USSR and the Communist ideology - a debate

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#121

I do not deny violence above the peasants. Yes, the victims of dekulakization became many peasant families.
http://stalinism.newmail.ru/kulak.htm

In all for the years 1930 and 1931, as it is indicated in the information of division on the special-migrants of gulag OGPU the “information about the evicted kulaks in 1930-1931”, it was sent for the special-settling of 381 026 families by the total number of 1 803 392 people.
… but on the place of residence were registered only 1 421 380 . Where did disappear the difference into 382 012 people?
Documentary given on this score found thus far could not be. However, to completely erroneously assume that all these people died.
First, many of them escaped from the places of settling. As we will see below, up to 1937 inclusively the number of those run constantly exceeded the number of dead persons in the reference, moreover considerably it exceeded. It is reasonable to assume that if in 1932 ran into two and the more of times more cams, than it died, then the same picture was observed also in 1930-1931 yr… after this active search of fugitives usually it was not conducted. For example, in the Arkhangyelsk province the commandants of special-settling declared their search only in such a case, when by them it randomly was possible to learn, where those run live. As the management of the division of working settlings of the gulag THE NKVD OF THE USSR during February 1939 in the report noted:
"using weakening regime, many peoples departed from special-settling, penetrated to the plants of defense value, power stations and other enterprises in the boundary, provincial centers and different cities. The removal of them from there and settlement in trudposelki meets difficulties in connection with the fact that they work at these enterprises the number of years, they acquired qualification, many knew how to obtain passport, they entered the marriage with other workers and employees and acquired in a number of cases by their houses and economy "

I agree that 1.5 million migrants for 80 millionth peasant populations OF THE USSR into 1930 - this is many. About 150 000 people perished as a result of forced migration.
But I don’t see the reasons to talk about “millions …shot or deported”.

Forced collectivisation led to famine. Fact. Its immediate effect was to reduce grain production and almost half livestock production

Not in much regions OF THE USSR collectivization led to the hunger. It was noted on Ukranine (1932-33) and some of the Volga Region .
Moreover already at the end of 1936 was observed a considerable increase in the production and already no one thought about the hunger.

But it’s of course don’t mean that i protetect the communism ideology. I hate the bolsheviks with its crazy idea of “World proletariat revolution”. They really killed in 1918-1921 millions of peoples.

Cheers.

#122

LOL
There are some cute little facts about Solzhenitsyn fellow. For example, his arrest was provocated by himself - he wrote a letter to his ‘friends’ in which he wrote insults about Stalin. In that time he was RA officer and he 100% knowed that officer’s and soldier’s letters are censored (as in any fighting army of that time), he was not an naive child as you may think. He did it on purpose to harm that his ‘friends’ (or should we say ‘enemies’?). During investigation he eagerly accused all these his ‘friends’ in numerous crimes, he even slandered his own wife. One of his ‘friends’ got 10 years for nothing (well, not for nothing, for being stupid enough to think that Solzh is his friend), while our hero was sentenced to 8. In camp he eagerly cooperated with prison authorities to get better treatment, etc.
In 1999, as i recall, he did another thing fitting to his personality.
He wrote the book where he accused jews in Russia’s failures during last 300 years. Hello Dr. Goebbels!

#123

please:

…Trying to understand “comrades”, do not use your exemplary logic and wit. It doesn’t work… They are beyond comprehension!

I understand you hint to me as “comrades”. Or maybe do you mean Dani or somebody else? Who are beyond comprehension?
Don’t use ,please bolsheviks habit to divide the peoples into “its” and “stranger”.
Logic , Lancer , is single , but sources of information( or propaganda) could be difference.

I assume that books written by Western scholars about USSR economy and internal policies are not valid for you as a sources, I would advice you then to read your own authors - say Solzhenitsyn’s “Gulag Archipelago”.
I have this book right in front of me.

