On my background, I am of the same Galician-Ukrainian descent of these OUN/UNA-UNSO nutcases. I could be called a “nationalist” ONLY in the sense that I recognize Ukraine’s integral role in Russian history, in fact it was once the center of Russian power. Had the Mongols not sacked Kiev, Moscow and what is called “Rossiya” could have been “Ukraina”. The largest problem in Russia is the fact that “Russian” is still associated exclusively to Muscovites when in fact it should apply to Belarussians and Ukrainians as far as the old Carpathian border. The country of “Rossiya” all the way to Vladivostok, was built not only by Muscovites but thousands if not millions of Ukrainians and Belarussians as well. Why should our people be denied what our ancestors fought for just for some new flag, false history, a pat on the head from Western businessmen, and self-serving egotistical leaders that want to shrink the pond to become bigger fish?
Oftopic
Whoa, i’ve specialised in seismology. Mine graduation work was Earth’s crust structure in Karelia region based on data from new small-aperture seismograph group. It’s a shame i didn’t work as physicist since university though.
This is my final (three-part) retort to this stuff. Apparently Jasa just wants to engag in name calling and argument rather than discussion, and his inflammatory post containing little more than viceral anger has forced me to post yet again, and waste my Sunday morning on subjects that really should be above this discussion. But I feel this final post is necesaary for the silenced victims in the Ukrainian soils that cannot indict the "ministry of truth."
But an apparently communist, pro-Soviet writer from Canada, that has no apparent formal education or historical training, that only ever wrote one book, did?
Wrong, I was born in America.
Interesting. Didn’t you say that you were Ukrainian? I believe one of your cohorts said that you have relatives in the Ukraine? Do you have duel citizenship?
No, you are stating errors.
Tell me how?
Actually it is very relevent. If you knew what you are talking about you would already know why.
No it isn’t. Your central argument is that all sources for this famine being tantamount to genocide are essentially nationalist, pro-Nazi propaganda repeated by Ukrainian nationalists. This argument is clearly discredited in the source I provided. It’s simply irrelevant, even if there is some truth in it. Yes Ukrainian fascists may well have used this famine as propaganda, just like the Nazis used Katyn as anti-Soviet propaganda.
Did that make the slaughter of upwards of 40,000 Poles by the NKVD a hoax too? Or did the Germans really do it Sycophant?
Strawman, I never said their weren’t human rights abuses in the Soviet Union.
Sycophant, my name is not “Strawman.”
What you did say was that you started out as an “anti-Stalin crusader.” And that you gradually came to believe that he was essentially a good leader because you “couldn’t find” evidence of his atrocities. Or at least they weren’t his fault? Did you not?
It’s a notion so patently absurd and intellectually offensive, that many would call you a preposterous liar, concealing his predisposed ideological agenda.
Are we playing fast and loose with the cute semantics now?
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88483&postcount=30
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88537&postcount=55
LOL A classic David Irving-esque post. Just insert Hitler over Stalin.
Maybe you should revise your search by looking at some of the newly declassified documents?
And again, you stated that Nizkor is a good place to get Holocaust info. online with a great deal of credibility, yet they have a link to that very site -Infoukes! Perhaps they’re in cahoots with Ukrainian ex-Nazis too! A point you’ve completely ignored in your OUN-mantra.
Apparently, they also question Tottle’s scholarship. Or perhaps you can inform them of their egregious error, and then post the e-mail correspondence here for all to see, so we can all have a good laugh! 
Here’s a link to monosyllabic fucktard-Tottle’s book, I got from “Google,” where he admits his book “does not attempt to study the famine in any detailed way.” Yeah, a book thats central thesis is that it’s all an anti-Communist hoax meant to portray the USSR in an unfavorable historical light (by capitalists), but he doesn’t actually study the famine?!?!
http://rationalrevolution.net/special/library/famine.htm
:lol:
Any three-year old child can see his attempt at little more than an ass-covering for crimes committed in the Soviet Union.
That went over your head I see.
yawn
Lectured by someone who doesn’t know the subject matter, yes.
I’m lecturing a fool that gets all of his supposed “knowledge” from an apparantly uneducated Canadian labor activist, communists, and cannot find any reason to denounce the great Joe Stalin apparently.
Where is the lie?
It’s a half-truth and blatant distortion you are using in some partisan flaming-fashion.
No, I don’t get my facts from Google. I spend years and hundreds of dollars on books as well as many hours researching issues like this. Most of the research was done on the pro-famine side of the argument.
Google has no facts! It’s a search engine! A tool, much like you are.
And it appears that your search comes down to a singular source of what is again a widely discredited book, by a Canadian labor activist, and a person that that did little else. Academics have dismissed his scurrilous methodologies.
But a writer from Canada that has no apparent education or historical training, that only ever wrote one book, did?
Wrong, I was born in America.
Interesting. Didn’t you say that you were Ukrainian? I believe one of your cohorts said that you have relatives in the Ukraine? Do you have duel citizenship?
No, you are stating errors.
Tell me how?
Actually it is very relevent. If you knew what you are talking about you would already know why.
No it isn’t. Your central argument is that all sources for this famine being tantamount to genocide are essentially nationalist, pro-Nazi propaganda repeated by Ukrainian nationalists. This argument is clearly discredited in the source I provided. It’s simply irrelevant…
Cont’d
Strawman, I never said their weren’t human rights abuses in the Soviet Union.
Sycophant, my name is not “Strawman.”
