I provided a link, I cited nothing.
And all you are doing is attacking the message bearer, because your ideology is one of lies.
Why don’t you provide your historical sources indicating that all Ukrainian nationalists are fascists or Nazi-collaborators.
Again, you’ve listed exactly: two articles, a discredited book written by an uneducated Canadian, and some sort of expertise on the Ukraine that you never document or show proof/sources of.
I provided a link, I cited nothing.
And all you are doing is attacking the message bearer, because your ideology is one of lies.
Why don’t you provide your historical sources indicating that all Ukrainian nationalists are fascists or Nazi-collaborators.
Again, you’ve listed exactly: two articles, a discredited book written by an uneducated Canadian, and some sort of expertise on the Ukraine that you never document or show proof/sources of.
Freedom is slavery…War is peace.
BTW, this is where Jasa is getting his info:
http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/Staljin/articles/lies/node6.html
http://www.stalinsociety.org.uk/ukrainian.html
Googling teen indeed…
Let’s finish this senseless wrangle.
It became insulting for each other.
By 1940, the Gulag Archipelago housed fully 10,000,000 pitiful souls…
this is enought to no more read this shit.
About femine 
Nickdfresh, my gramma had a sister in Ukraine and she told me about femine of 1932-1933. Simular the situation was in Kuban and Volga region before the beginnig of collectivisation . The victims were of couse , but its number was never a “millions”.
If it would be, the population of this regions of USSR were decreased.
But according the census of 1928 -1937 yy the population all of the republic of SU was increased over a millions.
Therefore i don’t see the reason to overstate the situation. Obviously you use a Cold War propoganga sources.
Method is simple.
Take the number ececuted in Gulag (since 1932-1953) 800 000 and multipled in 20 ( most bold “historians” ever 40 or 60 times).
800 000 ( OK., 1 million) - this is tragedy - but 20/40/60 millions this is propoganda already
This f…ng historians don’t worry about increasing of population in 1930-1941.
Besause in West everybody easy could belive this shit.
But unfortinatelly for you ( and peoples like you) recollections of my ancestors and offisial russians NKVD-archives documents will not let you to mislead the peoples.
Chevan, NKVD archives proves 10 mln victims claim.
"In XX century Ukraine suffered 3 famines: 1921-1923, 1932-1933 and 1946-1947. However, the second one was the most terrible.
According to the historians, the famine of 1932-1933 resulted from the administrative measures of the soviet power killed about 7-10 million people.
It means that at that time Ukraine registered a 10-25% decline in the population, losing 25 thousand people per day, 3 thousand per hour and 17 per minute.
The experts drew the conclusion that in 1931 the life span of a man run at 7,3 years, the life span of a woman – 10,9 years. According to the experts, Ukraine is still suffering from the consequences of the events of the 1930s."
Don’t forget that there are also the other sources. In 1932-33 Polish II-nd Department of General Staff, had wide intelligence network in Eastern Ukraine which was considered an operation area of future war.
Ukrainian famine was reported, analysed and reports passed to French and British intelligence agencies.
Assumption that soviet Ukraine was cut off from outside world is wrong.
I will look in some sources and publish them here.
Lancer44
Jesus Christ, I’ve been going over the last source the teenager provided and I discovered it to be EXCELLENT material that actually refutes his claim(mainly because he’s not sure what his claim is apparently). This is the SECOND time he has provided something that actually aids my argument, based on his ignorance of the topic in general.
The first was his claim that the Ukrainian population grew because Stalin moved “Russians” into the region. Of course had he studied the material on this claim and was familiar with the bizarre method by which the famine deaths were calculated, he wouldn’t have made such a comment. That’s what ignorance does.
