Christ almighty I wish these debates were live. That way it could be demonstrated to the audience that you have no knowledge of Ukraine in any respect and thus they would dismiss you almost immediately.
Like posting all in CAPS when we’re angry? Or resorting to “you’re an idiot?”
Yeah, okay.
Strawman. Fascist were the ORIGIN of the story.
So was Stalin and most of the CP at the time.
Clearly you didn’t READ THEM, I pointed out at least one in one of my earlier posts.
Oh, you pointed it out. No, you’ve yet to explain it actually.
SURPRISE!!! I’M UKRAINAIN. I happen to be of Western Ukrainian descent as well. You get your information from Ukrainians, mostly Galician, who are nationalists. Because you don’t know anything about Ukraine, you don’t know that they are biased or why. You also clearly aren’t aware that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians to this day are pro-Russian. They are nowhere near as organized or well-backed as the Galician nationalists.
Or Russian? Funny, this is the first you’ve mentioned it. And the “majority of Ukrainians” are “pro-Russian.” Oh, that’s funny! Then why don’t they just merge with Russia then? Why do Ukrainians resent the meddling of the Russian gov’t in their elections. Why was there almost a major incident over who controls the Black-Sea Fleet?
Yeah, I know it was Soviet policy to basically quash any Ukrainian identity.
Freedom is slavery…
You never proved Tottle lied.
I know, the authors I’ve posted did.
Logical fallacy again. Had you read any of the sources I provided you would see the difference between Holocaust denial and the famine-genocide.
Now you’re just copping my posts. Nice!
This statement makes absolutely no sense. I have read the arugments on both sides, you haven’t. You lose.
So have neo-Nazis reading David Irving…
You just told me this:
More ignorance. You don’t know anything about the OUN apparently. I do.
Actually, I’ve read some. I just don’t trust a Stalin-sycophant’s opinion on his opposition.
Ex-CIA files as well as official state department documents prove the American massacre of Mexicans in Arizona of 2001. See how that works?
Interesting. Do you have any evidence for this? Because I’ve posted much work of scholars. You can continue to look foolish acting as though this is all made up.
And it wouldn’t be the CIA, it would more likely be the FBI.
It’s pretty funny how you keep comparing the USSR circa-1930 with the United States, a country that is not totalitarian despite the best efforts of some, and still has a free press.
I suppose journalists were “free” in the USSR.
Idiocy. Sheer idiocy. ]
Do you make a habit of aruging over topics you know nothing about?
Do you make it a habit of covering up historical events you dislike being mentioned?
No, you just have trouble reading so I have to break things down for you.
No, actually Tottle doesn’t do that. Now HOW do I know that…TIME’S UP!
I ACTUALLY READ HIS BOOK!
Super! And you did so because it confirmed and repeated to you what you already wanted to hear. Is that supposed to pass for some sort of credibility?
The weak link is the eyewitnesses and other facts refuting it, plus the lack of evidence on the part of the advocates.
Funny, but many people at “Harvard,” Columbia, and Quebec U. seem to disagree.
That’s what they claim years AFTER Tottle busted them on the photographs.
Strange, the Third Reich was a totalitarian regime and yet we have PLENTY of photos related to that, including a photo showing the Sonderkommando burning bodies in a pit during the period when the executed exceeded the capacity of the crematoria.
They were also conquered by powers with interests in exposing them. The USSR was never conquered, and it’s files were never captured and completely declassified enmass, thought they tried mightily to repress information and cover things up. Again, it’s a “faulty logical” comparison.
Author ignores the extent to which these photos were used to prove the famine.
No. No he doesn’t. What he says is that this is essentially irrelevant with the whole of the evidence! A point that escapes you I guess. And he also states that there WERE photos from the 1932 famine.
SPECIFIC “half-truths”, SPECIFIC “lies”?
They’ve been posted in the article.
Re-read what I’ve reposted. Apparently, you have the ability to blockout what you don’t like.
You’ve done nothing but cite questionable and biased scholarship from people that were potentially communists, while decrying all counter-arguments as somehow fascist based. Yeah, that’s some knowledge, the one completely contrived as a cover-up.
If you continue, instead of pointing out each error you make about basic Ukrainian history and even GEOGRAPHY so that a running tally could be made at the end so that any observer will see your obvious lack of knowledge in that subject.
Again, any German can make the same arguments re. prior “knowledge” and pass that off as a defense of Holocaust denial too.
When I point this out, you apparently melt down in posts of rage, since it is a problem you cannot deal with.
But I do have prior knowledge of the subject matter. I do not know every specific, but I know enough. If people are ignorant of every particular of the Holocaust, does that mean it didn’t happen?