What you did say was that you started out as an “anti-Stalin crusader.” And that you gradually came to believe that he was essentially a good leader because you “couldn’t find” evidence of his atrocities. Did you not?
It’s a notion so patently absurd and intellectually offensive, that many would call you a preposterous liar.
Are we playing fast and loose with the cute semantics now?
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88483&postcount=30
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88537&postcount=55
LOL A classic David Irving-esque post. Just insert Hitler over Stalin.
Maybe you should revise your search by looking at some of the newly declassified documents?
And again, you stated that Niztor is a good place to get Holocuast info. online, yet they have a link to that very site -Infoukes!
Lectured by someone who doesn’t know the subject matter, yes.
I’m lecturing a fool that gets all of his supposed “knowledge” from an uneducated Canadian labor activist, communists, and cannot find any reason to denounce the great Joe Stalin apparently.
Where is the lie?[/quote]
It’s a half-truth and blatant distortion you are using in some partisan flaming-fashion.
No, I don’t get my facts from Google. I spend years and hundreds of dollars on books as well as many hours researching issues like this. Most of the research was done on the pro-famine side of the argument.
Google has no facts! it’s a search engine! A tool, like you are!
And it appears that your search comes down to a singular source of what is again a widely discredited book, by a Canadian labor activist that did little else. Academics dismissed his scurrilous methodologies.
I cited Wiki as an example.
You distorted it into a truth. And BTW, they appear to soundly agree with you.
And to further discredit your arguments, you then tell everyone to look at a book posted online! :lol:
We can’t use Google, or Wilki, but those online books are to accepted as absolute gospel on the subject.
BTW, you ignore that I’ve provided sources by Western academics in Eastern European studies dept’s, not OUN or fascists. I never cited anything by Wilki.
I already told you what was incorrect. Your source lies about Tottle’s argument and the facts he cites. I know this because I have read Tottle’s book and ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT IS CONTAINED therein.
The “facts” he cites are plainly WRONG! He knowingly engages in deception to advance what he sees as a greater truth. In fact his contentions are so owned, that he must acknowledge that the first famine, which was also exacerbated by Soviet authorities, existed.
Strawman, I never said you proclaimed Wiki to be invaluable. The problem is that you seem to think you can match years of research by searching on the internet.
Yet you told me to consult the internet you fraud! And again, your sum total of “years of research” is that “it’s not Stalin’s fault” and a single cited book written in 1988, and a few articles coincidentally written around the same time, and of yes, an unbiased account written by a Belgian communist. A book that was shown to engage in deception then, now a book that must deal with the archives of the former Soviet Union.
Again, you have not read Tottle’s book, you are not familiar with the subject matter, ergo you are unqualified to determine what are “lies” and what is “blathering” in this subject.
Well, seeing as I don’t have time, and it’s little more than I care for seeing as it has been roundly dismissed as an Irving-esque deception of the sycophantic.
You take at face value what supports your pre-conceived notions.
LOL How are those “years of research” going?
Guess who frequently volunteered for duty with the Einsatzgruppen?
Germans? oh, UKRAINIANS!! Really? wow! That must mean the Ukrainian Famine is all a fake perpetrated by fascists!!
And 1+1=10!!!
BTW, didn’t German Wehrmacht troops train in the Soviet Union for a time under Stalin’s reign, with his full blessing? Since their armored formations would have been illegal in Germany under terms of Versailles…
No, in your delusional mind that twists my statements that may have happened, but certainly not here.
Welcome to my world.
Never said that- Strawman.
Read this thread and you will see EACH strawman argument I pointed out.
Wrong. That is what the article you posted CLAIMS. I have read the book so I know these claims are incorrect. You have not, ergo you are not in a position to make that decision.
LOL You fail to mention the article at all or refute any of its assertions. You ramble on about the “photo-argument” like a fool after the article roundly dismisses it a irrelevant (at worst), and in fact even a further a tacit acknowledgement that there were in fact two famines that were exacerbated or engineered by Soviets, not just one.
Final part:
Please cite the page number or quote from Tottle when he said that.
LOL You’re such a hypocrite! I have to annotate sources now in my arguments as you shit our of your mouth and repeat yourself? Never providing ANYTHING but a mantra of “read Tottle’s book!”
Would you like me to?
I could give fuckall actually. It seems that you really want to though.
I would love to see you do this same thing in a Physics forum. Start arguing with qualified people about subjects you know nothing about.
No. What I’d really love to have a Holocaust denier sit here and recite “read David Irving’s book!”
Go to a physics forum and “own” those eggheads!
LOL So you’re an “egg head” now? Are you an academic too?
Actually, if you weren’t such so fucking hypocritical and foolish, you’d see that the very title of Tottle’s book “…to Harvard” implies exactly that! That he has this “new truth,” and is “owning the eggheads,” or academics at Harvard, Columbia, Quebec, etc. and inform them that it was ALL a fascist hoax and exaggeration. What a massive oversimplification that any historian or academic could see as hollow apologism and revisionism!
If you weren’t so engaged in your double standards, hypocrisies, and bombastic assertions based on nothing, then you’d possibly see that.
In your time here, you also stated that there “is no such thing as Stalinism.” Another lie that is so patently ridiculous, you’d be drummed out of any history dept. of most major universities.
Of course you can’t because you don’t know the claims on EITHER side apparently.
I provided more sources, you neglected to read them.
Pot tea-kettle sunshine. You keep repeating the same discredited arguments of repetition, the overreaching arguments of “fascist conspiracy of hoax,” “your singular scholarship,” “pictures from the wrong Soviet engineered famine as proof of a hoax,” as the crux of your increasingly hollow arguments
WHICH declassified materials?