No , I greatly love the work of western economists. I understand pluses of the market economy. And certainly I try to read many books of west authors . Many of them they prove the impossibility of the solution of contemporary problems under the conditions of contemporary capitalism.
I also very like of the work of western economists, where they reject “myth about prosperity” in modern East Europe, which some Western politics try to take into heads.
But if you like the such “correct historians” as Solzhenitsyn do not forget ,please, to read a little David Irving before the sleep.

Cheers.

#124

But the reaction of Soviet troops to the obvious provocations is not completely obvious. I think that if this was the real military occupation of Czechoslovakia, then Soviet tankers would use weapon.
And what is about Angola? I nothing know about this.

#125

I do not remember who helped soviets in Hungary…

Are you really think like that? Poland had no leader this time. Gomulka was soviet agent from the same stable like Bierut. And same thing you can say about other puppet regimes.

Yugoslavia had almost nothing to do with USSR and Romania was always “black sheep” because it was Caeucesku’s role to play “independent”. It was always convenient to Kremlin. Always… until Timisoara shots were fired. Dani can correct

Thanks for posting this photo. I had seen a few good ones but this is very nice. I will cherish it - burning soviet tank - I’m delighted. To be honest, rare photos from Budapest 1956 are better. How many tanks lost there? Do you remember?

720 dead soviet soldiers, 2500 insurgents. Many more wounded on both sides. In the name of what? Stupid ideology.

Fortunately none, zero, null. Poland had it’s turn when more than 21,000 were shot in 1940, more than 1 million 300 thousand deported - out of them how many died? Please answer me if you know. After 1944 alltogether 300,000 died from soviet hands or their agents.

I can understand Baltic people. Waffen SS was one of the ways of fighting soviets…

Dudayevs roundabout in Warsaw… I thought it was a stupidity and provocation…

Cheers,

Lancer44

#126

[quote=“Lancer44”]

Dudayevs roundabout in Warsaw… I thought it was a stupidity and provocation…

Cheers,

Lancer44[/quote]

Sorry mates for this break! Much to my surprise I was unable to find any clue on so called “naming of one’s Warsaw streets after Dudaev” with exception of a Russian blog:

And now for the bad, or, to be more precise, disappointing but not surprising, news: Mosnews reports, “[b]Every Chechen Town to Have a Street Named after Slain President Kadyrov[/b].” Senseless, and clearly aimed at feeding young Ramzan’s cult of personality. Mosnews observes:

"Soon after Kadyrov’s death, a street in Moscow was named after him. This decision spread a wave of protest among Russian liberal parties that reminded of the fact that before taking Russians’ side, Kadyrov was a warlord of a Chechen Islamist formation and called for a holy war against Russia.
Maybe if Basaev gives himself up and spends the last year of his life working with the Russians, they’ll name streets after him, too. "

This story is actually tangentially related to the ongoing Russo-Polish diplomatic row as well, in that it involves Chechnya and street-naming. Apparently one of Russia’s big beefs with Warsaw is that the city government of the Polish capital saw fit to name a square after Chechen rebel leader Djohar Dudaev. Russia’s problematic relationship with Poland predates even its problematic relationship with Chechnya, so the ongoing hostility is not surprising, but I always find it odd that small, symbolic gestures can lead to so much taking of umbrage.

http://scrapsofmoscow.blogspot.com/2005/08/good-and-bad-news-from-chechnya.html

I will ask Kovalski to inform us about the truth on Warsaw’s streets name;)

Edited: Oops! I forgot that I bolded something by mistake!

#127

In fact, there is a roundabout named after Dudayev. It’s placed outside the city centre. Personally, if I was Russian I wouldn’t bother myself about it.
It is a rather a problem of Poles who voted for these fools which make such stupid decisions. Naming of the roundabout was a political demonstration, not preceded by even the shorstest consideration.
Like Lancer44 said, “stupidity and provocation”, nothing else.
I don’t know how the whole case was described in Russian media, but I remeber that many, many polish authorities were against that.
But unfortunately, there came a time in Poland when fools are in charge, and they became stupid because they got too much power.

But why some members are outraged?
Dzochar Dudayev was:

  • member of Communist Party of Soviet Union,
  • soviet general,
  • commander of soviet strategic bombers’ unit,
  • soviet war hero (he served as a bomber pilot during the war in Afghanistan).