I looked over his paper that he provided, presumably “NKVD documents”. Of course the paper ISN’T NKVD documents but actually a paper ABOUT research in the Soviet archives. Most of it deals with the economy and the one line I found in reference to the famine claims(without footnote reference) that Stalin had to be convinced that the famine was not a kulak myth. I wish the author would have been more specific about what they meant but taken at face value, we can logically conclude that this could not have happened if the famine were indeed a conscious man-made action against the Ukrainians(plenty of famine writers admit that there were also problems in the North Caucasus and Volga regions outside of Ukraine), Stalin would not have needed to be convinced it was happening by the people he would have ordered to carry it out!
This is why there is no point in debating with this boy. His arugment relies on strawman fallacies, ad hominem, and illogical comparisons to the Holocaust(there is a big difference between gas chambers and firing squads and a famine).
Worst of all, his total ignorance about even his own arguments means that he has already TWICE made claims that support my side and he won’t admit it.
In fact I am keeping the paper he linked to by Davies and I will definitely be citing it in future discussions on Stalin- that is debates with opponents who actually have the required knowledge to comment on these issues.
WHICH NKVD documents? I already told the little boy that you can’t just say “NKVD documents” to support any old claim.
The population deficits in Ukraine reflect a lowering of the BIRTHRATE as well as census recalculations that changed the nationality of people(e.g. mixed marriage). This is based on the PRO-GENOCIDE method of calculating deaths by using the birthrate in 1926 and then when looking at the population in 1939 they claim that the difference between their projection and the actual population in 1939 is the number of people that died. In other words, they count as “dead” many people that simply weren’t born for a number of reasons.
By contrast the method for calculating the deaths in the Holocaust is far simpler and shows a population LOSS. Using the Nazi estimate of 11 million Jews under the areas they controlled, research showed that about 6 or more million of those COULD NOT BE ACCOUNTED FOR after the war. After adjusting for those that escaped or died of natural causes, you have a POPULATION DROP of about 6 million people.
In Ukraine by 1939 you have a HIGHER population. Faminologists calculate by assuming that the birthrate in 1926 stayed constant the entire time and then make a projection for 1939 based on that assumed birthrate despite plenty of issues that lowered that birthrate post-1926. Furthermore, reclassifying the Kuban Cossacks as “Russian” instead of Ukrainian technically LOWERED the “Ukrainian” population by a significant amount, yet these people weren’t killed.
Russians like my grandfather were who save the world wrom the Nazism.
And it’s seems for me that your ancestors even didn’t know what the fight with fascists.
… I have a new genuine empathy for the Jews that suffer persecution at the hands of stupid people. Maybe they have a point.
May be they have a problems. To blame all the world in “silence” …
Well, my rants were not really anti-Israeli as much as anti-Zionist. Why don’t you make some “anti-Israeli” comments about how they are how they are “hook-nosed bastards that control the media and banking?”
You make a big mistake.
Israel politic is not the Zionosm ( Or do you prefered to talk by the president of Iran languages).
It just the resault of survival in enemy’s environment.(althout Israel look like agressor at the last time)
But in Israel the jews have all the right to make the “hard” actions for defence its state. I too much know today what’s islamic extremists.
What’s the real Zeonosm - this lie about 6 million victims of Holocaust.
This allow the jews:
Why do you need me in your corner?
My corner ???
If i could write in english as easy as Jasa , i could write much more.
But honestly thinking , i see that you are uncapable to think, just repeat alien article and “Goodl-sources”.
Guys, I have absolutely no clue what this Thread is about from reading the posts here. I was going to take the time to split them into diffrent subjects, but I havent a clue where to start.
Maybe we should re-name it ‘Rambling in Circles without end about various subjects’?
I’m locking it until a descision about its future can be reached.
As always PM either me or another Mod if you have any problem with this.
Cheers…
Try here: http://www.sbu.gov.ua/sbu/control/uk/index
The population deficits in Ukraine reflect a lowering of the BIRTHRATE as well as census recalculations that changed the nationality of people(e.g. mixed marriage).
Or a famine?