The ones you apparently missed in your desperate search as an “anti-Stalin crusader.” :lol:
The ones academics have used to expose ideological buffoons such as yourself.
I cited Wiki as an example.
You distorted it into a truth. And BTW, they appear to soundly agree with you.
And to further discredit your arguments, you then tell everyone to look at a book posted online! :lol:
We can’t use Google, or Wilki, but those online books are to accepted as absolute gospel on the subject.
BTW, you ignore that I’ve provided sources by Western academics in Eastern European studies dept’s, not OUN or fascists. I never cited anything by Wilki.
I already told you what was incorrect. Your source lies about Tottle’s argument and the facts he cites. I know this because I have read Tottle’s book and ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT IS CONTAINED therein.
The “facts” he cites are plainly WRONG! He knowingly engages in deception to advance what he sees as a greater truth. In fact his contentions are so owned, that he must acknowledge that the first famine, which was also exacerbated by Soviet authorities, existed.
Strawman, I never said you proclaimed Wiki to be invaluable. The problem is that you seem to think you can match years of research by searching on the internet.
Yet you told me to consult the internet you fraud! And again, your sum total of “years of research” is that “it’s not Stalin’s fault” and a single cited book written in 1988, and a few articles coincidentally written around the same time, and of yes, an unbiased account written by a Belgian communist. A book that was shown to engage in deception then, now a book that must deal with the archives of the former Soviet Union.
Again, you have not read Tottle’s book, you are not familiar with the subject matter, ergo you are unqualified to determine what are “lies” and what is “blathering” in this subject.
Well, seeing as I don’t have time, and it’s little more than I care for seeing as it has been roundly dismissed as an Irving-esque deception of the sycophantic.
You take at face value what supports your pre-conceived notions.
LOL How are those “years of research” going?
Guess who frequently volunteered for duty with the Einsatzgruppen?
Germans? oh, UKRAINIANS!! Really? wow! That must mean the Ukrainian Famine is all a fake perpetrated by fascists!!
And 1+1=10!!!
BTW, didn’t German Wehrmacht troops train in the Soviet Union for a time under Stalin’s reign, with his full blessing? Since their armored formations would have been illegal in Germany under terms of Versailles…
No, in your delusional mind that twists my statements that may have happened, but certainly not here.
Welcome to my world.
Never said that- Strawman.
Read this thread and you will see EACH strawman argument I pointed out.
Wrong. That is what the article you posted CLAIMS. I have read the book so I know these claims are incorrect. You have not, ergo you are not in a position to make that decision.
LOL You fail to mention the article at all or refute any of its assertions. You ramble on about the “photo-argument” like a fool after the article roundly dismisses it a irrelevant (at worst), and in fact even a further a tacit acknowledgement that there were in fact two famines that were exacerbated or engineered by Soviets, not just one.
Please cite the page number or quote from Tottle when he said that.
LOL You’re such a hypocrite! I have to annotate sources now in my arguments as you shit our of your mouth and repeat yourself? Never providing ANYTHING but a mantra of “read Tottle’s book!”
Check the quote above!
Would you like me to?
I could give fuckall actually. It seems that you really want to though.
I would love to see you do this same thing in a Physics forum. Start arguing with qualified people about subjects you know nothing about.
No. What I’d really love to have a Holocaust denier sit here and recite “read David Irving’s book!”
Go to a physics forum and “own” those eggheads!
LOL So you’re an “egg head” now? Are you an academic too? :lol:
Actually, if you weren’t such so fucking hypocritical and foolish, you’d see that the very title of Tottle’s book “…to Harvard” implies exactly that! That he has this “new truth,” and is “owning the eggheads,” or academics at Harvard, Columbia, Quebec, etc. and inform them that it was ALL a fascist hoax and exaggeration. What a massive oversimplification that any historian or academic could see as hollow apologism and revisionism!
If you weren’t so engaged in your double standards, hypocrisies, and bombastic assertions based on nothing --then you’d possibly see that.
In your time here, you also stated that there “is no such thing as Stalinism.” Another lie that is so patently ridiculous, you’d be drummed out of any history dept. of most major universities.
Of course you can’t because you don’t know the claims on EITHER side apparently.
I provided more sources, you neglected to read them.
Pot tea-kettle sunshine. You keep repeating the same discredited arguments of repetition, the overreaching arguments of “fascist conspiracy of hoax,” “your singular scholarship,” “pictures from the wrong Soviet engineered famine as proof of a hoax,” as the crux of your increasingly hollow arguments.
WHICH declassified materials?
The ones you apparently missed in your desperate search as an “anti-Stalin crusader.” :lol:
The ones academics have used to expose thinly-veiled ideological-agenda-monkeys such as yourself.
I’m with the Minstry of Truthiness.
[b]Whole lotta nothing there. Once again you repeatedly lie, distort my arguments, and make assertions you are not qualified to make. I have repeatedly pointed out your distortions, logical fallacies, failure to account, throughout this entire thread. For specific examples feel free to browse this thread to your heart’s content. Otherwise you are not going to insult my heritage and peopel any more with your ignorance or arrogance.
You claim that I deny excesses and killing under the Stalin regime: FALSE.
You claim that I accuse every pro-famine source of being Fascist: FALSE.
You continue to compare the famine genocide to the Holocaust: Inaccurate analogy- the Holocaust has met its burden of proof MANY times over, the famine has not. A famine is a natural occurance, gas chambers and firing squads are not.