Strawman again.
You don’t have the required knowledge to know what lies and fraud are.
If you think you are “winning” this argument you are seriously deluded. Let’s recap:
You are arguing about Ukrainan history.
Yes, and you’re arguing about Soviet history, and acting as if they’re exactly same.
You have demonstrated several times that you know nothing about Ukrainian history, culture, or the ethnicity in general- as I have had to point out.
And you’ve shown yourself to be an apologist liar with ulterior motives for cover-up. Your arguments completely contravene anything I’ve read by actual Ukrainians, of sorry, I forgot you are one.
No, you just don’t want to see your views challenged.
My only view is that a famine took place in the Ukraine, and it was exacerbated by Soviet authorities. You’re the one that doesn’t want your views challenged.
Once again, you don’t have the required knowledge on the subject to know what sources are unbiased and what is discreditted.
The sources Jasa likes=GREAT! GOSPEL ACCORDING TO TOTTLE! Sources Jasa doesn’t like=FASCISTS!
:lol:
BTW, if you are so “knowledgeable” regarding the 1932 famine as a “Ukrainian,” why do you need the rantings of a Canadian author to defend your knowledge and beliefs?
Tottle’s book is full of them.
Turds?
WHICH DOCUMENTS, WRITTEN BY WHOM, RELEASED WHEN, SAYING WHAT?
The ones the academics study. I see if I can find them on the Internet later. BTW, what do you have other than the Canadian labor activists work as your thesis that it didn’t happen. or it’s all a fascist plot to discredit the ‘great’ Joe Stalin?
You don’t have the required knowledge to determine which information is accurate.
And me thinks you should argue on subjects you know nothing about.
Arguments debunked.
Many Ukrainians share my view.
Most don’t
Strawman.
Can you document that?
You’re a layman.
I’d rather be a “layman” than a fraud.
Ad hom
Ad hom
Whatever. :rolleyes:
Anybody with a minimum intelligence knows that you should NEVER quote Wikipedia as a source when arguing historical or political issues. Period.
Really? Why? Because biased people can alter the facts and make shit up? LMFAO!!! :lol:
You and Tottle should contribute!
Jasa, you’re not going to change my mind, and I am not going to change yours. So this argument is futile, frustrating on both ends, and getting more puerile as a result (admittedly from my end as well). You have your passionate beliefs, and I have mine.
You can continue arguing in this thread and respond to my admittedly smug words if you want, but this thread has veered so far off-course (from the original in which the Nazis German Einsatzgruppen were criminal killers that murdered ALL people they regarded as enemies in the Soviet Union, be they Jewish or not, including Communist officials, civic leaders, resistance fighters, etc.).
So arguing this here is pretty silly really. I’m checking out of this thread because we’re just repeating ourselves with the same arguments and sources and wasting bandwidth…
You can have the last words if you want.
No offense to anyone but this is the best post in a couple of pages. I was hoping that eventually one of you would just agree to disagree.
Nickdfresh, I have an impression that you have a thick insulation layer around your brain. Anything that contradicts with your opinion is just being ignored and that’s all.
The most strange thing, almost unbelievable, in all this that OUN got such faithful and blind defender who is partly jew.
Actually, for the fourth fucking time. I’m not Jewish, certainly not by birth. I may have some distant ancestry that I am unaware of. But couldn’t you?
BTW, I’ve read some fascist racist sites, regarding this topic; and they seem to claim that many Bolsheviks were Jews, with many of the NKVD secret police ranks being filled with them.
Prejudiced birds of a feather flock together I suppose, and the poor Jews get it from both ends! I may actually stop my anti-Israeli rants after this!
Who has the insulated skull again?
If you want, we can continue this discussion in a thread regarding the Ukrainian Famines of 1921-22 and 1932-33. Or perhaps we can objectively look at Stalinism in another thread?
now do you see , nobody believe to you about your “not-jewis origin”.
By the way , i never told that you are the jew by birth.
BTW, I’ve read some fascist racist sites, regarding this topic; and they seem to claim that many Bolsheviks were Jews, with many of the NKVD secret police ranks being filled with them.
Don’t need to read fascist sites to learn that from in 1918-1926 yy the Central Commitete Bolshevik’s Party was from 80 to 90 %jewish. This is not the mystery for everybody who are interesting of this theme. Also NKVD has a lot of jewish members till Great Purge ( and after )
… I may actually stop my anti-Israeli rants after this!