This is based on the PRO-GENOCIDE method of calculating deaths by using the birthrate in 1926 and then when looking at the population in 1939 they claim that the difference between their projection and the actual population in 1939 is the number of people that died. In other words, they count as “dead” many people that simply weren’t born for a number of reasons.
Really, what are you basing this on? Can I have some documentation for this?
By contrast the method for calculating the deaths in the Holocaust is far simpler and shows a population LOSS. Using the Nazi estimate of 11 million Jews under the areas they controlled, research showed that about 6 or more million of those COULD NOT BE ACCOUNTED FOR after the war. After adjusting for those that escaped or died of natural causes, you have a POPULATION DROP of about 6 million people.
Actually, it wasn’t that simple. There were significant oral histories of survivors that could be verifiably traced to places of origins, families, and the like. Had the Nazis won WWII, they simply would have purged documents that directly related to the day-to-day running of the Holocaust and locked any significant historical record of Judaism of ever existing; in essence, they would have undoubtedly employed a line of reasoning very similar to the ones you have in this thread. In fact, during the minutes of Wannsee meeting, the Nazis discussed this very aspect of semantic denial…
In Ukraine by 1939 you have a HIGHER population. Faminologists calculate by assuming that the birthrate in 1926 stayed constant the entire time and then make a projection for 1939 based on that assumed birthrate despite plenty of issues that lowered that birthrate post-1926. Furthermore, reclassifying the Kuban Cossacks as “Russian” instead of Ukrainian technically LOWERED the “Ukrainian” population by a significant amount, yet these people weren’t killed.
Again, do you have actual documentation for this, or are you simply quoting from a book that was written with an almost admittedly fraudulent purpose of Cold War deception and apologist agenda?
Nice “Strawman” argument by the way.
Still like losing arguments don’t you. Here’s the problem. I read your sources, you still don’t want to read mine. So you lose. You can’t just take some article written after the fact and then say “this debunks” something that you never read.
You have already demonstrated that you will consider anything that doesn’t support your view to be “Cold War” propaganda. You are so ignorant about the topic, that you ask for DOCUMENTATION for something that is central to your claim. You try to lecture me about Ukrainian history and the famine and yet didn’t even know about the methodology USED by those who repackaged the famine in the 80s like Mace and Conquest? What the hell is wrong with you?
Next time I think you should go into some medical forum and start telling qualified doctors your theories on medicine. If someone suggests a source that disagrees with your theories, simply use Google to find some article that says their source is wrong, and be done with it. No need to actually READ the source to verify that the criticism is true.
LOL I “lost” the argument? Is that why you conspicuously avoided any thread regarding recent news reports of the Ukrainian (fascist) gov’t trying to get the Holomador acknowledged, and the Russian gov’t trying to pressure the international community to stop said acknowledgement?
That’s pretty funny, and since your ‘source’ is an uneducated dead Canadian admitted-communist whose book has been discredited by actual Russo-Ukrainian scholars at accredited universities. A man (Tottle) whose sole journalistic scholarship was to edit a third-rate “workers” journal for a fourth rate ‘union.’ Also a man that had no discernible training to be a journalist or a researcher whatsoever, and wrote articles often mindlessly defending Soviet interests such as “An End to Anticommunism” during the 1980s, or something like that…
.
Try again Pumpkin, only reality can stop you now.
You have already demonstrated that you will consider anything that doesn’t support your view to be “Cold War” propaganda.
Oh pot tea-kettle sunshine, in fact Tottle admits his agenda is to basically to get American conservatives to stop using the “Holomador” as anti-Soviet propaganda. And you are the one that accused me of being the “Cold Warrior” even though I’m a pretty liberal-progressive…
I also like the way he puts a Swastika over a painting of famine victims, as if they deserved to be starved to death because they are “fascists,” very nice. BTW, you’ve also left out certain pertinent facts, like Tottle’s book is a cause celeb on Stalinist apologist sites that are also hosted in western countries.
