hi all, i’m writing from Hungary. If i know well, Vasili killed 40 germans in the first 10 days, and he and his companion killed 1200 germans at all
Zaitsev’s kills were not just Germans in the Wehrmacht, but also other Axis armies. His score is 32 with the ordinary Mosin Nagant 91/30, 225 with a Mosin Nagant sniper rifle at the Battle of Stalingrad, and a total of 400 with a Mosin Nagant sniper rifle during the entire war.
Sorry, pal, I don`t really know how it goes in “all armies”. but in soviet (and russian) army killing soldier without investigation and sentence is a serious crime (including WW2). And an officer who committed such a crime should have been sentenced to death penalty or, more likely, sentenced to several months in penalty battalion.
Surely, such cases of “lynch law” happened but they were put in practice by certain comanders of the units during the fight. But it didn’t reffer to NKVD and was illigal.
Pls exchange sources of your knowledge.
Pls exchange sources of your knowledge.[/quote]
A quick Google reveals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops
http://www.1jma.dk/articles/1jmaarticlesNKVD.htm
http://www.mosinnagant.net/USSR/Russian-M44-Carbine.asp
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0425715/
Civil war use of blocking units:
And we all know what Soviet “due process” was like :roll: , particularly in Stalin’s era
Pls exchange sources of your knowledge.[/quote]
A quick Google reveals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops
[/quote]
…and a quick copy and paste ( 
) from the first site cited by MoS reveals as sources:
Органы государственной безопасности СССР в Великой Отечественной войне. Сборник документов,
Том 1. Книга 1. Накануне, Издательство “Книга и бизнес”, (1995) ISBN 5-212-00804-2
Том 1. Книга 2. Накануне, Издательство “Книга и бизнес”, (1995) ISBN 5-212-00805-0
Том 2. Книга 1. Начало, Издательство “Русь” (2000) ISBN 5-8090-0006-1
Том 2. Книга 2. Начало, Издательство “Русь” (2000) ISBN 5-8090-0007-X
Том 3. Книга 1. Крушение “Блицкрига”, Издательство: Русь, 2003, ISBN 5-8090-0009-6
Том 3. Книга 2. От обороны к наступлению, Издательство: Русь, 2003, ISBN 5-8090-0021-5
[b]An American made a film named ‘‘Enemy at the gate’’ its all a big lie that the russian officers killed their own soldiers…But when i firstly watch the video i shocked with these scenes and began to search if its true!? OFCOURSE NOT!
Yeah! Have u ever watch ‘‘midnight express’’ which is about turk prisons made by americans!?
OFCOURSE ITS NOT TRUE TOO!!
Every country has own heroes…im giving respect to all of them!!![/b]
400 kills, imagine going to bed with that on your mind everynight.
There are many flaws in Enemy at The Gates.
-
Where were the gates?
-
Vassili is not from England
-
One of his mates ( the guy with the silver teeth) Was actually an escaped gorrilla from The Dutch Zoo.
-
That sex scene took 4 mins and i think 34 seconds. No one has ever screwed up that fast!!
-
If you notice in the movie ( do this its funny ) Vassili Zeitsev ( jude law ) has at least 2 testipops in the movie!
This is a humourous side. DON"T TAKE IT TO HEART!
Vassili was a hero!
Whatewer somebody talk on this forum, Vasiliy Zaitsev was the real sniper in the Red Army.
He was born 23 march 1915 in te countryside Eleno in South Ural. From 1936 he served in the navy.
In september 1942 Vasiliy come in Stalingrag with 284 infantry division.
About month he fight with simple rifle, but soon politruk 284 division Ivan Grigorjev in first time wrote report about his accuracy. The sniper rifle for Vasiliy presented personally general Chyikov- the commander of deffence the Stalingrad. Since that both great man bacame good friends.
Duel between major Kenig(anothe source call him as Heinz Thorvalds) and Vasiliy was actually happend. But russian sniper was not alone. He had some asistents, like his mate Nikolai Kulikov. Togethe they were abolished Kenig
In january 1943 Zaitsev was serioslu wound. In hospital he knew that he bacame “Hero of SU”. Later he came back to Chyikov and continued fight. He finished war in 1945 near the Dnestr river.