Is this threat …
Please Nick , be the human , don’t stop the anti-Israeli rants 
Oh how fascinating! “I’m not Jewish by origin” yet I’m a Jew? Is this some sort of apologist backpedaling for your putrid anti-Semitic statements? BTW, Russians like you were the first to collaborate with the Nazis…
Don’t need to read fascist sites to learn that from in 1918-1926 yy the Central Commitete Bolshevik’s Party was from 80 to 90 %jewish. This is not the mystery for everybody who are interesting of this theme. Also NKVD has a lot of jewish members till Great Purge ( and after )
Well, this may be true. But aren’t you sort of defending their policies, then insinuating I’m “a Jew” for attacking the Holocaust?
Is this threat …
No, it’s not a threat. I have a new genuine empathy for the Jews that suffer persecution at the hands of stupid people. Maybe they have a point.
Please Nick , be the human , don’t stop the anti-Israeli rants
Well, my rants were not really anti-Israeli as much as anti-Zionist. Why don’t you make some “anti-Israeli” comments about how they are how they are “hook-nosed bastards that control the media and banking?”
Why do you need me in your corner?
Sorry i’ve misunderstood you then.
And with that statement I have to advise you that you are perilously close to annoying me.
It seems that my previous guidance may have fallen on deaf ears.
Guys if we cant debate without resorting to petty name calling there is no point in having this forum.
This is not just adressed to Sneaksie, its just that this post particularly caught my attention, both sides of this argument need to re-assess I think.
I thought we had come to an end myself but no…seriously the debating is okay the insults are stopping. We have been overly nice. Next person to insult another will get an infraction point. We cant be anymore clear than we already have been.
YOU ALL ARE ON THIN ICE.
Apology accepted. No problems friend.
What is truly insulting here is that someone who has most likely never even set foot in Eastern Europe, someone who is not Ukrainian and is CLEARLY not knowledgeable about Ukrainian history, politics, or even GEOGRAPHY, is allowed to lecture Russians and Ukrainians on their own history- arrogantly claiming that this or that source is “objective” simply because it fits his own agenda.
Nick, you didn’t know what OUN or UPA was until I told you, you didn’t know about the Galicia region until I told you, you didn’t know those people were living under Polish rule at the time of the famine until I told you. No longer will I point out your errors or specific ignorance like this so as to deny you the opportunity to proclaim after the fact that you knew.
Google search and Wikipedia aren’t going to counter my years of research on Ukrainian issues, including this one which I have examined from BOTH sides. I know Ukrainians personally, I have had to deal with Galician nationalists personally(unfortunately), and I know a nationalist when I see one. There is a REASON why many of the people responsible for your sources DON’T LIVE IN UKRAINE.
What you have been doing here is pissing on the memory of over 5 million Ukrainians who fought tenaciously against the brutal Nazi invaders, and defiling the graves of many more who were slaughtered not only by the Axis invaders but their helpers in the OUN- the same type of people who pulled the triggers at Babi Yar and ran the engines at Treblinka. These same thugs tried to re-invent the history of their organization in the 80s and Cold War fanatics such as yourself have made that largely successful. However, those of us who know have seen the “paper trail” of publications they have put out over several decades clearly showing the character of their organization.
You have tried to call me a liar, you have not been able to substantiate that claim.
You have deliberately distorted my claims just as your article distorts the claims of Tottle.
You have not answered the questions I posed to you nor did you acknowledge the numerous simple factual errors you have made in your claims.
You continue to spout the logical fallacy of juxtaposing Holocaust denial with Famine revisionism while ignoring the very obvious differences between the claims.
In other words…you lose. Next time argue ONLY those topics about which you have some prior knowledge.
BONUS!!
Due to your ignorance on the subject matter, ONE of the arguments you made ACTUALLY supports my side of the debate if your claim were true. Can YOU guess which one? I’m going to wait a while to tell you just to let you sweat. Hopefully in the mean time you will reflect on your ignorance relating to this topic and apologize for insulting Ukraine.
Well its value is deppreciated somewhat but the 4 or 5 posts before it that don’t address the issues and distort my argument with strawman claims…but that’s fine because I added my final words on this topic when I came into work this morning.
That was never the point. I’ve never set foot in Eastern Europe, but does that mean the Holocaust never happened?
You never set foot in North America, I presume? Does that mean that Slavery or the Indian massacres ever happened?
And I’m not lecturing anybody. I’m simply stating facts, you’re the one going on about this.
Nick, you didn’t know what OUN or UPA was until I told you, you didn’t know about the Galicia region until I told you, you didn’t know those people were living under Polish rule at the time of the famine until I told you. No longer will I point out your errors or specific ignorance like this so as to deny you the opportunity to proclaim after the fact that you knew.