You say I don’t provide you with sources: FALSE, I provided you with several. You deliberately chose NOT to read ANY of them simply because you found an article claiming they were discreditted. You then decided that because these articles you recently found on the internet said my sources are “discreditted” that this may be the case.
I pointed out where your article makes false claims about Tottle’s work. You IGNORED that.
You claimed that organizations like the OUN, or modern nationalist organizations are not “relevant” to this issue. They are EXTREMELY relevant.
I have asked you REPEATEDLY to cite which documents prove the famine of 32-33 was deliberate engineered genocide against the Ukrainian nationality. You have repeatedly refused to do so, thinking that you can somehow “prove” anything by saying “NKVD DOCUMENTS!”
And last but not least, in your ignorance you actually made an argument that supports MY side of the debate. I’m still going to hold on to that one for later.
Because you insist on lying and then accusing me of lying(among other things), and because you continue to ignore my demands that you account for your ignorant statements, I will hereby ignore you.
I will continue to do so until that time which you apologize in this thread for insulting the Ukrainian people, attempting to incite Ukrainian vs. Russian hatred(in reference to your earlier comments), and attempting to argue issues about which it is clear you know nothing.
I don’t CARE if you still disagree, I don’t care if you still insist that I am wrong. What matters is that I not be lectured as to who or what constitutes “facts” or what is “discreditted” by someone who never put in the time to get the necessary knowledge required to make those determinations.
The more you degenerate into profanity the more your age and lack of knowledge and experience is laid bare.[/b]
:lol:
I’m not the that started the name calling “moron,” you are!
You’re out!
Now that the little boy is on ignore, I invite anyone who questions the conduct of this to please read all the pages of the thread and it will be apparent as to what my actual argument and facts are. I am not going to argue issues I have studied for years against some Google-saavy teenager that can’t even handle Ukrainian geography.
Also, I encourage readers to examine BOTH sides of the issue. PLEASE read the article Nick posted and then find the PDF copy of Douglas Tottle’s book, Famine, Fraud, and Fascism. You will soon see how the author of the article deliberate distorts Tottle’s allegations and neglects to rebut a large portion of the book, including some of the most important arguments.
Since this is so often compared to Holocaust denial, I encourage people to learn exactly what evidence is provided to prove the Holocaust, and then compare it to what has been presented to date on the famine claims. Pay VERY close attention to the method by which the demographics are presented. You will see a disturbing difference between the simplicity of calculations for the Holocaust and the ridiculously complicated and convoluted method used to calculate the victims of the “famine genocide.”
The famine genocide was the product of a fanatical nationalist organization, knowing West Ukrainian nationalists far better than I would like to, I believe that people like Tottle might actually be WRONG to simply call OUN “fascist” from the start. These nationalists have historically latched on to any and ALL stronger factions that could offer them power. In the Russian Civil War the Western Ukrainian army did at times fight alongside the Red Army. In order to avoid being part of the Ukrainian SSR, they then allowed the Poles to dominate Galicia. Growing tired of the Poles, they then began an insurrection against Poland, assisted the Nazis in their invasion, and then later slaughtered thousands of innocent Poles throughout the war. Decades later, these emigres found willing accomplices with Western governments eager to break up the Soviet Union, of course doing so meant rewriting the history and propaganda of their organizations. Blaming the famine on the Jewish-Bolsheviks didn’t go over so well in liberal democratic societies.
Today they continue to drone on about “Ukrainian” independence and distinctions- yet they do so from comfortable places like Toronto or Sacramento, never having to actually LIVE in the “free” country they allegedly “fought for”. No loss of course, Ukraine doesn’t need them.
Here’s a link on an ongoing project to examine declassified Soviet documents:
From the source, Pgs 10-11:
“These reports presented a world of conspiracy and counter-revolution which
was almost absent from t he regular reports of the economic agencies, except during the purges of 1937 – 1938. The characteristic feature of all NKVD reports was their emphasis on cases and alleged cases of social unrest and sabotage. But they did not consist entirely of myths which were distorting reality. Sometimes they dealt with matters which the normal economic agencies were reluctant to report, or not allowed
to report. It was apparently the NKVD reports on the rural famine in the spring of 1933 which persuaded Stalin that the famine was not a kulak myth.”
I have yet to see the claim that Stalin believed the famine to be a “kulak myth”. There are plenty of records inside and outside of the Soviet Union relating to the struggle in the countryside that was going on prior to the famine. We know that Stalin was well-informed by subordinates on these problems, so much to the extent that he even publicly addressed these issues and put much of the blame on the party rather than the kulak sabotuers.
I will attempt to print this document out and examine it. To date the most extensive, authentic study of declassified Soviet archival documents was conducted by J. Arch Getty, Dugin, and Zemskov. They worked together examining over 9,000 documents regarding the GULAG system.
The official Ukranian Gov’t website, or “OU fascists,” as Jasa likes to say.
Towards a Descriptive Typology of the Ukrainian Archival Heritage Abroad
Ukraine Famine - 1932-1933 - 7,000,000 Deaths
Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.
The Ukrainian independence movement actually predated the Stalin era. Ukraine, which measures about the size of France, had been under the domination of the Imperial Czars of Russia for 200 years. With the collapse of the Czarist rule in March 1917, it seemed the long-awaited opportunity for independence had finally arrived. Optimistic Ukrainians declared their country to be an independent People’s Republic and re-established the ancient capital city of Kiev as the seat of government.
