Why are you worried?
I answer honestly, but promise not to take it personally. Nothing against anyone.
I’m worried bacause I’m able to count. This Forum has got 611 members, most of them inactive and only 122 active ones.
If between 122 people from many countries, I can see four specimens like you, Sturmfurer, Chevan and finally “icing on the cake” - bizarre Jasa, it is serious reason to worry.
It is vacation time in Europe and I’m afraid your ranks will grow in Autumn.
I know that you don’t and will not understand anything, but please realise that for me and many other members it is reallly difficult to meet people which follow your strange mixture of stalinism and red/brown socialism sprinkled with a bit of paranoia. It is nearly impossible in Australia.
As I said, I voiced my opinion about political views openly expressed here and don’t hold any personal grudges.
Cheers,
Lancer44
No, you need to present evidence.
Nope. Much different.
Why? I don’t live there anymore and furthermore freedom of speech is more or less useless except to those who can afford to disseminate their “speech” in a significant fashion.
No I didn’t, but I know plenty of people that lived for decades under those regimes. Somehow they got by.
You SHOULD be worried about the future of Europe.
Here’s what you should worry about:
-
Massive non-European immigration, spurred on by economic factors and the capitalist system.
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Forced sex-slavery and women trafficking, partiuclarly Eastern European women, including, POLES and ROMANIANS(particularly Romanians; see Viktor Malarek’s The Natashas).
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Declining birthrates
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Widescale privatization
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Interventionalist wars around the world.
THAT is what you should worry about.
Anyway, there’s a difference which doesn’t allow Russian society to develop.
You’re absolutely right.
Right, but we got to remeber what was the true reason of developement of heavy industry in Soviet Union. Not a self-defence.
Don’t try to make me believe that only oficially sentenced to death were murdered in SU. Please, we are not kids here.
False.
So why was KGB forced to steal hi-tech in the West?
Soviet factiories were able to produce only heavy tanks etc.
How competitive was SU’s IT industry when compared to Japan or U.S.?
That’s why Soviet Union had lost Cold War. Because it was technologically underdeveloped.
Creation of homo-sovieticus was one of the greatest tragedies in russian history. It started long before Yeltsin.
Regarding to cultural degradation - so called real socialism in art, film, etc.
The great potential of a nation was almost totally wiped out for over 70 years.
And please, don’t try to prove that “real socialism” has something in common with true art.
And what about the cult of Stalin? 
What positive influence it had on morality and culture of russian society?
When I wrote about “nothing to ruin” I meant a economic potential of Soviet Union. Not the material goods, because it’s unquestionable that some of them had great worth.
The fact is that your economy was ruined and had not a single chance for competition with western states.
I’m sorry, don’t have a time to answer rest of the questions. I’ll try later.
That’s right … “Somehow they got by”…
And you Jasa don’t have any idea how they did it.
I have a feeling that you would not survive… nor get by.
You or rather your political beliefs are too bizarre to render you to be either party official in communist time or oppositionist in the same time.
You don’t understand that communism was essentially monstrous corruption flung far away from any real life of ordinary people. This corruption started right in 1917 and grew enormously in Lenin and Stalin era, to surface and degenerate into petty meddling called socialist evolution in, what you call “decline” during Kruschev, Breznhev eras.
And you would just simply perish without a trace in this maze…
Mate, I can’t give you even a single year in any of ex-communist countries, doesn’t matter, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, USSR… no way…
In DDR you would not last six month…
I hope Moderators and Members of the Forum will forgive me personal approach to this post but I believe that it is impossible to go around it.
I’m remaining friendly to Jasa - I just expressed my opinion about his … ehm… opinions…
OFF TOPIC - sorry, but essential to understand meritum of this dispute…
Can you tell us how old you are?
How often you visited Ukraine?
Cheers,
Lancer44
Edited to change spelling and moderate one sentence.
The fact that we oppose you about your black vision of USSR does not mean alone that we are stalinists or brown socialists (wtf? did anyone here said something praising fascism?) You blame USSR in every crime you can imagine and then find it difficult to understand why we are defending it. And talking about paranoia - what made you say that? It is you and your colleagues who talk about empire of evil which wanted to enslave the world and such stuff. There exactly same propaganda against Russia as it was against USSR, it was just ‘Russia’ in western newspapers during Cold War. Open NY Times, Wall Street Journal today - nothing has changed. Even authors sometimes are the same. The same people who planned nuclear attack plans against USSR like “Rainbow” or “Dropshot” are currently rule US. The hate is the same. So it’s not surprising Russians dislike anti-USSR propaganda as they dislike anti-Russia propaganda. Most russians in 90 were thinking that US and other democratic countries are friends. Realization of truth was grim.