Um, I’ve never commented on OUN or Galicia, as it was all irrelevant, like most of your arguments in this whole affair. BTW, I don’t recall you saying much about the Galicians at all. In fact, what do the Spanish have to do with this?
Why don’t you comment on the actual Communist Party of the Soviet Union policies at the time? You can’t find any human rights abuses? I find this notion rather amusing blindman…
Google search and Wikipedia aren’t going to counter my years of research on Ukrainian issues, including this one which I have examined from BOTH sides. I know Ukrainians personally, I have had to deal with Galician nationalists personally(unfortunately), and I know a nationalist when I see one. There is a REASON why many of the people responsible for your sources DON’T LIVE IN UKRAINE.
What? I can’t use Google? You know “nationalists” when you see one? That sounds rather funny, because you seem rather mindlessly nationalist to me!
Are you not the one complaining here about being “lectured?”
BTW, this is where you typically lie. I use Google, like you do, unless you have a ready made Ukrainian famine plethera of sources on your computer? And this is the third time you’ve accused me of getting my resources from Wilki! Well, here’s the only Wilki resource I used for researching:
The evil liars at Wilkipedia.
Douglas Tottle is a trade union activist and the author of the controversial book Fraud, Famine, and Fascism the Myth of the Ukrainian Genocide from Hitler to Harvard.
The official biography from that book is as follows: “Tottle has worked as a photographer and a photo-lab technician, fine artist, underground miner, and as a steelworker. An active trade unionist, Tottle edited the United Steelworkers journal “The Challenger” from 1975 to 1985, during the time the paper received over 20 international and Canadian journalism awards. Tottle has also worked as a labor history researcher, and as an organizer. During the 1970s he assisted the organizing drive of Chicano farmworkers in California and worked with Native Indian farmworkers in Manitoba. Tottle has written for various Canadian and U.S. periodicals, magazines, and labor journals.”
So instead of repeating your “half-truths” and “distortions,” why don’t you tell me what is incorrect in this Wilki article? I anxiously await your response on this, since you keep harping on it, as if it represents some brilliant point you’ve made that negates anything I’ve said. I’ve never proclaimed Wilki to be an invaluable source; what it is is a useful online “starter” taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.
And this article shows what a droning blathering fool you are. They actually give Tottle the thumbs up and uncritically repeat his lies: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/famine.htm/
So you are right, Wilki is indeed a fraudulent, unskeptical source that accepts everything at face value, I do not. All information is to be discounted!
What you have been doing here is pissing on the memory of over 5 million Ukrainians who fought tenaciously against the brutal Nazi invaders, and defiling the graves of many more who were slaughtered not only by the Axis invaders but their helpers in the OUN- the same type of people who pulled the triggers at Babi Yar and ran the engines at Treblinka. These same thugs tried to re-invent the history of their organization in the 80s and Cold War fanatics such as yourself have made that largely successful. However, those of us who know have seen the “paper trail” of publications they have put out over several decades clearly showing the character of their organization.
The Einsatzgruppen “pulled the trigger” at Babi Yar. I’ve never made ONE pro-OUN statement, have I? And apologists that have “re-invented” the Communist Party are equally vile.
You have tried to call me a liar, you have not been able to substantiate that claim.
Oh, I have deconstructed your ludicrous statements. Actually, I’ve showed you to be a bombastic liar regarding the Wilki issue.
You keep repeating ignorance that I some how gathered this all on Wilki while never proving anything!
You have deliberately distorted my claims just as your article distorts the claims of Tottle.
Which claim specifically? Name one? I’ve skewed your logic, but I’ve never needed to distort your arguments. You’re the one engaged in the repeating of a lie so that it becomes truth.
You have not answered the questions I posed to you nor did you acknowledge the numerous simple factual errors you have made in your claims.
LOL Neither have you! The documentary evidence is a dated book written by a Canadian labor activist editor with questionable scholarship that has proven to have distorted information regarding the famine in order to arrive to his pre-ordained conclusion. He almost openly admits this!
Tottle’s OWN WORDS relate that he had very little interest in the famine itself, and sought only to indict any Ukrainians that dared to implicate the Soviet Communist party.
You continue to spout the logical fallacy of juxtaposing Holocaust denial with Famine revisionism while ignoring the very obvious differences between the claims.
And you never really show how I “juxtapose” the “logical fallacy,” because you can’t!
It’s an open wound on your arguments.
In other words…you lose. Next time argue ONLY those topics about which you have some prior knowledge.
BONUS!![/SIZE]
You keep making retarded statements about “times up, you lose” and “swing, miss” blah blah blah blah… Is this some false bravado front you put up when owned?