You have a dual morality, gentelmen :wink:
If someone is dropping bombs for us - it’s ok,
but if someone is dropping bombs on us - it’s very, very bad!

#128

Very very interesting information Kovalski!:smiley:

#129

Really, Lancer , you do not have any reasons to be disturbed about of statue Dzherzhinskij on Lubyanka and in Minsk. This is the tribute of memory to great Soviet State Security Agent.
Looking as our Polish “comrades” reward Polish streets to the names of Soviet Hero , Russian State Security Agents adopted their experience.
Thats right.
Dzherzhinskij was

  • member of Communist Party of Soviet Union,
  • soviet general,
  • commander of soviet State Security Agents ,
  • soviet hero of civil war.

to devil a dual morality, gentelmen. :-)))))))))

As the continuation of good Polish tradition, I propose to rename Warsaw into Stalingrad.

#130

My Russian mates, was the Chechen outburst a consequence of the Soviet communist policy?

I just ask…

#131

Chevan, I’m under the impression that you didn’t understand my previous post. The whole meaning, not only the part about Dudayev.
Maybe some day…
Oh, and when you write about Feliks Dzierzynski, don’t forget to add that his was POLISH :slight_smile:
Lancer had mentioned once the interesting anecdote about Dzierzynski.
Try to associate the facts.:wink:

#132

Yes i realy think so.
Brezhnev doubted the need for introducing troops and Czechoslovakia, he feared the repetition of Hungarian events. But the brother-communists like Golul’ka and Ulbricht insisted on the political need of the introduction of troops, and Soviet Generals certified Brezhnev that operation it will pass rapidly and effective (they were right).
To me it’s a very pity Chekhoslovakia citizens .
Certainly the introduction of troops was the direct disturbance of the sovereignty of the country. But necessary to return proper that Soviet management became more flexible and did not repeat Hungarian errors. Brezhnev refused in 1980 from the military action in Poland.
Mate , If Gomulka was "soviet agent " , then who were 3 millions of polish communists? Maybe Soviet Spis.

Yugoslavia had almost nothing to do with USSR and Romania was always “black sheep” because it was Caeucesku’s role to play “independent”. It was always convenient to Kremlin. Always…

Convenient to Kremlin !? And visits of different american presidents into Romania were Convenient to Kremlin also. Can you believe ,dear friend , that americans could do something “convenient to Kremlin”?

Thanks for posting this photo. I had seen a few good ones but this is very nice. I will cherish it - burning soviet tank - I’m delighted. To be honest, rare photos from Budapest 1956 are better.

Really do you delighted of burning soviet tanks?
Oh mate, wath lot of germans photo of damaged and burning soviet tanks and enjoy.
Wath the photo of murder soviet soldiers and enjoy.
But please, don’t surprise after , that nobody in Russia even don’t listen bullshit about Katyn.

How many tanks lost there? Do you remember?
720 dead soviet soldiers, 2500 insurgents. Many more wounded on both sides. In the name of what? Stupid ideology.

Yes, today it look like Stupid ideology.
But tel me please what “ideology” forced polish comrades in 1968 play active role in military operation. Why nobody of polish ruled elite didn’t note to Breznev about “Stupid ideology”, mate?

Fortunately none, zero, null. Poland had it’s turn when more than 21,000 were shot in 1940, more than 1 million 300 thousand deported - out of them how many died? Please answer me if you know. After 1944 alltogether 300,000 died from soviet hands or their agents.

I really glad that nobody of Poles perished in 1980. I am far from agressive behavior to any pro-slav nation. But I think there are no reason to blame modern russians in deporting or killind poles in 1940-44. Condition were another. And not any time we were the friends ( unfortunately I can’t recall when we were the real friends or allies).
I already told to you gentlemes, then polish “stones” to the Communism - it’s “stones” to the russian-polish friendship.
As good example of decigion old problems is the russian-chech relationships. Without nationalist hysteria, and geting mutual profit.