However, their newfound freedom was short-lived. By the end of 1917, Vladimir Lenin, the first leader of the Soviet Union, sought to reclaim all of the areas formerly controlled by the Czars, especially the fertile Ukraine. As a result, four years of chaos and conflict followed in which Ukrainian national troops fought against Lenin’s Red Army, and also against Russia’s White Army (troops still loyal to the Czar) as well as other invading forces including the Germans and Poles.
By 1921, the battles ended with a Soviet victory while the western part of the Ukraine was divided-up among Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia. The Soviets immediately began shipping out huge amounts of grain to feed the hungry people of Moscow and other big Russian cities. Coincidentally, a drought occurred in the Ukraine, resulting in widespread starvation and a surge of popular resentment against Lenin and the Soviets.
Ukraine Famine
To lessen the deepening resentment, Lenin relaxed his grip on the country, stopped taking out so much grain, and even encouraged a free-market exchange of goods. This breath of fresh air renewed the people’s interest in independence and resulted in a national revival movement celebrating their unique folk customs, language, poetry, music, arts, and Ukrainian orthodox religion.
But when Lenin died in 1924, Joseph Stalin, one of the most ruthless humans ever to hold power, succeeded him. To Stalin, the burgeoning national revival movement and continuing loss of Soviet influence in the Ukraine was completely unacceptable. To crush the people’s free spirit, he began to employ the same methods he had successfully used within the Soviet Union. Thus, beginning in 1929, over 5,000 Ukrainian scholars, scientists, cultural and religious leaders were arrested after being falsely accused of plotting an armed revolt. Those arrested were either shot without a trial or deported to prison camps in remote areas of Russia.
Stalin also imposed the Soviet system of land management known as collectivization. This resulted in the seizure of all privately owned farmlands and livestock, in a country where 80 percent of the people were traditional village farmers. Among those farmers, was a class of people called Kulaks by the Communists. They were formerly wealthy farmers that had owned 24 or more acres, or had employed farm workers. Stalin believed any future insurrection would be led by the Kulaks, thus he proclaimed a policy aimed at “liquidating the Kulaks as a class.”
Declared “enemies of the people,” the Kulaks were left homeless and without a single possession as everything were taken from them, even their pots and pans. It was also forbidden by law for anyone to aid dispossessed Kulak families. Some researchers estimate that ten million persons were thrown out of their homes, put on railroad box cars and deported to “special settlements” in the wilderness of Siberia during this era, with up to a third of them perishing amid the frigid living conditions. Men and older boys, along with childless women and unmarried girls, also became slave-workers in Soviet-run mines and big industrial projects.
Back in the Ukraine, once-proud village farmers were by now reduced to the level of rural factory workers on large collective farms. Anyone refusing to participate in the compulsory collectivization system was simply denounced as a Kulak and deported.
A propaganda campaign was started utilizing eager young Communist activists who spread out among the country folk attempting to shore up the people’s support for the Soviet regime. However, their attempts failed. Despite the propaganda, ongoing coercion and threats, the people continued to resist through acts of rebellion and outright sabotage. They burned their own homes rather than surrender them. They took back their property, tools and farm animals from the collectives, harassed and even assassinated local Soviet authorities. This ultimately put them in direct conflict with the power and authority of Joseph Stalin.
Soviet troops and secret police were rushed in to put down the rebellion. They confronted rowdy farmers by firing warning shots above the their heads. In some cases, however, they fired directly at the people. Stalin’s secret police (GPU, predecessor of the KGB) also went to work waging a campaign of terror designed to break the people’s will. GPU squads systematically attacked and killed uncooperative farmers.
But the resistance continued. The people simply refused to become cogs in the Soviet farm machine and remained stubbornly determined to return to their pre-Soviet farming lifestyle. Some refused to work at all, leaving the wheat and oats to rot in unharvested fields. Once again, they were placing themselves in conflict with Stalin.
In Moscow, Stalin responded to their unyielding defiance by dictating a policy that would deliberately cause mass starvation and result in the deaths of millions.
By mid 1932, nearly 75 percent of the farms in the Ukraine had been forcibly collectivized. On Stalin’s orders, mandatory quotas of foodstuffs to be shipped out to the Soviet Union were drastically increased in August, October and again in January 1933, until there was simply no food remaining to feed the people of the Ukraine.
Much of the hugely abundant wheat crop harvested by the Ukrainians that year was dumped on the foreign market to generate cash to aid Stalin’s Five Year Plan for the modernization of the Soviet Union and also to help finance his massive military buildup. If the wheat had remained in the Ukraine, it was estimated to have been enough to feed all of the people there for up to two years.
Ukrainian Communists urgently appealed to Moscow for a reduction in the grain quotas and also asked for emergency food aid. Stalin responded by denouncing them and rushed in over 100,000 fiercely loyal Russian soldiers to purge the Ukrainian Communist Party. The Soviets then sealed off the borders of the Ukraine, preventing any food from entering, in effect turning the country into a gigantic concentration camp. Soviet police troops inside the Ukraine also went house to house seizing any stored up food, leaving farm families without a morsel. All food was considered to be the “sacred” property of the State. Anyone caught stealing State property, even an ear of corn or stubble of wheat, could be shot or imprisoned for not less than ten years.
Starvation quickly ensued throughout the Ukraine, with the most vulnerable, children and the elderly, first feeling the effects of malnutrition. The once-smiling young faces of children vanished forever amid the constant pain of hunger. It gnawed away at their bellies, which became grossly swollen, while their arms and legs became like sticks as they slowly starved to death.
