWII by many years?

Confirmed by whom? Which documents? Who wrote the documents? What do they say? Have you figured out the problem yet?

Part of me thinks you actually might be stupid enough to have taken that ANALOGY LITERALLY. But I would ask your SAME QUESTIONS to those who believe in the “famine genocide”. The idea here is you can’t just say SOVIET ARCHIVES without someone calling you on it.

Wow, 1984 reference, how original.

Grasping at straws, from the guy that scrambles all over the internet looking for articles that will prove a point about a culture and people he obviously knows nothing about.

ANALOGY TIME: Would you go into a conference of medical professionals and start challenging their views on alternative medicine? After all, you could start searching the internet and show them wikipedia articles and other research by academics “proving” all sorts of nonsense.

I swear if I even suspect that you are taking another one of my ANALOGIES literally I will conspiculously label any further analogies as a further humiliation.

You don’t even have the proper knowledge on Eastern European politics to determine what objective sources are. All you do is gather up anti-Communist or Ukrainian nationalist sites and then declare that these are objective and correct when in fact you don’t have the proper education to make that determination.

My years of research and experience allow me to spot a nationalist bias a mile away when it comes to Eastern Europe, particularly Yugoslavia where the problem is most serious.

:wink: You accused me first!

No, they are repeating information and claims originally made by Fascists.

Let me paraphrase you: So (fascists) can never tell the truth?"

And fascists are far from the only source for this, and you know it!

Which claim was refuted? Once again you accuse him of doing the exact thing you have been doing throughout this whole thread. I pointed out some GLARING errors in the article and you ignore that.

LOL You’ve posted nothing of the kind! Repost them?

But first, address the declassified document comment you keep just denying…

You don’t have enough knowledge on the subject matter to determine what has been “so roundly dismissed”.

Neither do you apparently, since you believe every Soviet lie ever told. I’ll get my Ukrainian histories from Ukrainians, not from Russians that miss the good old days of the USSR.

You just want it to remain “roundly dismissed” so you aren’t going to check and see if the claims of your article are true.

Bias.

LOL You first!

Holocaust revisionists and Neo-Nazis CONSTANTLY tell followers NOT to read books on the Holocaust and consider only their revisionist stories.

That’s my point! But I’m certain they also tell them to read the proven lies of David Irving.

BTW, how do you know so much about Holocaust-Revisionism, are you in the club that Tottle has been tied too?

No, you decided that they were disproved because you want them to be disproven. The problem is you don’t have enough knowledge in the field, nor Eastern European politics to determine who is right.

And you’ve decided the Ukrainian famine was never exacerbated by official Soviet policies as a matter of political convenience, because you love the Cult-of-personality fascist!

Logical Fallacies so far:

Comparing Holocaust revisionism with Tottle’s work.

Then go write the Professor at the University in Quebec I posted, he seems to agree.

Strawman: I, nor Tottle ever said that anyone who advances this theory is necessarily a fascist or a liar.

You just told me this:

Jasa
“Nope. The history of the OUN proves their fascist past. If you had the prerequisite knowledge on the subject you would have known that…Wrong. The famine-genocide was being sold by the OUN and their accomplices. By the 1980s this massive event was supposedly proved by a few accounts by people with VERY questionable pasts, a novel, and a handful of pictures that were known to have been taken in 1921-22.”

Please keep your unsupportable assertions straight!

Still don’t see any refutations.

See attachment…

Well that, demographics, eyewitnesses, indirect evidence…etc.

THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE CLAIMANT.

And ex-NKVD files as well as official state archives.:slight_smile:

Not in the gifted class are we?

Actually, I was.:slight_smile:

Let’s take your analogy and run with it. Let’s pretend that ALL THE PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE from this “World War II” turned out to be from the first world war. Let’s pretend that population demographics show an INCREASE in the population, not a decrease. Let’s pretend we had plenty of eyewitnesses that refute it, and let’s pretend that some of the few eyewitnesses that concocted the story never even WENT to the place where this “war” took place. Well THEN that casts some doubt.

Or they “increased” in population because Stalin “planted” Russians in the Ukraine. Don’t you know the history of the Ukraine?

Are you actually LOSING IQ points with every post? Let’s break this down into simple baby terms so you can understand it:

ARTICLE ADMITS THAT PHOTOS ARE FROM 1921-22

ARTICLE DOESN’T MENTION HOW FAMINE ADVOCATES HAVE BEEN USING THIS HANDFUL OF PHOTOS FOR YEARS AND PUBLICLY CLAIMING THEY WERE FROM 1932-33.