After the WW2 he bacame komendant of Pechors area of Kiev. There he merried with Zinaida Sergeevna.
Vasiliy bacame Honor Citizen of Volgograd (Stalingrad). Even in 75 yers old he was excellent shooter.
His wafe told about interesting event when Vasiliy Zaitsev wisited DDR after the war. During meeting with germans in hall got up women and said that she’s daughter of major Kanig. Then and there Zaitsev was sent off hall and soon he come back to the SU, becouse soviet headquarters fear for his life.
In 1991 Vasilij Grigorjevich Zaitsev was dead.
According his testament in 2006 his remains were re-buried in Mamaev’s hill in Volgograd beside his companion-in arms.
It’s impossibly count how many germains was killed by sniper Zaitsev. Different sours call from 245 to over 300, but in anycase Vasiliy is one of the most great sniper of the world. Not even WW2.
Sourses:
http://www.aif.ru/online/aif/1317/63_01
About film “Enemy at the gate”
http://www.kpnemo.ru/other/2005/10/04/pamyat_serdtsa_protiv_vraga_u_vorot/
Out of Nowhere: A History of the Military Sniper, Martin Pegler, Osprey, 2004, p 171
The Military Sniper Since 1914, Martin Pegler, Osprey, 2001, p 23
The Military Sniper Since 1914, Martin Pegler, Osprey, 2001, p 24
Best Little Stories From World War II,C. Brian Kelly,Montpelier Publishing, ISBN 0-9624875-0-3, Seventh Printing 1996, pp 99-103
NOTE:
“some Soviet sources claimed that the Germans brought in the chief of their sniper school, Major Heinz Thorvald to assassinate Zaitsev…Thorvald character’s name was changed to Major König.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassili_Zaitsev
If you have seen the movie, you will notice differences from the account above.
rich45
Good article on Russian Snipers
http://www.hk94.com/hk/index.php?showtopic=4989"Already Russian newspapers had made the name Vasiliy Zaitsev famous.
In but ten days’ time he had killed nearly forty Germans, and correspondents
gloatingly,wrote of his amazing ability to destroy his enemies with a single
bullet. It was a skill he had learned while shooting deer in the forests around
Elininski, his home in the Ural Mountain foothills. A shepherd in the summers,
Zaitsev, at the age of fifteen, went off to technical school in Magnitogorsk.
On September 20, 1942, the broad-faced Zaitsev came to Stalingrad with the
284th Division. Now he was a national hero, and as his fame spread across
no-man’s-land, the Germans took an inordinate interest in him.
SS Colonel Heinz Thorwald was dispatched to Stalingrad from Berlin for the express
purpose of eliminating top Soviet snipers, especially Vassily Zaitsev, who was
being lionized in Soviet propaganda. The Soviets were tipped off to Thorwald
mission by a prisoner. Like Zaitsev, Thorwald first made a careful study of the
terrain and of his victims before attempting a kill. When two Soviet snipers
were killed by single rifle shots, Zaitsev began counter-stalking Thorwald himself.
The duel lasted for several days. During this time Thorwald shot a
political officer named Danilov who was “covering” the duel for Soviet
propaganda (Danilov accompanied Zaitsev and stupidly gave away their
position). Zaitsev finally got Thorwald by offering another sniper, his
assistant Zulikov, as bait. Zulikov positioned himself and lifted his
helmet over a wall, where Thorwald put a bullet through it.
Kulikov cried out as if hit. Thorwald made the fatal mistake of exposing
himself to confirm the kill, and Zaitsev shot him dead.Next lines are taken from Antony Beevor’s Stalingrad, The fateful siege : 1942 - 1943.
The telescopic sight of his prey’s rifle, allegedly Zaitsev’s most treasured
trophy, is still exhibited in the Moscow armed forces museum, but this dramatic
story remains essentially unconvincing. It is worth noting that there is absolutely
no mention of it in any reports.**Indeed, the whole story of the sniper duel is fiction. There is absolutely no trace in
the German military archives or SS records of SS officer Heinz Thorwald.