Mothers in the countryside sometimes tossed their emaciated children onto passing railroad cars traveling toward cities such as Kiev in the hope someone there would take pity. But in the cities, children and adults who had already flocked there from the countryside were dropping dead in the streets, with their bodies carted away in horse-drawn wagons to be dumped in mass graves. Occasionally, people lying on the sidewalk who were thought to be dead, but were actually still alive, were also carted away and buried.
While police and Communist Party officials remained quite well fed, desperate Ukrainians ate leaves off bushes and trees, killed dogs, cats, frogs, mice and birds then cooked them. Others, gone mad with hunger, resorted to cannibalism, with parents sometimes even eating their own children.
Meanwhile, nearby Soviet-controlled granaries were said to be bursting at the seams from huge stocks of ‘reserve’ grain, which had not yet been shipped out of the Ukraine. In some locations, grain and potatoes were piled in the open, protected by barbed wire and armed GPU guards who shot down anyone attempting to take the food. Farm animals, considered necessary for production, were allowed to be fed, while the people living among them had absolutely nothing to eat.
By the spring of 1933, the height of the famine, an estimated 25,000 persons died every day in the Ukraine. Entire villages were perishing. In Europe, America and Canada, persons of Ukrainian descent and others responded to news reports of the famine by sending in food supplies. But Soviet authorities halted all food shipments at the border. It was the official policy of the Soviet Union to deny the existence of a famine and thus to refuse any outside assistance. Anyone claiming that there was in fact a famine was accused of spreading anti-Soviet propaganda. Inside the Soviet Union, a person could be arrested for even using the word ‘famine’ or ‘hunger’ or ‘starvation’ in a sentence.
Cont’d
The Soviets bolstered their famine denial by duping members of the foreign press and international celebrities through carefully staged photo opportunities in the Soviet Union and the Ukraine. The writer George Bernard Shaw, along with a group of British socialites, visited the Soviet Union and came away with a favorable impression, which he disseminated, to the world. Former French Premier Edouard Herriot was given a five-day stage-managed tour of the Ukraine, viewing spruced-up streets in Kiev and inspecting a ‘model’ collective farm. He also came away with a favorable impression and even declared there was indeed no famine.
Back in Moscow, six British engineers working in the Soviet Union were arrested and charged with sabotage, espionage and bribery, and threatened with the death penalty. The sensational show trial that followed was actually a cynical ruse to deflect the attention of foreign journalists from the famine. Journalists were warned they would be shut out of the trial completely if they wrote news stories about the famine. Most of the foreign press corp yielded to the Soviet demand and either didn’t cover the famine or wrote stories sympathetic to the official Soviet propaganda line that it didn’t exist. Among those was Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Walter Duranty of the New York Times who sent one dispatch stating “…all talk of famine now is ridiculous.”
Outside the Soviet Union, governments of the West adopted a passive attitude toward the famine, although most of them had become aware of the true suffering in the Ukraine through confidential diplomatic channels. In November 1933, the United States, under its new president, Franklin D. Roosevelt, even chose to formally recognized Stalin’s Communist government and also negotiated a sweeping new trade agreement. The following year, the pattern of denial in the West culminated with the admission of the Soviet Union into the League of Nations.
Stalin’s Five Year Plan for the modernization of the Soviet Union depended largely on the purchase of massive amounts of manufactured goods and technology from Western nations. Those nations were unwilling to disrupt lucrative trade agreements with the Soviet Union in order to pursue the matter of the famine.
By the end of 1933, nearly 25 percent of the population of the Ukraine, including three million children, had perished. The Kulaks as a class were destroyed and an entire nation of village farmers had been laid low. With his immediate objectives now achieved, Stalin allowed food distribution to resume inside the Ukraine and the famine subsided. However, political persecutions and further round-ups of ‘enemies’ continued unchecked in the years following the famine, interrupted only in June 1941 when Nazi troops stormed into the country. Hitler’s troops, like all previous invaders, arrived in the Ukraine to rob the breadbasket of Europe and simply replaced one reign of terror with another.
From the OU fascist Nazis @: http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/Ukraine_famine.htm
This amendment was going to be added to my last post but something went wrong so I’m putting it as a new post.
[b]
AMENDMENT:
Although I am somewhat disturbed that the author doesn’t seem to have mentioned Getty’s work in one of the relevant sections(I could have just missed it), this document does not seem to be of the usual sensationalist manner and I believe that this author may very well be an objective person seriously in search of the truth. That being said the author also excplicitly said in this DISCLAIMER
“This is a preliminary working paper. Please do not cite it in your own publications without consulting the author.”
This is a paper ABOUT archival research, I will have to compare it’s claims to the copies of other archival works I have at my home computer to determine if any propaganda has slipped in, but I don’t see anything glaring EXCEPT the suggestion that Conquest’s calculations on executions was completely correct- Getty’s well-recognized archival research severly gutted Conquest’s claims, but then again those who know Conquest’s history don’t pay much attention to him anymore. [/b]
Observers should take note that I have deliberately avoided arguing the morality, necessity, or context of Stalinist repressions- which articles like this may often bring up. I think it is still prudent to do so lest this thread run all over the past three centuries.
Nick’s last two posts cite no sources and rely on the conspiracy that the Soviet Union was able to somehow “trick” numerous people into thinking that everything was fine in the Ukraine while there was allegedly widespread famine killing millions. Strange that many visitors to the Soviet Union reported problems with the Soviet system and economy that were told to them by the people in the countries they visited. Never mind that the man who first publicized the famine lied about ever being in Ukraine(Thomas Walker).
