USSR and the Communist ideology - a debate

Hold on Sneaksie! You cannot compare Iraq and USA on our times with Czechoslovakia and Soviet Union on that time. Also USA had started a war in Iraq. Soviet Union had started a war in Czechoslovakia and beat the Czech Army and fought with insurgents afterwhile?

What’s your opinion about the human-wave tactic of the Red Army? Are Soviet commanders to be blamed?

Edited:

The attack across the Oder on to the Seelow heights begins at 5 a.m. on 16 April. Zhukov calls the confrontation the Red Army’s "final hour of vengeance”. However, the offensive is poorly executed, takes longer than expected, and results in heavy casualties.

Over one million shells are fired against the German positions in one of the largest artillery barrages in history. The barrage is followed by human wave onslaughts of Soviet troops. After three days and the loss of 30,000 Red Army soldiers the German line is broken.
By 25 April the Soviet forces have encircled Berlin. The city now becomes the “Reichssheiterhaufen” - the “Reich’s funeral pyre”.

My bold. http://www.moreorless.au.com/heroes/zhukov.html
Or in Red Army’s case, soldiers were sent to die for victory and the commanders were on the front line instead of drinking something in Moscow?

I don’t believe to my eyes.
We are in right way, Kovalski.

Cheers.

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”:wink:

It is not difficult to reach such conclusions. Sometimes thinking hard is enough, but many people are not used to such activity. If we agree about the present, we can discuss about the past.

Absolutely! And this is the mainstream of this board.

http://www.projectinposterum.org/docs/Torture.pdf
or
http://www.projectinposterum.org/docs/chodakiewicz1.htm

Here you can read paper of Professor Marek Jan Chodakiewicz: The Dialectics of Pain[1]: The Interrogation Methods of the Communist Secret Police in Poland, 1944-1955. Glaukopis, vol. 2/3 (2004-2005).

Marek Jan Chodakiewicz is Research Professor of History at the Institute of World Politics: A Graduate School of Statecraft and National Security in Washington, DC. He attended college in California. Having earned his Ph.D. at Columbia University, he taught at several schools in California, including Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. Between 2001 and 2003 he was an assistant professor with the Kosciuszko Chair in Polish Studies at the University of Virginia. In April 2005 Chodakiewicz was appointed by President George W. Bush for a 5-year term to the United States Holocaust Memorial Council. He is the author and editor of numerous historical monographs, documentary collections, and scholarly articles on Poland’s past. His latest works include Between Nazis and Soviets: Occupation Politics in Poland (2004), and After the Holocaust: Polish-Jewish Relations in the Wake of World War II (2003).

I hope that switching off the subject from blaming soviets for everything wrong during postwar period of history, to their polish helpers, will help our Russian friends understand some feelings which are rather common for all “ex-communist” countries.

"Torture was also the norm when the unfortunates were already serving their jail sentences. According to Mateusz Wyrwich, it still has not been established how many thousands of prisoners, out of 500,000 people who were incarcerated by the Communists between 1944 and 1956, perished because of torture and other forms of maltreatment. For example, over 800 witnesses have appeared to testify about torture in the Wronki prison, where, between 1945 and 1956, about 15,500 people were incarcerated, mostly political prisoners. Victims were routinely made to strip and wait in the prison yard, winter time included. Then, they were chased between two rows of wardens who beat them with truncheons and keys. The functionaries most responsible for the torture were the prison head Jan Boguwola, and his underlings: Adam Serwata, Wiktor Urbaniak, Józef Mikołajczak, Marian Kraus, Jerzy Białas, Marian Dusik, Tomasz Nowicki, and Jan Szymczak.

Torture was an integral part of Poland’s totalitarian reality. It was fully harmonized with the “legal” system and reflected in the official propaganda."

"No law explicitly permitted torturing anyone under Communism. However, between 1944 and 1956, the laws and regulations commonly applied against political offenders were utterly dehumanizing and, hence, implicitly encouraged their abuse, including torture. Two types of distinct legal systems functioned at the time: the Soviet and the Polish. The former applied not only in Poland’s eastern territories incorporated into the Soviet Union after the return of the Red Army in 1944, but also to the west of the so-called Curzon line, wherever the Soviet terror apparatus (and judiciary) happened to operate. While at the mercy of the NKVD, most commonly, the political offenders were charged under the infamous Article 58 of the Soviet penal code. According to Article 58, a Home Army soldier, who was ethnically Polish, born in pre-war Poland, and a life-long citizen of Poland could be sentenced as “traitor to the Soviet Motherland” in addition to being a “counter-revolutionary,” “Hitlerite collaborator,” and “fascist.”

"Marek Jan Chodakiewicz: The Dialectics of Pain: The Interrogation Methods of the Communist Secret Police in Poland, 1944-1955. Glaukopis, vol. 2/3 (2004-2005).