Anyway, there’s a difference which doesn’t allow Russian society to develop.
To develop what? To become another war-mongering democratic country like USA? No, thanks. To become another quiet european democratic country? Not gonna happen. Liberal democracy is not the only way, and only tenth of world population thinks it is or just live in such country. The fun thing is - the real victor in Cold War was China. What is democratic or liberal in China? Nothing. Yet it’s growth of power is astonishing. It’s laughable when some politician or just journalist begins to teach Russia how it MUST develop democracy. Russia will develop any kind of democracy or not democracy as it wants.
Right, but we got to remeber what was the true reason of developement of heavy industry in Soviet Union. Not a self-defence.
I see what you mean, but it’s like calling the true reason of development the invasion to Mars. In fact it was not only question of self-defence, it was question of survival. I dislike conspiracy theories of any kind in any country, and idea of USSR world conquest is meanest of them all.
Don’t try to make me believe that only oficially sentenced to death were murdered in SU. Please, we are not kids here.
Then you are up to imagination. Choose any number of “unofficially murdered” you like, it only cant exceed the population of USSR:rolleyes:
False.
So why was KGB forced to steal hi-tech in the West?
Soviet factiories were able to produce only heavy tanks etc.
How competitive was SU’s IT industry when compared to Japan or U.S.?
That’s why Soviet Union had lost Cold War. Because it was technologically underdeveloped.
You mean that rocket industry for example isn’t high-tech?
The reasons of USSR losing Cold War are many, and most of them economical and political. Technological underdevelopment was in computers field and it was felt during 80s only. Too little reason to loose Cold War.
Creation of homo-sovieticus was one of the greatest tragedies in russian history. It started long before Yeltsin.
Regarding to cultural degradation - so called real socialism in art, film, etc.
The great potential of a nation was almost totally wiped out for over 70 years.
And please, don’t try to prove that “real socialism” has something in common with true art.
And what about the cult of Stalin?
What positive influence it had on morality and culture of russian society?When I wrote about “nothing to ruin” I meant a economic potential of Soviet Union. Not the material goods, because it’s unquestionable that some of them had great worth.
The fact is that your economy was ruined and had not a single chance for competition with western states.
I don’t really understand what you mean by homo-sovieticus and why it was a greatest tragedy. Art direction in USSR was ‘socrealism’. It’s preference of an individual what kind of art he likes, for me it’s far better than triangles and rectangles of cubism and such, although i like impressionism. Anyway, i won’t call socrealism death of true art or something.
Cult of Stalin. There was a cult of his personality, but there was personality itself. I don’t think there was impact on morale, cult of personality was like adoration of monarch or so.
Not had any chance of competition - USSR almost alone competed with capitalist world and survived 73 years. Will for example Israel survive against arab world for such time, even with enormous help from USA? Ask jews about is it easy or not:)
And how exactly Jasa would ‘perish’ in a year or half-year? What would be done to him?
Clearly you don’t either.
Let’s see, dirt cheap rent, free health care, free education to university level, secure jobs- I would fare a lot better than I did in the US.
How is a follower of Marxist-Leninism too bizarre in a Marxist-Leninist state?
Damn, if only there was some PROOF of that- and if only there wasn’t so much raw data and documentary evidence to the contrary!!!
What, like all those homeless people in Eastern Europe now?
Wow, then how did those MILLIONS OF PEOPLE SOMEHOW MAKE IT THROUGH? And why have so many DIED or fled their countries AFTER IT FELL?
Do you even LIVE in Poland? Would you even live in Poland? Or are you just going to cheer for capitalism while not facing what it has done to your country?
What difference?
Excuse me? The true reason was specifically self-defense. In case you didn’t notice, about 14 different powers invaded the Soviet Union after its birth, and then, EXACTLY as Stalin predicted, almost down to the YEAR- Nazi Germany and her allies invaded the USSR with the intent of driving all Slavs there behind the Urals.
If you want to believe that, fine. But here’s the problem- you have no proof of those who were not sentenced to death. This is why they couldn’t say at the Nuremburg Trials: “Well, we can get you for about 11 million people(including non-Jews here), but I bet you probably killed another 7 million at Auchwitz and just covered it up!”
Really? And I guess the oligarchs are SO much better?
What the HELL are you talking about? Were you not aware of Russia’s condition in 1917? Stalin turned the USSR into an international power in just ten years- FROM A COUNTRY THAT WAS 50 TO 100 YEARS BEHIND!
Oh and when is that “cultural renaissance” supposed to happen now that Communism is no longer in Europe? Why is it late?
