USSR and the Communist ideology - a debate

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#41

A. Why would it happen? The Tsarist state was on the verge of collapse, Russia could very well have become a colony like China because of its weakness.

B. There is no proof of “genocide”.

C. The idea that such a revolution would take place peacefully or that it wouldn’t lead to massive struggle is simply looney.

Still far less than those killed by the Nazis, and less than the amount who left Poland in the dust to become cab drivers in the West.

And capitalism is going to fix that?

Seems like a lot of people feel Poland is some kind of prison now- and they have been escaping ever since.

The “cult of Stalin” is mostly Khruschev’s invention so the question is faulty.

To be honest, I LIKE the new direction Poland is moving in with regards to securing its culture against the decadence of Western capitalism. However, Poland will not be able to withstand it very long. Capitalism will ensure that the wealthy in Poland will inevitably betray the cultural beliefs of the Polish majority in favor of more profit. Degeneracy is profitable, cultural values and discipline is not. Ergo under capitalism this is the inevitable course.

#42

You are misinformed. Read the book.

Of course mate! Nobody gives you prosperity. Romanians have understood that and they work hard to achieve it.

I really don’t know what you wanted to see in Czech Republic. I don’t know the situation of Poland or other Central/East European countries. For Romania both parties gained and gains.
European, American, Japanese investors came in Romania and bought or set up factories or other investments (Renault, Bell Helicopters, Continental, Michelin, Alcatel, Microsoft, YKK, etc etc). The unemployment rate is 5.5%. There are also hundreds of thousands of Romanians working legally in Spain and Italy in qualified jobs.
Moreover, this year, in a clothing factory, the owner brought from China 120 Chinese women to work in his factory in Romania. Why? Because are much much cheaper as working force as Romanians.

As for retail:

30/01/2006 - [FONT=arial][SIZE=2]Carrefour has revealed it’s Romanian sales shot up by 64 per cent last year following a consumer lending boom and extra income created through the new flat tax system.

According to reports in the Romanian press the massive increase in sales makes Carrefour Romania’s second largest retailer, second to market leader German Metro Group.
The performance meant that Carrefour’s Hyparlo hypermarkets achieved a total sales figure of €435million and took Metro’s sales past the €1billion mark. Officials claim the growth will be maintained over the next few years.[/FONT][/SIZE]

Source: http://www.foodanddrinkeurope.com/news/ng.asp?n=65457-carrefour-romania-hypermarkets
So really there is no need for Romanian women to search their prosperity abroad and to end trafficked.
End of story!

Now back on topic, I only hope that Russia, Ukraine and Belarus will find their ways to prosperity.

#43

Nonsense my friend. This proves that you either don’t have a clue about history as it was or you don’t want to learn about.

#44

I have the book. I wouldn’t have mentioned it if I hadn’t.

What they don’t understand is the massive advantages that the EU gets from being able to exploit a poor Eastern Europe. For example; prosperity has arrived in the Czech Republic because of foreign investments. Yet as is expected by everyone here- once CR gets on the Euro, those factories will pack up and go to Asia.

Again, guess what happens when, and if, Romania gets on the Euro. GOODBYE MANUFACTURING JOBS!!

Thanks for proving my point about capitalism messing up cultural and ethnic make-up.

Then what are all those trafficked Romanian women doing here in Western Europe?

[/QUOTE]

We will find it the same way we did in 1917, only this time doing things the right way instead of Khruschev’s way.

#45

No, I just know the difference between verifiable history and the rantings of people like Trotsky or Khruschev.

#46

Where “here” in the Western Europe did you see trafficked Romanian women?

Again, guess what happens when, and if, Romania gets on the Euro. GOODBYE MANUFACTURING JOBS!!

Dreams mate. Says who? You? Why don’t you write some books in order to fulfill the Nobel Prize for economy requirements?:wink:

Edited: By the way, I forgot to tell you that in Romania the education is free.

#47

So, maybe you didn’t understand what is about. Then how you’ll describe a cult of personality? No names so far.

I only assumed that you read Karl Marx and you’ll be able to define the term.

Edited: It’s so funny that our Russian friends suddenly decided to appointed you as their speaker.
In a way your theoretical answers are irrelevant as far as you didn’t live in a Communist regime.

#48

Reading some posts in this debate I have a feeling that I’m in a lunatic asylum.
In my opinion this thread may be detrimental to the reputation of this forum.
Every dispute must have some boundaries.

Say, astronomers have many conflicting points and they discuss things fiercely. But please imagine what they would say if one of them suddenly put up theory that “earth is flat like a pizza and sits on the backs of four elephants”.
Theories of one participant of this discussion are just equally childish.

Lancer44

#49
  1. There is no evidence that Stalin “killed millions of people”.

I think that this kind of revisionism is in line with the holocaust deniers.

Honestly it did not surprize me, I recently heard that Che Guevara was an “humanist” …ha,ha.

#50

Prague, and outside of Prague. Viktor Malarek documented this extensively.