Once again people that are ignorant believe they can get on Google and suddenly become an expert on something.
The little boy was doing SO well when he attempted to post the “declassified documents”(which was actually a paper about research on documents)- then he has to screw everything up two posts later. How tragic.
Observers note that he is still repeating the strawman that I accuse all believers in the Ukrainian famine of Fascism or Fascist sympathies. I have repeatedly straightened that out.
5. What were the most important human rights violations committed by Stalin?
Joseph Stalin won a leading role in the Communist Party during Lenin’s failing years, and after a few years of power-sharing he obtained dictatorial powers that exceeded even those of Lenin. In recent years, historians have gradually recognized that Stalin was personally responsible for the murder of more people than any other human being in the 20th century - and probably any other century. Stalin took Lenin’s system of slave labor camps and turned it into a vast secret empire in the depths of Siberia. Lenin chose to let millions starve to death in order to sustain his war effort, but Stalin went further by deliberately engineering famines on an even greater scale. Finally, Stalin crossed the one line that Lenin would not, by ordering the executions of fellow Communists on a massive scale.
* Deaths due to extreme hardship conditions in slave labor camps
Lenin pioneered the slave labor camp, but Stalin expanded it literally a hundredfold. Under Lenin, the inmates numbered fewer than 100,000. By 1930, they numbered 1,000,000. By 1940, the Gulag Archipelago housed fully 10,000,000 pitiful souls. The death rate was extraordinary: 10-30% per year, for the prisoners performed demanding labor such as mining and timber-cutting with minimal food and clothing in freezing temperatures. The slaves were ruled by an elite of secret police, now known as the NKVD. As Robert Conquest describes:
In the vast empty spaces in the north and the Far East, areas as big as fair-sized countries came under complete NKVD control. There were many camps scattered through the Urals, in the Archangel area, and more especially in and around Karaganda and on the new railway being built from Turkestan to Siberia. But in these, the NKVD administered only comparatively small enclaves... The two biggest true colonies of the NKVD empire were the great stretch of northwestern Russia beyond the Kotlas, comprising roughly what is shown on the map as the Komi Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, and the even vaster area of the Far East centered on the gold fields of Kolyma. These regions had, before the NKVD took over, populations of a handful of Russians and a few thousand Arctic tribesmen. A decade later, they held between them something between 1.25 and 2 million prisoners. (The Great Terror)
Who were the prisoners? Before Stalin's collectivization of agriculture, the composition was quite mixed. Anyone who opposed the Communists, from Czarist reactionary to Social Revolutionary, might be consigned to the camps. While almost invariably innocent of any definite action against their government, they were perceived as potential enemies. After 1930, the composition of the camps drastically changed. Suddenly, millions upon millions of peasant families were sentenced to Siberia. Stalin called them "kulaks," or wealthy farmers, though in fact any peasant somehow caught up in resistance to forced collectivization was labeled a "kulak." As the democratic socialist Carl Landauer observes:
Between the persecution of the Armenians by the Turks during the First World War and the extermination of "undesirable" races by Hitler, the Bolshevik campaign against the kulaks and the former bourgeois was probably the only instance in which large masses of men, women, and children were by administrative order dislodged from their places of habitation and brought into camps where many, if not most of them, were sure to perish - and were meant to perish. (European Socialism: A History of Ideas and Movements)
After Stalin crushed peasant resistance, the enormous death rate in the slave labor camps ensured that the number of inmates could not remain steady - unless more and more people were declared enemies of the people and sentenced to Siberia. Stalin claimed to find conspiracies and enemies everywhere. "Kulaks" were blamed for all agricultural failures, while "wreckers" bore responsibility for industrial disasters. Intellectuals, ethnic leaders, and officers in the military became targets. Anyone with contact with foreign countries could be easily declared a spy. Then Stalin began to target fellow Communists, purging them for left deviations, right deviations, treason, and espionage. As Conquest notes, at the 1939 Party Congress, "Of the 1,966 delegates to the [1934] Congress, 1,108 had been arrested for counter-revolutionary crimes." (The Great Terror) Sentences to Siberia were their typical fate. Foreign Communists living in the USSR, especially foreign Communists from non-democratic countries, almost invariably wound up in Siberia. Even the NKVD itself was purged, so that the secret policeman of today might be the inmate of tomorrow.
After Stalin was satisfied with the composition of the Communist Party, new waves of victims arose. Millions of Poles were sent to slave labor camps in 1939 when Stalin and Hitler divided Poland. In 1940, Stalin annexed the Baltic states and sent 2-4% of their populations to the slave camps. During World War II, any ethnicity deemed disloyal was likely to be deported en masse: ethnic Germans - including the Volga Germans who had lived in Russia for centuries - were deported to Siberia, along with Chechens, Crimean Tatars, and other nationalities. With the end of World War II, the prison population was replenished not only with German POWs, and German civilians (including ethnic Germans scattered across Europe), but with Soviet POWs. Stalin considered captured Soviet soldiers to be traitors, so they had the opportunity to perform slave labor for Stalin as well as Hitler.
Stalin's slave empire lasted so long and went through so many waves of victims that one is left speechless. So many millions perished within the Gulag Archipelago for so many reasons, or for no reason. With a minimum of 5,000,000 slave laborers from 1931 to 1950, and a minimum death toll of 10% per year - both improbably low figures - one can conclude that Stalin's camps claimed a minimum of 10,000,000 victims, and easily two or three times as many.
* Deaths due to man-made famine.