I can understand Baltic people. Waffen SS was one of the ways of fighting soviets…

And now I can understand the State Secret Servis Agency .

Cheers.

#133

No Kovalski , i quite good understand your “nice joke”.
To name crossings over in Warsaw the name of the “Soviet hero” Djohar Dudaev .
It is very ridiculous. I tell to my friends about the touching concern of contemporary Polish government about the “heroes OF THE USSR”. :wink:

#134

You are sick, Lancer. Only sick people would drool over photo of two guys in grave danger, which are risking their lives because they care about civilians. 99% people would just fire at the crowd which is trying to kill them. For example, do anyone remember last storming of Baghdad by americans when american tanker killed a journalist in a hotel balcony? In that case american tanker was perfectly right - this is war and he must assume that light blink from hotel means sniper and not some defective idiot who is trying to film the battle from cosy hotel balcony. Instead those two did nothing against civilians in response to assault.
BTW, do anybody have photos of horrible Soviet atrocities in Budapest 1956? I’ve found only photos of hungarians waving small arms, posing at cameras or happily killing their own people, executing them in the middle of the street (like this or this) for being communists and such (and all for naught). Surely you have photos of Soviet army slaughtering everyone, no?

720 dead soviet soldiers, 2500 insurgents. Many more wounded on both sides. In the name of what? Stupid ideology.

Yes, yes, stupid ideology. These people died because some idiots decided that they can defeat entire Warsaw treaty bloc by executing police officers on the street.

After 1944 alltogether 300,000 died from soviet hands or their agents.

Really? Where and how they’ve died?

I can understand Baltic people. Waffen SS was one of the ways of fighting soviets…

Maybe you would understand UPA too? Slaughtering civilians was one of the ways of fighting poles…

Of course it is. Of course serving a country is an honor, and harming it is the opposite. Everybody choose a path to take. If Dudayev would not become a rebel and traitor - of course he would be admired for his service, especially by Chechens themselves. In Caucasus there is a cult of old, experienced people, especially military. For example, veterans of WW2 who served in Red Army are admired more than anyone else.

The Chechen outburst was an inevitable result of Yeltsin policy. Imagine yourelf living in Chechnya living peacefully during USSR rule and then your region is in flames and suddenly arisen warlords demanding you go with them and fight against regular army. Will you blame USSR policy for this? No, you would blame local idiots which decided they are too big for their pants and big idiot in Moscow which did nothing to stop it.
One man from Russian forum which served in Chechnya during war, wrote that one day he rode with old Chechen man (he paid him for passage in car to military base when he need quickly call for help for a broken APC and it’s crew, radio was broken). The’ve talked a bit, and suddenly he asked the old man who do he think Russian soldiers are here - protectors or occupants and asked him to answer honestly. Old man looked down, thought for a few moments, and whispered: “If you would go away, in less than a month we would slaughter each other”.
Almost from the start of war 50% and more combatants of bandit groups were arab mercs. Hardly a ‘fight of Chechen people for independence’.
BTW, old man’s words became true, when Chechnya had it’s independence for around 2 years. It was time when Chechnya was independent officially and de-facto (but for some reason it received usual money from Federal Center). It was time of STATE LEVEL capturing of hostages for ransom (including Intl. Red Cross members), slavery, slaughtering of hostages, etc., etc. Schools and other social structures did not work. It all ended when guerillas tried to invade the neighboring Repiblic of Dagestan (part of Russian federation) to continue ‘Islamic revolution’ as they’ve called it. They’ve thinked it over perfectly, but they didn’t understood that time has changed. There was different man in place of impotent alcoholic.

#135

Thanks for info Sneaksie.
As for the “incident” with Lancer I’ll not comment since I already told that I’ll not moderate this particular thread.