Stalin got credit for what he deserves. That is why he is still popular today with people of all ages while “liberators” like Yeltsin and Gorbachev are despised as the traitors and theives that they are.
Right, because Eastern European society is FAR more moral now right? If I am not mistaken didn’t the Pope have to VISIT Poland in the mid-nineties to remind them that CATHOLICS AREN’T SUPPOSED TO BE HAVING SO MANY ABORTIONS? So much for that freedom of religion.
It was ruined deliberately in order to strengthen the capitalists. Then it REALLY collapsed when capitalism took over. Other than that it clearly WAS competing with Western States before.
Sneaksie is right- this isn’t about Communism anyway. It is about Russia and only Russia; nothing has changed. There was no peace after the Cold War; America and the West went on the offensive and started forcing countries to do what they want. Russia is constantly criticized for not being “democratic enough”. Democratic for whom? Which people? The Western businessmen and tourists? The Russian businessmen? Or what about…GASP! the Russian people as a whole?
Ethnic nationalism is still alive and well in Europe despite the fact that capitalists are still flooding their own countries with foreign immigrants.
I recognize here IRONMAN’s style.
Correction: Victor Malarek, who is of Ukrainian descent, has been a journalist for more than thirty years and currently works as a reporter for CTV Television in Canada.
They are women and girls, some as young as 12, from all over the Eastern bloc, where sinister networks of organized crime have become entrenched in the aftermath of the collapse of Communist regimes. In Israel, they’re called Natashas, whether they’re actually from Russia, Bosnia, the Czech Republic, or Ukraine, no matter what their real names may be.
Ukraine’s view in the early stages of the trafficking problem in the post-Soviet era was largely that the problem was not its responsibility. The women were, after all, living abroad. Although Ukraine has adopted anti-trafficking legislation, the law has yielded few arrests and even fewer penalties for those convicted. Ukrainian NGO La Strada had complained that the punishments meted out for those convicted were regarded as little more than slaps on the wrist. To be fair, most of the new (13-year-old post-Soviet) governments are faced with nearly insurmountable economic, social and health problems, such as the HIV/AIDS crisis, and trafficking may not be at the top of their list of matters to address (although this is no excuse for tolerating abusive behavior). To be honest, the attitudes in these countries are more often than not that the women would not be found in the slavery-like conditions if they had not “asked for it.”
Mr. Malarek has given the rights for translation and publication in Ukraine in order to make the book available for free in that country. He hopes that his book will act as a wake up call to the plight of the trafficked and abused victims, and to the pervasive hypocrisy surrounding the feeble attempts to address their needs.
Mate, Poland is in the European Union. Romania will join European Union on 1st of January 2007. Mainly this is a problem of Russia (see “do you want a Russian bride? call …”). Ukraine and all former Soviet Republics. Central and European countries have found their way to prosperity. On the other hand in whole Central and Eastern Europe you’ll never find so many billionaries like in Russia…
I suspect that you agree 100% with Vladimir Jirinovski, isn’t it?
Just read the posts more carefully.
Be advised that I don’t defend nor justify present situation in Russia and people who are responsible for it.
I’m just trying to say that Lenin, Stalin and their friend are the worst what could ever happend to Russia. But apparently you see it in a different way. Ok, it’s your choice.
Come on! Why do you always avoid answer when you are asked a difficult question???
Hi everybody.
I see gentlemens, our discussion acquire pure political sense.
Why not?
I don’t wish to defend communism (as some of you think). It’s pointless.
But i think Jasa touched very interesting theme about social equality.
I excellently know that this problem has in all Eastern Europeans countries ( Russia too). The problem of “wild capitalism” actualy almost of all ours countries.
I just smile when Dani wrote
Poland is in the European Union. Romania will join European Union on 1st of January 2007. Mainly this is a problem of Russia (see “do you want a Russian bride? call …”). Ukraine and all former Soviet Republics. Central and European countries have found their way to prosperity. …
I just want to note you some “stages of prosperity”. On example of Poland.
Josef Stiglitz , main economist of WORLD BANK wrote
http://www.dcz.gov.ua/control/ru/publish/article/main?art_id=30109519&cat_id=10452390
The level of unemployment in Poland exceeded all economic and publicly permissible standards, which act in the civilized countries. The official level of unemployment at the end of 2003 exceeded 19%. It was 2,5 times higher than average index in the countries THE EUROPEAN UNION. The level of teenage unemployment exceeded 40%, prolonged unemployment - 9% (in THE EUROPEAN UNION - 1,9%, in THE USA - 0,7%). The concealed unemployment, especially in the village, envelopped 0,8-1,0 mln. people. However, Polish problems are not contained by the high level of unemployment. At the end of 2003 the number of persons of working age (man of -18-64 years, woman - 18-59) composed 24 mln., and the number of workers - only 12,6 million. This means that of 24 mln. people of the working age of 11,4 mln. they were professional passive, and if we still consider the inoperative students, it is possible to speak about 10 mln. professionally passive persons. In 1990 - 2004 a quantity of those occupied in the national economy was reduced almost on 5 millions. In the corresponding period the number of persons of working age grew by 2,3 millions. These processes lead to such level of the professional passiveness of society, which was not encountered in other countries.