Lenin knew that his agricultural policies might cause widespread famine, but implemented them anyway. Stalin went further. Not only did he know that his policies would cause widespread famine; he turned famine into a political weapon by deliberately and selectively amplifying its horrors. Lenin nominally gave peasants the title to their land, while effectively expropriating them by forcing them to sell their crops for a pittance. Stalin went further by ordering the forced collectivization of agriculture. The peasants lost their land and became employees of the state; moreover, they had to obtain government permission to quit their jobs, which was often impossible to obtain. State-owned serf plantations had returned to Russia after a 70-year lapse.Naturally, reducing landed free peasants to serfs required massive application of government force. Wealthy, prominent, or recalcitrant peasants were dubbed “kulaks” and deported to Siberia. Still the peasants resisted; food production drastically declined, farm animals were slaughtered, and surplus grain ferreted away. In 1930, the peasants’ reaction to forced collectivization was so extreme that even Stalin backed away. But this was only a tactical retreat, and by 1934 90% of sown acreage in the USSR was owned by collective (i.e., government) farms.
Food production of all kinds drastically declined. Slave labor in the fields proved far less efficient than free labor; the harvest of grain and other crops shrank. The herds of livestock often declined by 50% or more by either slaughter before collectivization, or neglect after collectivization. But Stalin was not interested in total food production, but in how much food he could squeeze out of the peasants without compensation. The collective farms were ordered to surrender their quota of food to the state, under severe penalty. As Conquest explains, "The basic principle was that a certain amount of grain must be delivered to the state regardless, and that this demand must be satisfied before the needs of the peasantry could be taken into consideration. A law of 16 October 1931 forbade reserving grain for internal kolkhoz [collective farm] needs until the procurement plan was fulfilled." (The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine) If production declined, it could be taken out of the hides of the peasants. This was precisely what Stalin had in mind.
From the outset, the quotas set for delivery were far too high, especially considering the decline in total production. As the peasants began to face severe hunger, in 1932, one might have expected the quotas to be reduced - especially since Stalin actually had grain to export. But instead, in early 1933 Stalin demanded still more food from the desperate peasantry. Yet his exactions were uneven: they were particularly inhuman for the Ukraine, Don, Kuban, and lower Volga - regions where popular sentiment against Communist oppression and Russification was strong. As Conquest notes, "Nor is it the case that the famine, or the excessive grain targets, were imposed on the most productive grain-producing areas as such, as a - mistaken or vicious - economic policy merely. There was no famine in the rich Russian 'Central Agricultural Region'; and on the other hand the grain-poor Ukrainian provinces of Volhynia and Podilia suffered along with the rest of the country." (The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine)
All of the facts point to a deliberate effort to use starvation as a tool of genocide. Seed grain in 1932 in the Ukraine was for the first time taken from the peasants and stored in urban granaries: officials realized that once starvation set in the peasants would try to eat the seed grain. The Ukrainian-Russian border was carefully guarded to keep Russian grain out of the famine-stricken Ukraine and starving Ukrainians out of Russia. Government grain stockpiles were available, but unused.
This mixture of ruthless methods resulted in the starvation deaths of about 7 million people: 5 million in the Ukraine, 1 million in the North Caucasus region, and 1 million elsewhere. On top of this, a similar collectivization campaign carried out against the nomads of Kazahkstan led to 1 million further deaths.
The famine in 1933 was the worst under Stalin's rule, but not the last. Famines swept Eastern Europe and the USSR again after World War II, although here the Nazis bore part of the blame. Stalin also shares responsibility for the deaths - again mostly through hunger - of ethnic Germans expelled from Eastern Europe with the Red Army's advance. The Communist-dominated governments of Poland and Czechoslovakia shared with Stalin the blame for some 2 million unnatural deaths of ethnic Germans. (see Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944- 1950)
* Executions
On April 7, 1935, Stalin issued a decree authorizing the death penalty for children as young as 12 years old. While far more of Stalin's subjects died in slave labor camps and man-made famines than from execution, even here the numbers are startling. There were approximately one million executions during the Great Terror of 1936-1939, and probably over five million for his entire reign. The executed were often Stalin's opponents within the Party, or his less eager friends, or foreign Communists. Large numbers of officers were executed. Polish POWs taken in 1939 were executed en masse in Katyn and elsewhere. Almost all of Stalin's comrades in the Russian Civil War were executed or assassinated at his orders: Trotsky, Zinoviev, Bukharin, Kamenev, Rykov, Tomsky, and (as recent discoveries confirm) Kirov. Many of these were tortured, bullied, and threatened into condemning themselves in the so-called "show trials," where they absurdly confessed to large-scale espionage and subversion. The poetic justice of the trials of Stalin's ex-comrades is palpable, since a Nuremberg-style trial of the Communist leadership for crimes against humanity would have condemned most of them to death. So numerous were Stalin's victims that amongst the oceans of innocents executed, justice occasionally accidentally descended upon the guilty.
[i]Hey Jasa, I helped you fiind some atrocities committed by Stalin.
Ohhhh! You’re welcome! 
[/i]
LOL Once again, Jasa provides the cherry-picked rantings of a Canadian author with no formal education and historical training as the basis for his beliefs, whereas I have “Googled” major Human Rights organization with no bias that also condemns Western gov’ts, such as my own. I have also provided sources from the GMU History department, one of the most respected American universities.
BTW, I attended GMU, so I didn’t need to “Google” anything. Where did you go to school again Jasa?
Communists are ignorant inhuman rationalizers of mass-murder!