Also there is absolutely no report of the duel in the Red Army files which concentrated
on sniper activities (the daily reports of the Political Department of Stalingrad Front to Moscow)
This great story can be classified as Sovjet propaganda.Other snipers at Stalingrad.
Vasiliy Zaitsev W.W. II Russia about 400 kills
(149 Kills at the battle of Stalingrad, some sources telling me he shot 232 German soldiers
at Stalingrad)A sniper reaching forty kills would receive the “for bravery” and the title of
“Nobel Sniper”.
The highest scorer only identified as “Zikan” killed 224 Germans by 20 November 1942.
Sergeant Passar of 21st Army was credited with 103 kills.
Kucherenko, an Ukrainian, killed 19.
An Uzbek from 169th Rifle Division killed five Germans in three days.
Anatoly Chekov killed 17 Germans in two days !
Corporal Studentov killed 170 Germans.
“Noble Sniper” Ilin, a commissar from a Guards rifle regiment, was credited
with 185 kills.Sniper V. Kozlov, just being decorated
for his 30th kill.The same Zaitsev - Thorwald story :
The ruins of Stalingrad were the natrual habitat of snipers, and each army had its recognized
champions. For the Russians, Vasily Zaitsev was the onetime shepherd who had perfected his
marksmanship hunting deer in the Ural foothills. In one ten day period, he had killed no fewer
than 40 Germans and his fame had spread into enemy lines. The Germans retaliated by flying
to the scene SS Colonel Heinz Thorwald, head of their snipers’ school near Berlin. Zaitsev
soon heard talk of the deadly Thorwald, and he set down a tense account of their dual to
the death.“The arrival of the Nazi sniper set us a new task,” wrote Zaitsev. “We had to find him, study
habits and methods, and patiently await the moment for one, and only one, well-aimed shot.”For two days, Zaitsev stalked his rival, trying to locate his precise whereabouts. On the third
day, Zaitsev was accompanied in his search by a political instructor named Danilov. As the
two lay hidden, peering intently through their telescopic sights, Danilov suddenly said: “There
he is! I’ll point him out to you!” Recalled Zaitsev: "He barely, literally for one second,
but carelessly, raised himself above the parapet, but that was enough for the German to
hit and wound him.“For a long time I examined the enemy positions, but could not detect his hiding place.
To the left was a tank, out of action, and on the right was a pillbox. Where was he?
In the tank? No, an experienced sniper would not take up position there. In the pillbox,
perhaps? Not there, either - the embrasure was closed. Between the tank and the pillbox,
on a stretch of level ground, lay a sheet of iron and a small pile of broken bricks. It had
been lying there a long time and we had grown accustomed to its being there. I put myself
in the enemy’s position and thought - where better for a sniper? One had only to make a
firing slit under the sheet of metal, and then creep up to it during the night.”To test his theory, Zaitsev rasied a small plank with a mitten attached to its end. A shot
rang out and a bullet smashed into the plank. “Now,” wrote Zaitsev, “came the question of
luring even a part of his head into my sights.” Before that could be done, however, Zaitsev
would have to change his own position, which had clearly been marked by the German.
Zaitsev and a fellow sniper, Nikolai Kulikov, spent much fo the night working their way
to a new vantage point. By dawn they were ready.“The sun rose,” Zaitsev recalled. "We had decided to spend the morning waiting, as we
might have been given away by the sun on our telescopic sights. After lunch our rifles
were in the shade and the sun was shining directly on the German’s position. At the
edge of the sheet of metal something was glittering: an odd bit of glass - or telescopic
sights? Kulikov carefully, as only the most experienced can do, began to raise his helmet.
The German fired. For a fraction of a second Kulikov rose and screamed. The German
believed he had finally got the Soviet sniper he had been hunting for four days,and half
raised his head from beneath the sheet of metal. That was what I had been banking on.“I took careful aim. The German’s head fell back, and the telescopic sights of his rifle
lay motionless, glistening in the sun until night fell.” Russian sources credited Vasily
Zaitsev with killing 149 (232 ?) Germans before the end of the battle of Stalingrad. Then he
was blinded by a detonating land mine."