You are so ignorant about the topic, that you ask for DOCUMENTATION for something that is central to your claim.
Again, I’ll just repeat it since you clearly ignore these facts regarding your supposed scholarship that you quickly could have gleaned while reading one of half-a-dozen pro-Communist message boards. And the reason why it is on the internet (a communist site called “Rational Revolution” LOL) is that it was largely removed from university bookshelves because it’s scholarship was absolutely horrid & second rate at best, and overt lies of omission and well, lies at worst. No one will touch it, much like David Irving’s work, since they both have the same apologist intent of ignoring key facts and presenting a patently dishonest argument.
And the claim is not mine, it is YOUR claim since you’re the one making it?
That’s pretty funny, and since your ‘source’ is an uneducated dead Canadian admitted-communist whose book has been discredited by actual Russo-Ukrainian scholars at accredited universities. A man (Tottle) whose sole journalistic scholarship was to edit a third-rate “workers” journal for a fourth rate ‘union.’ Also a man that had no discernible training to be a journalist or a researcher whatsoever, and wrote articles often mindlessly defending Soviet interests such as “An End to Anticommunism” or something like that…
You try to lecture me about Ukrainian history and the famine and yet didn’t even know about the methodology USED by those who repackaged the famine in the 80s like Mace and Conquest? What the hell is wrong with you?
Here, I’ll repeat myself again since you seem a tad “slow”:
That’s pretty funny, and since your ‘source’ is an uneducated dead Canadian admitted-communist whose book has been discredited by actual Russo-Ukrainian scholars at accredited universities. A man (Tottle) whose sole journalistic scholarship was to edit a third-rate “workers” journal for a fourth rate ‘union.’ Also a man that had no discernible training to be a journalist or a researcher whatsoever, and wrote articles often mindlessly defending Soviet interests such as “An End to Anticommunism” (or something like that) during the 1980s…
Next time I think you should go into some medical forum and start telling qualified doctors your theories on medicine. If someone suggests a source that disagrees with your theories, simply use Google to find some article that says their source is wrong, and be done with it. No need to actually READ the source to verify that the criticism is true.
LOL Do not insult doctors with your “scholarship.” BTW, again, your arguments are something akin to a Nazi German stating that no one can discuss the Holocaust, because they do not know enough about German history of geography. Good one! Try again pookey, and we’ll just ignore how you’ve actually provided no information that again, one could not have gleaned from reading threads at a pro-Soviet message board.
And doctors do not get their sources from the likes of:
…your ‘source’ is an uneducated dead Canadian admitted-communist whose book has been discredited by actual Russo-Ukrainian scholars at accredited universities. A man (Tottle) whose sole journalistic scholarship was to edit a third-rate “workers” journal for a fourth rate ‘union.’ Also a man that had no discernible training to be a journalist or a researcher whatsoever, and wrote articles often mindlessly defending Soviet interests such as “An End to Anticommunism” (or something like that) during the 1980s…
I will no more take the time to read tottle’s book than I will to read David Irving’s utter shit…
When you’re done pissing on the graves of dead Ukrainians, and covering famine victims with a swastika, let me know JASA…
BTW, here’s Tottle’s extensive Ukrainian specialty listed…nowhere on his official biography in the book:
ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Born in Quebec, Douglas Tottle has spent most of his life in Western Canada. Tottle has worked as a photographer and a photo-lab technician, fine artist, underground miner, and as a steelworker. An active trade unionist, Tottle edited the United Steelworkers journal “The Challenger” from 1975 to 1985, during the time the paper received over 20 international and Canadian journalism awards. Tottle has also worked as a labor history researcher, and as an organizer. During the 1970s he assisted the organizing drive of Chicano farmworkers in California and worked with Native Indian farmworkers in Manitoba. Tottle has written for various Canadian and U.S. periodicals, magazines, and labor journals. [from page at the beginning of the book]
LOL@: http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=28616