#136

I am not wonder that you nothing find about this in western WED , Dani,

On 17 March 2005 in the world appeared the 19th according to the calculation “territorial” name of the name Of Djohar Dydaev. To one of the areas of Warsaw the resolution of town soviet appropriated the name of the first President of Ichkeria. Deputies satisfied the initiative of oppositional party “right and validity”:

“as in other countries supported us 20 years ago during the martial law, introduced by Communists, so also we are now morally obligated to support others, that protect our freedom”, the mayor of Warsaw stated in regard to this, reports the site of Chechen separatists “Caucasus-center”.

In the opinion of the British Financial Times, this solution “drove in” one additional nail into the “cover of the coffin” of Russian- Polish relations.
… MID of Russia estimated awarding to the name Of Dydaev of area as the insult of the memory of the victims of acts of terror in Moscow and other cities RF and as the manifestation of support to international terrorism. The chairman of committee on the international affairs of Federation Council RF Mikhail Margelov stated that thus Poland condescended to the level of “European third peace”.
Polish MID from the reciprocal statement restrained, reports RIA of “news”

. In the world there are 19 streets, which bear the name Dydaev. There are streets in Riga and Vilnius wanted to rename after tragedy in Beslane, but they left. There is a street with this name and in the western Ukraine - in Lvov.
http://today.viaduk.net/segodnya.nsf/0/83a...46?OpenDocument
http://www.podrobnosti.ua/kaleidoscope/200.../22/189152.html

As you can see gentlemens, polish elite don’t wish to improve the situation.
Today we have area Baltic-Western Ukraine-Poland-( where do look the Georgia?) states , who consider the leader of terrorist as national hero.
Wiil They want soon to name something by Ben laden’s name ?

#137

Chevan,
I’m sorry to say that, but I have agree with you.
When Warsaw’s City Council decided to name the roundabout by Dudayev, Mr Lech Kaczynski was the president of Warsaw. It was up to him.
Now he is a president of Poland.
I’m not going to start the discussion about polish-russian relations.
But I have to admit that thanks to him, his brother and the rest politicians from PiS (Law and Justice party) we won’t be able to warm up our mutual relations.
These gentelmen don’t wish to do anything towards that direction for a simple reason. They need “bad” Russia to boost their ego, to show to the nation, “Look, how strong we are, we are patriots, we are not afraid of Russia!”.
But unfortunately, that behavior will lead Poland astray.
For over 15 years Poland and Russia are unable to build normal relations.
Saying “normal” I don’t mean close friendship etc., but normal partnership.
Everytime there’s a chance to do something positive between our states, some idiot from Poland or from Russia does or says something irresonsible.
I’m afraid that the situation won’t change as long as Kaczynski brothers are in charge here in Poland.
I got a mate who’s studying Russian Philology in Torun. He couldn’t invite his Russian friend for the festival in Kostrzyn, because they couldn’t get the visas on time.
Thanks to politicians.:wink:

#138

I fully support Kovalsky and agree with Chevan. I already expressed my view that naming place after Dudayev was stupid provocation.
I also think that Poland and Russia should have normal, working relationship.
Perhaps not “love” or false friendship like after 1945, but normal relations not biased by hysterical interpretation of historical facts on both sides.
Kaczynski and his brother are not eternal. They will go soon.

Lancer44

#139

Sneaksie, I don’t drool over this photo.
For example widely publicised photographs of burned tanks of Kantemirovska Division in Grozny, deeply shocked me. I also had seen bones of burned tankers in Grozny eaten by stray dogs. Shocking.

Prague and Budapest are different stories. Entirely different.


Victim of the Invasion In the early days of the Russian offensive, an 18-year-old fireman was machine-gunned to death after climbing on to an advancing tank. Knowing that Tyszko was a photographer who had already eluded expulsion and that he could be relied upon, the dead fireman’s parents invited him to the crematorium mortuary to photograph their son’s corpse as a memorial to his courage. Tyszko also attended the funerals of other victims of the invasion. In the first month of occupation around 80 citizens of Prague and its environs were killed and around 800 wounded


His funeral.