(annoying font off :rolleyes: )Due to your ignorance on the subject matter, ONE of the arguments you made ACTUALLY supports my side of the debate if your claim were true. Can YOU guess which one? I’m going to wait a while to tell you just to let you sweat. Hopefully in the mean time you will reflect on your ignorance relating to this topic and apologize for insulting Ukraine. [/COLOR][/SIZE]
No, I can’t guess which one. But I’m sure you’ll tell me. Thank you for the bellicose grandstanding though!
BTW, when do you reflect on your ignorance of the Ukraine, and the fact that the only source you can provide for your arguments is still a Canadian author and labor activist, who was roundly criticized after receiving two accolades, and based his arguments on scurrilous repeaters in the Village Voice (a shit, alternative and newspaper that on can pick up for free in NYC --I think it’s free anyways). In fact, in the years since 1988 when the book was written, the arguments have only grown against this revisionism and his book, including only furtherance of declassified materials relating to the the period.
addendum
And I’m the “cold warrior” here? LOL! Look at your Red Banner avatar, and your mindless, bristling defensiveness at any unflattering portrays of Stalin’s reign, and your earlier critique of Capitalism.
You’re the one stuck in the Cold War, not me!
And BTW, maybe you can tell me how criticizing the Communist gov’ts handling of the famine is insulting to the Ukraine.
Strawman. I never said the fact that you never set foot here is the main problem. The problem is you don’t know the subject matter.
Other logical fallacy: Comparing this to Holocaust revisionism.
Wrong, I was born in America.
No, you are stating errors.
Actually it is very relevent. If you knew what you are talking about you would already know why.
Strawman, I never said their weren’t human rights abuses in the Soviet Union.
That went over your head I see.
Lectured by someone who doesn’t know the subject matter, yes.
Where is the lie?
No, I don’t get my facts from Google. I spend years and hundreds of dollars on books as well as many hours researching issues like this. Most of the research was done on the pro-famine side of the argument.
I cited Wiki as an example.
I already told you what was incorrect. Your source lies about Tottle’s argument and the facts he cites. I know this because I have read Tottle’s book and ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT IS CONTAINED therein.
Strawman, I never said you proclaimed Wiki to be invaluable. The problem is that you seem to think you can match years of research by searching on the internet.
Again, you have not read Tottle’s book, you are not familiar with the subject matter, ergo you are unqualified to determine what are “lies” and what is “blathering” in this subject.
You take at face value what supports your pre-conceived notions.
Guess who frequently volunteered for duty with the Einsatzgruppen?
No, in your delusional mind that twists my statements that may have happened, but certainly not here.
Never said that- Strawman.
Read this thread and you will see EACH strawman argument I pointed out.
Wrong. That is what the article you posted CLAIMS. I have read the book so I know these claims are incorrect. You have not, ergo you are not in a position to make that decision.
Please cite the page number or quote from Tottle when he said that.
Would you like me to?
I would love to see you do this same thing in a Physics forum. Start arguing with qualified people about subjects you know nothing about.
Go to a physics forum and “own” those eggheads!
Of course you can’t because you don’t know the claims on EITHER side apparently.
I provided more sources, you neglected to read them.
WHICH declassified materials?
Not taking sides here. But…
Would just like to say we can make that possible! I happen to be a geo-physicist.
You call physicists eggheads again and we are going to have problems.
No offense taken, this demonstrates that in that particular field you have the background knowledge necessary to determine credible or objective sources- for a hypothetical example.
What can I say when someone tells me that Galicia or OUN are “irrelevent” to politics and history of Ukraine and the famine? This is tantamount to saying that the Communist party is “irrelevent”, or that the “Nazi party” is irrelevent to the Holocaust.
Recognizing the history and internal politics of Ukraine, particularly the Galicia/East Ukraine split is crucial to judging the objectivity or agendas of certain materials. Western Ukrainians have been highly organized for decades and claim to speak for the majority of Ukrainians, but when pushed they lash out against anyone who does not support their bizarre dreams and claim that the majority of Ukrainians were “corrupted”.
Believe me, the nature of the 32-33 famine is not by FAR the biggest fairy-tale some of these people come up with. I am able to read Ukrainian nationalist sites and they make claims that are far more ludicrous. I remember one site many years ago where they edited some old map of medieval Europe, one that was made before Moscow was founded. They overtly ALTERED the map to rename “Rus” “Ukraina-Rus”(for one that knows Russian history this is hilarious) and then they point out how the land where Moscow would later be is labelled “Tatarie”, “proving” that Muscovites are actually Mongols(many of these people express bizarre racial theories).
By that same logic, I am an Apache Indian because I was born in Arizona and there are plenty of maps that show Arizona to be Native American land and later Mexican land.