SEE ALSO:
http://216.198.255.120/russianpart/russnipers.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vassili_Zaitsev
http://www.hk94.com/hk/index.php?showtopic=4989
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_(computer_game)
For the last time, the sniper duel did not take place… It’s a myth… Fiction…
I posted the story (real or fiction) because it had not previously been included in this thread and to contrast it to the version seen in the movie. However, I also included other opinions on the subject as well - including that the story may have been a fabrication for propaganda purposes.
I would have to agree with what Dani had posted earlier in this thread.
Another comment on the subject from another forum.
Yes George, but the whole point of this debate is the idea that the Germans sent a “super sniper” to assinate Zaitsev, no one is debating that “sniper duels” (snipers engaging in anti-sniper missions) occured.
I was also told by an expert on Soviet Propaganda that the
Soviets INTENTIONALLY used a false name and ascribed S.S.
status, rather than Gebirgsjaeger unit i.d., to the shooter for
“fictional propaganda purposes”…
So what happened is that one particular encounter was taken by the propaganda people and “sexed” up by labeling the German as a master sniper specially sent to assinate Zaitsev the home grown farm boy…
After all if they change the snipers unit, why not change his rank and status?
As for removing record of the encounter by the Germans to save face? Come on, they recorded pleanty of other embarrising mistakes why whipe all record of this minor event?
The whole Zaitsev vs Koning dual is a myth, a good propoganda story that helped ignite Russian patriotism and turn the tide of the war.
There are many sniper duels were in Stalingrad at that time. Every day and evry night garmans and soviet snipers killed enemy’s soldiers and officers. And certainly, they killed each other.
What else ,Auke , do you mean like “duel”?
I think it’s absolutly do not matter what was the name of killed germans sniper: Erwin Kernig, Henz Thorwald or ,maybe, Hanz Kristian Andersen.
Many experienced snipers ,germans and soviet, were killed in Stalingrad.
And most of germans were killed by Vasiliy Zaitsev and Anatoliy Chehov
- that’s realy important.
What is the realy a myth … fiction and …propaganda? This is the film “Enemy at the gates”.
While stalking is one of the sniper skills and counter sniper ops were definitely conducted, the ranges at which these engagements took place were significantly shorter than those at which snipers can and are often employed.
Many of these men and women learnt and/or practiced their trade in FIBUA scenarios and may perhaps more properly be described as sharpshooters.
In no way do I mean to detract from these soldiers’ bravery or skill, but apart from those trained at specialist all terrain centres the title of ‘sniper’ seems to be, at least in part, a misnomer.
bas,
I have never denied the possibilty that the story may have been a Soviet fabrication for propaganda purposes. In each of the previous posts that I have placed on this thread I have included information to that effect. As I stated previously - I posted the story (real or fiction) because it had not previously been included in this thread and to contrast it to the version seen in the movie. My main motive was to post it as an exhibit for the record. In other words, as a more accurate representation of the original Soviet version of the story than was portrayed in the movie (and fully aware that it could have been Soviet propaganda).
I don’t have problem with the story possibly being “a myth, a good propaganda story that helped ignite Russian patriotism and turn the tide of the war.” If it was, it would not have been the first time the Soviets ever lied (or any government for that matter). But the nazis were not exactly the guardians of truth either, nor was Hitler the most rational of men. So, I can’t discount the possibility (however remote) that the records could have been removed by the Germans to save face. Therefore, I cannot say with honesty that I am 100 percent convinced that the story is a fake - there is still a tiny sliver of doubt. But that is just my opinion.
That being said, even if I knew for certain that it was a fabrication I would still post the story for the historical record (as significant propaganda). I would still find the story interesting as historical fiction as it gives a glimpse into how intense the sniper duels could be.
There are many sniper duels were in Stalingrad at that time. Every day and evry night garmans and soviet snipers killed enemy’s soldiers and officers. And certainly, they killed each other.
What else ,Auke , do you mean like “duel”?[/quote]
The duel between Vasily G. Zaitsev and Major Erwin König / Standartenführer Heinz Thorwald did not take place. Probably there were some duels between lesser known snipers, but König / Thorwald did not exist.
The V. Zaisev working tool…the Moisin with 3,5x PU scope.