ARTICLE STATES OBVIOUS WITHOUT ADMITTING THAT ADVOCATES OF THE FAMINE-GENOCIDE LIED ABOUT WHAT THE PICTURES SHOW.

ARTICLE PRETENDS THAT TOTTLE’S ARGUMENT IS BASED SOLEY ON THE PICTURES ISSUE.

Oh, now you’re just losing your cool and shouting! :lol:

Here, I’ll repost the article, since you apparently just skimmed it:

"First, let us consider the photographs of the famine. Tottle latches on to them as if they were the main proof of the historicity of the tragedy and the principle argument for its classification as genocide. Tottle does this because he thinks that the photographs form a weak link in the famine-genocide story: break this link and the whole structure will collapse. Well, this is not so. The famine has a solid documentary basis (documents published in the West and in the Soviet Union) of which the photographs form a very minor (and I might add, dispensable) component. There are few photographs from the 1932-33 famine and we could hardly expect otherwise, since the totalitarian regime wanted to keep the famine hidden and took the necessary measures to ensure this.

Many more photographs have come down to us from the earlier Soviet famine of 1921-23. Some of these pictures were eventually used in connection with the second famine and this fact provided Tottle with his basic argument against the famine-genocide: photographs depicting a natural famine of 1921-22 in Russia are used as proof of man-made starvation in Ukraine in 1932-33. To make his accusation stick, Tottle resorts to a mixture of irrelevant truths, half-truths and outright lies."

1127939834cantseeshit1.jpg

Incredibly mature.

Strawman. Fascist were the ORIGIN of the story.

Clearly you didn’t READ THEM, I pointed out at least one in one of my earlier posts.

SURPRISE!!! I’M UKRAINAIN. I happen to be of Western Ukrainian descent as well. You get your information from Ukrainians, mostly Galician, who are nationalists. Because you don’t know anything about Ukraine, you don’t know that they are biased or why. You also clearly aren’t aware that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians to this day are pro-Russian. They are nowhere near as organized or well-backed as the Galician nationalists.

You never proved Tottle lied.

Logical fallacy again. Had you read any of the sources I provided you would see the difference between Holocaust denial and the famine-genocide.

This statement makes absolutely no sense. I have read the arugments on both sides, you haven’t. You lose.

Once again, you haven’t read the material he is criticizing so you can’t determine if he has distorted the argument.

You just told me this:

More ignorance. You don’t know anything about the OUN apparently. I do.

Ex-CIA files as well as official state department documents prove the American massacre of Mexicans in Arizona of 2001. See how that works?

Idiocy. Sheer idiocy.

Do you make a habit of aruging over topics you know nothing about?

No, you just have trouble reading so I have to break things down for you.

No, actually Tottle doesn’t do that. Now HOW do I know that…TIME’S UP!

I ACTUALLY READ HIS BOOK!

The weak link is the eyewitnesses and other facts refuting it, plus the lack of evidence on the part of the advocates.

That’s what they claim years AFTER Tottle busted them on the photographs.

Strange, the Third Reich was a totalitarian regime and yet we have PLENTY of photos related to that, including a photo showing the Sonderkommando burning bodies in a pit during the period when the executed exceeded the capacity of the crematoria.

Author ignores the extent to which these photos were used to prove the famine.

SPECIFIC “half-truths”, SPECIFIC “lies”?

The same reason why the Soviet Union invaded Poland and “slaughtered Poles”, and also signed a pact with Hitler, invaded Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Because it suited their ends at the time.

This statement of yours is so incredibly stupid it barely deserves response, but I’ll indulge you.

SEE your statement above? See what’s wrong with it? HAD YOU ANY KNOWLEDGE ON UKRAINIAN HISTORY, YOU WOULDN’T SAY SOMETHING SO IDIOTIC.

And if you didn’t lie, you’d have credability. And if I wasn’t correct, you wouldn’t getting angry and abusive.:slight_smile:

Because of your bias, you have scurried all over the internet looking for anything to prove the famine. You have not examined ANY of the sources refuting it. You probably didn’t even KNOW what the UPA or OUN was before one of us mentioned it. There is absolutely no way you can stand a chance here.

You keep saying “my bias.” My only “bias” is the truth. Unfortunately, it seems to be an inconvientent one that you cannot “handle.”

Amd I an insidious fascist agent too now?