Part II

Torture was also the norm when the unfortunates were already serving their jail sentences. According to Mateusz Wyrwich, it still has not been established how many thousands of prisoners, out of 500,000 people who were incarcerated by the Communists between 1944 and 1956, perished because of torture and other forms of maltreatment.[32] For example, over 800 witnesses have appeared to testify about torture in the Wronki prison, where, between 1945 and 1956, about 15,500 people were incarcerated, mostly political prisoners. Victims were routinely made to strip and wait in the prison yard, winter time included. Then, they were chased between two rows of wardens who beat them with truncheons and keys. The functionaries most responsible for the torture were the prison head Jan Boguwola, and his underlings: Adam Serwata, Wiktor Urbaniak, Józef Mikołajczak, Marian Kraus, Jerzy Białas, Marian Dusik, Tomasz Nowicki, and Jan Szymczak.[33]

Torture was an integral part of Poland’s totalitarian reality. It was fully harmonized with the “legal” system and reflected in the official propaganda.[34]

The Legal Basis of Torture and the Communist Propaganda

No law explicitly permitted torturing anyone under Communism. However, between 1944 and 1956, the laws and regulations[35] commonly applied against political offenders were utterly dehumanizing and, hence, implicitly encouraged their abuse, including torture. Two types of distinct legal systems functioned at the time: the Soviet and the Polish. The former applied not only in Poland’s eastern territories incorporated into the Soviet Union after the return of the Red Army in 1944, but also to the west of the so-called Curzon line, wherever the Soviet terror apparatus (and judiciary) happened to operate. While at the mercy of the NKVD, most commonly, the political offenders were charged under the infamous Article 58 of the Soviet penal code. According to Article 58, a Home Army soldier, who was ethnically Polish, born in pre-war Poland, and a life-long citizen of Poland could be sentenced as “traitor to the Soviet Motherland” in addition to being a “counter-revolutionary,” “Hitlerite collaborator,” and “fascist.”[36]

In August 1945 the secret police arrested Captain Kazimierz Moczarski, who served in the Home Army during the Nazi occupation and afterward in one of its clandestine successors, the Delegation of the Armed Forces (Delegatura Sił Zbrojnych – DSZ). Moczarski was also a liberal and a leader of the center-leftist Democratic Party (Stronnictwo Demokratyczne – SD). As Moczarski recalled, UB Colonel Józef Goldberg, aka Jacek Różański, “told me that… I would go through a ‘hellish interrogation’ – which really happened later.” Różański threatened the victim that he would receive the death penalty. He also explained that “we can always prove that you were a Gestapo agent because we have the blank originals of the official stationery of the Gestapo, their rubber stamps, and the like. We also are holding such former Gestapo members who will very gladly sign a post-dated file prepared by us that you were a Gestapo agent.” Although Moczarski was tortured horribly, he refused to confess his “crimes” but was nonetheless sentenced to death.

Subsequently, Moczarski enumerated forty-nine different types of torture he was subjected to by eight officers of the UB during the interrogation which lasted from November 30, 1948, to September 22, 1952. The torture included beating with a nightstick, a piece of wire, and a metal rod on Moczarski’s throat, nose, fingers, and feet; tearing out his hair (from his genitals, beard, head, and chest); burning him with cigarettes and candles (on his lips, eyes, and fingers); crushing his toes with jackboots; kicking his entire body; stabbing him with needles; injuring his rectum with a screw and a stool leg; forcing the prisoner to do sit-ups until he fainted; forcing the prisoner to run up and down the stairs for long periods of time; locking him naked in solitary confinement; depriving him of sleep for up to 9 days at a stretch and preventing him from falling asleep by periodically slapping his face; forcing him to stand at attention for hours with his hands raised; and depriving him of food and drink for days. Physical torture was accompanied by psychological torment. It included depriving Moczarski of any contact with his family; informing him alternately that his wife “whom…[he] loved very much” was either dead or cheating on him; writing on the forehead of this famous anti-Nazi fighter the word “Gestapo”; and, finally, locking him in a cell for almost a year with Gestapo men, including SS-General Jürgen Stroop, the executioner of the Warsaw ghetto. All these and other methods were employed to force Moczarski to talk."

Lancer , tortures on political prisoners were always and everywhere. Independent of kind ideology and values of society .
See that it is done today in the one of the very popular prison.


What do you think , who taught the tortures of these glorious fellows - NKVD or GESTAPO.

Chevan, please do not treat every Lancer44’s post as an attack, because it becomes ridiculous.
Do you understand what he wrote?
Don’t you get the point?

That’s interesting Chevan, what can you tell me about this picture ?

I do not protect, Kovalski . :wink:
Simply, me seemed by interesting information of Lancer about the tortures and I decided to compare the different methods of tortures in the different countries. To me it is interesting to compare the methods of tortures in THE USSR and contemporary the USA.

:!: Off-topic: Chevan, take another look at picture quoted by Cuts and please answer to his question.

British “Daily Mirror” published the photographs of the violence of British soldiers in Iraq above the prisoners.

According to the information of newspaper, figuring on the photo prisoner they thrashed during 8 hours. In this time to it broke jaw, knocked out teeth and several times were moistened to him(!!!)

Although British command doubted into the authenticity of photographs, the facts of the brutal treatment of the soldiers of the kingdom was fixed on many other amateurish photos and video recordings.