BATTLE FOR RADIO PRAGUE
The Soviets knew that controlling the flow of information would be key to the success of their invasion. But, the Czechoslovaks knew that also. The Prague Radio Building on Vinohrodska Street, just behind the National Museum in the Central City, would be the center of resistance. Within minutes of the radio’s invasion announcement, Czechoslovak youths began gathering on Vinohrodska Street. Using wood, stones, buses and trolley cars, they began constructing massive barricades across the street.
At 8:00 a.m. Soviet troops surrounded the station building. A woman announcer reported this to the listeners, noting that, “They are going to silence our voices, but they cannot silence our hearts.” The microphone was passed from hand to hand as the announcers asked the audience to remain calm and have courage. One man held the microphone to the window so the listeners could hear machine gun fire outside. As her companions sobbed in the background, the first woman announcer came back on and reported, “They have entered the building, but we are still here and will be with you as long as we can hold out … we are behind Dubcek and we will never give up, NEVER.” Then the national anthem was played.

In fact, the troops hadn’t entered the building yet. As they moved onto Vinohradska Street they were met by thousands of people waving Czechoslovak flags and screaming, “Russians, go home!” When the tanks moved towards the barricades, students ran out on the street with Molotov cocktails and flaming rags and newspapers to set the tanks on fire. Old mattresses, garbage, and wooden crates were added to the fires. The invaders were shocked by the strong resistance. They retreated, leaving one tank and two munitions trucks in flames in front of the barricades. Radio Prague would remain on the air a little longer. But, the Soviets regrouped and a few hours later launched another attack, this time smashing through the barricades. Just before 11:00 a.m., troops stormed into the radio building, the last place in Prague to fall. The station went off at 11:00 a.m.

Surprisingly, only 7 Czechoslovaks were killed in the two battles for the radio station, out of a total of 23 killed in Prague and other cities. Later in the afternoon, thousands of citizens carrying a blood splattered flag made a funeral procession along Vinohradska Street in honor of the fallen in the battle for Radio Prague.

from:http://www.swl.net/patepluma/genbroad/czech.html

A view of the situation in front of Prague radio, 21 August 1968, at 10:35 a.m. They were still broadcasting from the building.

From: http://www.lib.umich.edu/spec-coll/czech/des26.html

Any comments? Comrad Sneaksie … are you there?

Peaceful and friendly soviet forces were just defending themselves because outraged crowd wanted them killed…
The main question is what soviet tanks were doing in Prague?

BTW - Polish army, which this time was blindly following soviets, commandered by soviet agents, established quite friendly relationship with Czech people in Hradec Kralove area. No one polish tank was burned, no one on both sides was injured. It was simple fact that polish soldiers expressed openly thet they are ashamed being in Czechoslovakia. They were moved back to Poland after couple of weeks.

#140

It’s not surprising at all, considering that shooting was prohibited. Imagine losses if Soviet Army behaved truly like an occupation army, they would be enormous (rebel losses of course). Imagine that some fools in Baghdad today will try to build barricades around radio station or throw Molotovs into american tanks. They would be wiped away in a matter of seconds. All these barricades, defending of radio stations is looking heroic, but in reality it’s absolute folly of participants themselves and a horrible crime of their commanders who sent young stupid men to certain death with nice words ‘for freedom’ and such, knowing for sure that they cannot succeed. All this was done to achieve as many losses as possible and then public nice photos of heroic young men killed by evil Russians in western press. If not prohibition of shooting these schemers would have many nice photos. You posted photo of dead man who was killed after climbing on advancing tank. First, i seriously doubt he was ‘machinegunned to death’ - try shoot someone on top of tank from inside, there is such thing as ‘deadzones’ for machinegunes as well for cannon, as you know. He probably just fell off - but it’s not the point. What his death did achieve? Nothing at all.
There are many examples young people sent to die for nothing. So-called ‘Polish government in London’ sent thousands of young men to certain death, pursuing the mirage of ‘independent Poland’ in an attempt to defeat Germans by paradrop operation in Warsaw. All this sea of blood is on their hands, hands of mofos who sat in London thinking they will outwit everybody. All participants in uprising died fighting for a goal they could not achieve - while these pieces of shit in London drank tea and talked about political situation. I hope they will burn in hell forever.