You don’t have the proper knowledge to determine what the lies are. What you have is an article that SAYS there are lies in the book. Yet I WHO HAVE ACTUALLY READ THE BOOK can tell you that the author of the article has DELIBERATELY LEFT OUT key facts, DISTORTED Tottle’s argument, and basically refuted nothing.

LOL You’re proper knowledge seems to be based on lies and fraud.

You don’t take losing arguments well, do you?

YOU would know that to if you took the time to read it.

Nope. I don’t believe in conspiratorial histrical revisionism is worth my time.:slight_smile:

Once again, you don’t know what you are talking about. Your bias shows because you had already decided what happened so you find sources that confirm your predetermined view.

You keep saying that, yet I produce unbiased sources, and you produce the discredited.

Wow!!! Their academic work was so great but now you say emigres who “MAY have left” before WWII? Gee, WHICH emigres, WHEN did they leave? Were you aware that OUN pre-dates WWII by many years?

Why don’t you tell me specifically which one of their sources was a “fascist agent of OUN?”

Or, why don’t you show how declassified NKVD documents regarding the famine are false.

Confirmed by whom? Which documents? Who wrote the documents? What do they say? Have you figured out the problem yet?

By academics and scholars, of course silly!

Part of me thinks you actually might be stupid enough to have taken that ANALOGY LITERALLY. But I would ask your SAME QUESTIONS to those who believe in the “famine genocide”. The idea here is you can’t just say SOVIET ARCHIVES without someone calling you on it.

And part of me thinks that you adopt the methods of the enemies you hate so much.

Wow, 1984 reference, how original.

Yeah, you must get that a lot.:wink:

Grasping at straws, from the guy that scrambles all over the internet looking for articles that will prove a point about a culture and people he obviously knows nothing about.

You did it first! :lol:

ANALOGY TIME: Would you go into a conference of medical professionals and start challenging their views on alternative medicine? After all, you could start searching the internet and show them wikipedia articles and other research by academics “proving” all sorts of nonsense.

Isn’t that “ANALOGY” exactly what you are doing by attacking academics that pose a view of the world you’d prefer covered up? Would you go to the Ukraine and challenge the Ukrainians’ view of history as all just “fascist revisionism?” Stalin never did anything horrible? You couldn’t find anything negative? LMFAO!!

You’re a fraud.

A sycophant.

An enabler.

Go ahead, quote the Wilki article, its like two paragraphs, show where it is flawed. Did you ever have a problem with Wilki before this?

In your parade of errors I missed an important one.

Remember when you ignorantly claimed that the OUN resisted the Soviets because of the famine and I had to point out to you that the OUN also attacked the Polish and helped the Germans LONG BEFORE WWII? Well here’s another error you made because of ignorance.

The OUN’s base of support is from GALICIA. At the time of the famine Galicia was part of POLAND, not the Soviet Union. It was annexed by the Soviets in 1939. Stragely, the Ukrainians who actually LIVED in the Soviet Union while the famine was going on resisted the Nazis with the same fanaticism of other Soviet citizens.

Getting a little confused here aren’t you?

Show me ONE lie I have made.

No, you have decided what the truth is without having any prior knowledge of the subject matter. That’s why you make so many mistakes, which I actually point out.

Strawman again.

You don’t have the required knowledge to know what lies and fraud are.

If you think you are “winning” this argument you are seriously deluded. Let’s recap:

You are arguing about Ukrainan history.

You have demonstrated several times that you know nothing about Ukrainian history, culture, or the ethnicity in general- as I have had to point out.

No, you just don’t want to see your views challenged.

Once again, you don’t have the required knowledge on the subject to know what sources are unbiased and what is discreditted.

Tottle’s book is full of them.

WHICH DOCUMENTS, WRITTEN BY WHOM, RELEASED WHEN, SAYING WHAT?

You don’t have the required knowledge to determine which information is accurate.

And me thinks you should argue on subjects you know nothing about.

Many Ukrainians share my view.

Strawman.

You’re a layman.

Ad hom

Ad hom

Anybody with a minimum intelligence knows that you should NEVER quote Wikipedia as a source when arguing historical or political issues. Period.

In the future you should read up on a subject BEFORE trying to argue about it. I repeated the famine-genocide for years but when someone actually challenged me on it I actually took the time to reevaluate the evidence presented and then examine the counter-arugment.

If you continue, instead of pointing out each error you make about basic Ukrainian history and even GEOGRAPHY so that a running tally could be made at the end so that any observer will see your obvious lack of knowledge in that subject.