Says history and many of the factory workers here, who are my students.

Was it free before socialism? And to what level?

#51

False analogy.

#52

The difference is that Holocaust revisionism is OPPOSED by demographics, documentary evidence, and eyewitness accounts.

The reality of the Stalinist era is confirmed by documentary and demographic evidence.

#53

Jasa,
I am 49. My father was in the polish army in 1939. (Born 1921) He was caught by NKVD when tried to get over San river which, (now nearly in the middle of Poland), was then “friendship border” between nazi Germany and soviet Russia.
He get 10 years of hard labor just for the simple fact that he wanted to go back home. He spent the rest of 1939 and 6 month of 1940 in jails - Przemysl, Lvov, Odessa. From July 1940 in various Gulag camps in Usa and Ussusa area. (don’t know right spelling). He told me that in winter from 1940 to 1941 he saw:

  1. Camp which froze alltogether - 1500 prisoners, guards, dogs, everything.
  2. From his transport, (to this frozen camp), of 1400 prisoners of various nationalities, including Russians, 360 survived and seen spring of 1941.

This is just one witness account which I can believe blindly - he was my father.
I heard perhaps two hundred “confessions” which were the same or much worse.
(The fate of civilians, Russian kids, (“biezprizornyye”), was often worse.
Out of those two hundred nights which I spent talking to people which survived Stalin’s Russia, was perhaps 25% which said they get out in 1955 -56.

So do not try to push your fairy tales on this Forum.
Here, as you perhaps noticed, are people from many other countries. They heard stories, read stories, they lived through later parts of communism regime and they are vaccinated forever for this kind of bull…t.

What you said about evidence indicates that you are reading stalinist era Census Books…
Are you… ehm… not certified?

Lancer44

#54

Why are the communist Nonces who appear on here from time to time not dealt with in exactly the same way as the Nazi Nonces?

Every word that Jasa has written has sickened me.

As for the “economic miracle”, you may wish to know that under mechanised collective farms in 1953, less grain was produced than on peasant small holdings in 1913. Surprised? So was Kruschev.

And as for the millions of murders, deaths in camp, disappearances etc, it’s all perfectly well documented in the now open archives.

Denying this is to say that black is white.

#55

[quote=“Jasa”]

Prague, and outside of Prague. Viktor Malarek documented this extensively.[/quote]
My bold.:smiley:

I’ll reply to this off-topic post not to comment your false information but to comment your logic.
a)Since when Prague is in Western Europe?:wink:
b)You just told us that the former Central and East European countries (including Czech Republic and Romania) were poor…
Suddenly you “discovered” that trafficked Romanian women have been seen in Prague and outside of Prague (the capital of the Czech Republic). Mate, don’t mess with your arguments! Decide: were and is Czech Republic poor? If yes, what the heck are you talking about?:smiley: :smiley:

This is my last off-topic here. I will ask you to follow the topic.

#56

That’s a point! I think we should reconsider the rules of this forum.

#57

Chevan, Sneaksie, do you want to add anything?

#58

What do you mean by ‘appointed as speaker’? Jasa has his own opinion, i assure you. I several times wrote about my opinion about Stalin and i don’t see a reason to repeat.

To summarize, ‘anticommunists’ here just keep telling about killing millions of people and so on. It would make no difference what me or anyone would post about industrialization, development of USSR, defeat of fascism, science and industrial boom which eventually led to first man in space, difference between being backward country in early 1900s and one of two world superpowers, anything - you would just keep talking about purges and such. So what’s the point? How can i tell you about gradations of grey if everything in your imagination is 100% white or 100% black?

That’s a point! I think we should reconsider the rules of this forum.

Then just change the first rule to ‘USSR is guilty in everything’ and everybody would understand what to expect here.

#59

It was such an industrial wonder that there were shortages of basic consumer goods (food, soap, etc) right up until the end.

It was great at producing large quantities of badly made weapons, but you can’t eat an AK-47 or wash yourself with a T72.

And don’t get me started on internal passports, registering with the police when you visit someone in another town for more than three days, the guard towers on the borders facing inwards, no freedom to leave, etc etc etc

#60

USSR and the Communist Ideology.

Guys, thats the topic here. I have just read back through every posts here after reading Man of Stoats post.

I am impartial on this one, however there are a few groundrules you must all respect here before continuing your debate.

  1. Please do not insult your fellow debaters here. Some of you are coming close to losing control.

  2. Please stick to the topic, I know sometimes you can stray from it but if you want to discuss the traffiking of women etc, open another topic. I fail to see what this has to do with the USSR or communism except in the aftermath.

I also think that a lot of the posters here should remember that most countries in the EU are socialist in outlook and practices, have a bit from both systems and are not just voracious capatalists.

So to kick-start the debate again, can someone tell me what was the ideolagy of the communists in 1917 and were the great plans for communism realised or were the Tsars simply replaced by another social elite, the members of the Communist Party?