…Summary scarcity in the foreign economic revolutions in 1992-2003 composed $143,9 billion. The external debt of Poland (state and quotient) reached at the end of 2003. $105,8 billion. and it increased since the beginning of the market transformation to $78 billion, mainly as a result of the scarcity in the external revolutions. Only 45% of scarcity (approximately $65 billion.) it was “compensated” due to the direct foreign investments. From Poland it was “sucked out” capital for the sum approximately $80 of billion
another information
…After Poland ceased to be socialist, the West, in contrast to Russia it copied in 1992 50% of the external indebtedness of Poland (on the political motives). As a result the external debt of Poland was reduced from 30 to 15 billion dollars. From Poland they wanted to make an example for Russia, Ukraine and Belorussia.
Alas, an example proved to be clearly unsuccessful…
In the years of liberal reforms the external debt of Poland increased SEVEN and it leaves today more than 100 billion dollars…Many prominent Polish economists warned that strategy of reforms, based on the implementation of recommendations OF THE IMF (INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND), leads to “Latin american” of the country, sliding down to the periphery of the world economy, the sharp growth of social disproportions. Import grew since 1990 5 (it covers third of domestic consumption), and export - only 2 times. If is earlier trade, in essence “shuttle”, with the eastern neighbors it gave 5–7 billion dollars for the partial compensation for the scarcity of trade with the West, then Polish authorities, being guided by rusofobiyey as the state policy, send to the displacement of connections with the east. In 4 years the number of unemployed grew by million, the profitability of enterprises approached zero. At the same time the West took under the control more than 70 percent of Polish bank capital…
…Poland survives the crisis of confidence to the authority. They consider according to the interrogations of public opinion, 82 percent of Poles that the fate of simple people does not interest politicians, 80 - that the policy they worry about its own interests, and not about the good of state, 76 percent - that the policy are dishonest and the like.
So gentlemens, you can see the situation of “complete prosperity” in Poland.
Why does mister Lancer not hurry returned from Australia to homeland ? :-)))))
P.S. Next time I can talk to you about the “political independence” of Poland today
Mister Lancers chosen place is Australia because of weather here.
I hate cold.
Lancer44
OK, my joke
Lancer, If Poland for you is too cold, as you can consider yourself as the Pole?
First of all I KNOW Viktor Malarek is not Romanian- It’s pretty obvious by the name. What I was pointing out is how he writes extensively on the conditions faced by Romanian trafficked women who are often acquired much more violently than those in Russia or Ukraine which are usually tricked and kidnapped outside of the country.
You actually believe that the EU is going to bring you prosperity? It doesn’t bring prosperity. Western Europe BENEFITS from a poor Eastern Europe; I see it here in Czech Republic. The idea that Brussels gives a DAMN about the plight of Eastern European women is just hilarious given their history of evasion on this issue. Countries like Germany and Netherlands use the moral coward’s tactic of saying that they don’t care about trafficked women since the crimes occured outside of their respective countries.
If the “worst” thing is doubling the life expectancy, industrializing the country to the point of being a world superpower, and bringing literacy, healthcare, and education to a country that was the most backward of Europe prior- I’d hate to see what the “best thing” is!
How did I do that?
But have ever thought that “doubling the life expectancy, industrializing the country to the point of being a world superpower, and bringing literacy, healthcare, and education to a country that was the most backward of Europe” could happen without all the genocide and tragedies that took place?
We had same discussion in Poland. Some people were proud of 50 years of communism because the Reds brought electricity, education, heavy industry etc. But was was the price? Tens of thounsands slaughtered like animals, much more sentenced for prison, terror, etc. After decades it turned out that the heavy industry is causing terrible pollution and is technologically underdeveloped, education means almost nothing and doesn’t ensure you a good job…
And what is worse, that feeling that you are a prisoner in your own homeland.
All good this that happen, could happen WITHOUT a single communist.
I asked a question regarding to cult of Stalin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovalski
“What positive influence it had on morality and culture of russian society?”
And your answer was:
Were is the logical connection between the question and answer?