In the photographs are shown the undressed Iraqis, who simulate sexual contacts, soldiers, who thrash connected other, and also concluded forms of mockeries. For example, on one of the photographs is visible prisoner, attached to the machine- lift loader

I think, a feeling of humor in Britons it’s all right with .

What’s happened , Dani.
Have you also the burning interest in this photograph?

Obviously , it was amateurs in Polish UB.
When matter is in the hands of professionals, the resault couldn’t be negative. It was absolutly proved by NKVD in 1937.

Without the offence . OK?

How do you think , Lanser, could Captain Kazimierz Moczarski refused to confess his “crimes” after several sessions of oral sex with Iraqi prisoners in the Abu -Greib?

…or after 20 minutes of close acquaintance with the german sheep dog

…or after the hour of a stay in this position

What will you say?

Pics Edited by Panzerknacker for off topic and nudity

And there we have it.
The truth.
Pravda.
“It is in print so it must be true”

Have you noticed the name of the site you use for your ‘facts’ ?

You, my old son, are the epitome of a old fashioned dyed-in-the-wool party member.

If you had even the most remote idea about the British Army, it’s structure, equipment and deployments you woldn’t have been taken in by the ridiculous pictures published in a cheap tabloid by an immoral editor.

The photographs were a piss-poor attempt to discredit the lads in theatre at the time.
It doesn’t take the brains of a rocket scientist to see through them and they were quickly proven to be very badly faked.
While the perpetrator was taken to court and convicted, the editor only lost his job - an inadequate punishment for placing the lives of men and women in Iraq at risk.

As to the lower picture, as soon as this was brought to light those involved were also brought before a court and dealt with.

Those are the facts, although I realise that they will be of little interest to you as they don’t conform to your narrow and rose-tinted view of the world.
This is brought home by the childish dig in your last line.

Here’s an idea - meet some real soldiers, learn about them and from them.

[FONT=Verdana]Chevan, I tolerated your off-topic posts trying to understand what’s your point. Now I’m sick and tired of your twisted logic.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]a) For the British soldiers I was interested in your opinion because I already knew the truth unveiled for you by Cuts.

[FONT=Verdana]b) For the American soldiers, your biggest mistake was that you compared the single acts of several idiots (and idiots were, are and will be in each army – Russian included – see dickheads who ordered gas poisoning in Moscow theatre hostage crisis in fall of 2002 with a result of 129 dead as collateral victims) with the organized acts of communist institutions. I’ll not comment on USSR (because communism was Russians’ choice – more or less) but on Central and Eastern European countries where the communism was IMPOSED – I hope that your translator will translate correctly this term – by the Soviets. It existed a SYSTEM of torture in the communist countries cited.
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]Your only excuse is that you don’t have English skills in order to understand properly what is about in others’ posts. Maybe you faced the same problem as our native English speakers: you add Lancer’s post into the translator, hit the button and read the result. And the result was a collection of words.

Try to learn more English in order to be informed (you could inform yourself not only from Russian media but from international one).

Edited: Now back on topic unless my mod mates will decide otherwise for this thread.
[/FONT][/FONT]

Marvellous – a few isolated incidents by individuals who have been severely punished is deemed to be significantly worse than systematic torture and murder by the Cheka-GB over many decades. Which planet do you come from? And to say that anything was ever “proved” by the NKVD is ridiculous – they tortured people into confessing the most ridiculous things and into implicating everyone they knew as members of huge organisations that never existed. This is undisputable historical fact. Many people who suffered at their hands have attested to this, as have the archives.

You are either a very persistent and dedicated troll, or you actually believe this crap.

In either case, you, sir, are a knob. Be a good boy and sod off now, would you?

Dani wrote: (because communism was Russians’ choice – more or less)

If you call a coup d’état by a very small minority party in the constituent assembly a choice…

I know mate, but I prefered to talk to Chevan on his language.:wink:

I cann’t, but agree with you.
You right, not any photograph in the newspaper can be the truth.

This picture look like two young men get sexual pleasure.
But tell me please , my young father, what kind of pleasure get british guy in this photo

http://www.russianlondon.ru/newspaper/news/23344/

21 jan 2005.
…22 photographs were promulgated within the framework of the session of Military tribunal in Osnabryukke (Germany). Tribunal is judged three British soldiers. Two soldiers deny their fault, one recognized itself by guilty of “putting of solid damages” prisoner
…In parallel in Germany, where British military base is placed, is passed the court trial above another Briton, 19-year series Gary Bartramom from the same Royal rifle regiment, which also is charged with the obscene rotation with the Iraqis during May 2003. The details of this hearing thus far are not revealed…

Well, i think that the Military tribunal “have the most remote idea about the British Army, it’s structure, equipment and deployments”.
Recently, I wathed video on “cheap” Euronews canal of the sadistic violence of Iraqi adolescents by British soldiers .
I think that your “wide-range view of the world” don’t let you to see some obvious things.
Pravda ?

OK , Dani .
It’s enough about the violence in the prisons.
I see here it arose psychological problems because of the different home ideologies.