I assume the fact that König / Thorwald did never exist. But in his memoirs , V. Zaitsev told about german “supersniper” in Stalingrad which killed two soviet experienced snipers. The task to dismiss enemy was sat for Zaitsev’s sniper group and Vasiliy with his assistent Kulikov carried
out the task. The fact that the duel was real confirm memoirs of general Chyikov.
It’s probably later, in propaganda purpose, german sniper was called as commander of snipers school the König / Thorwald .
was Vassili Zaitsev a real person, i watched a program on discovery chennel talking about this person and how he took out the german sniper BUT i watched another program on the same channel talking about snipers and they were saying the Vassili Zaitsev was just a proper gander stunt to keep ut the russians moral. does any one else here see these two programs and can you tell me wether it true or false, as the discovery channel has contrdicted itself…
Last 2 posts merged in this thread from the 2005 archive.
Edited: also merged with another one from 2006 archive
thanks m8, makes you wounder who makes these programs up dont it ??
Ah, noble sniper Zaitsev. Many kills! He’s earned himself an impresive reputation I must say. And as for Konings, Ive read up that he doesn’t seem to exist. Few people claimed he wasn’t in the German army at all, as if a myth to serve as Russian Propaganda. Who know’s?
He had 400 kills.If its wrong don’t blame me i watched it on weaponology.
He claimed 400 kills, we dont know if that is the actual figure.
wasnt it about just 149 kills?
No by the end of the war the confirmed amount of kills he had was around 400
and the sniper duel i believe it did take place because iv seen a lot of tv shows and programms and they all say the duel took place
there was 175 confirmed kills in stalingrad
a german captive admitted that the werhrmacht command was seriously converned about the damage russian snipers were doing, so they ordered Major Konings, head of wehrmacht’s sniper school near berlin, had been flown in for the express purpose of taking out the “main rabbit” due to the meaning of the name zaitsev meant rabbit
There has never been a Major Erwin König or a SS-Standartenführer Heinz Thorwald, they’re all “invented” by the Red Army’s propaganda section.
Inconsistencies can be found in any avenue of this legend, such as the Major himself. There are no records of a Major König in the Germans’ military archives, although there are of one S.S. Colonel Heinz Thorvald. Also, there was no mention of a sniper duel in reports to Aleksandr Shcherbakov, to whom all aspects of sniperism were reported. It is noted that the Russians, like any other country, used propaganda to increase morale, and so the sniper duel of Stalingrad remains shrouded in myth.
Would you mind quoting some details on him?
Thanx!
Heinz Thorvald (died c. 1942) was an alleged apocryphal, yet famous, German sniper, best known from the memoirs of Vasily Grigoryevich Zaytsev and the book Enemy at the Gates (not to be confused with the movie mentioned below) as a skilled sniper that Vasily killed during the Battle of Stalingrad. He was apparently identified by documents from his body, although the Germans had no records of Heinz Thorvald. Allegedly he was a high ranking officer and had hundreds of kills, as many as 400, the amount of exaggeration is indeterminate. This “sniper duel” was used by the Soviets for propaganda purposes. Thorvald’s existence is itself unconfirmed, so it is currently unknown if the “duel” took place.
Fictional representations
A fictionalized account in the movie Enemy at the Gates portrays Heinz Thorvald (under the name of Erwin König), played by Ed Harris, as the head of the Wehrmacht Sniper School. He is sent to Stalingrad to take on the increasingly aggressive Soviet sniper division. In this, he is at first highly successful. He is depicted as a ruthless, somewhat aristocratic Bavarian, pitted against Vasily Zaytsev, the top Russian sniper and propaganda darling. In the film, König is killed at the Stalingrad train yard after Zaytsev fires a Mosin-Nagant (7.62x54R) bullet through the German’s left eye.
The name Heinz Thorvald was arrogated by author David L. Robbins in his 1999 novel War of the Rats, although he argues that Thorvald was an SS colonel (Standartenführer), and was originally an instructor at the Wehrmacht underground headquarters in Zossen. However, no records of the SS ever being in Stalingrad have been found, and no active sniper was ever given a rank so high, as snipers in the German Army were not employed in formed units of snipers, but were rather deployed in small groups. The Red Army, conversely, deployed snipers in units as large as a battalion, and Vasily himself was a Junior Lieutenant and eventually Captain.
just somthing i thought tou lot would like … was in that Wikipedia oh well:twisted:
See! And to shorten it: The story of the high-ranking (SS-) officer, probably aristocratic, being defeated by the poor, enlisted russian shepherd/sniper form the Ural was a wonderful class struggle fairy tale for the bolshevik potentates. Over and out.
In other words, it didn’t happen, am I right?
You’re right.
Just a few sidenotes. Mysterious “Heinz Thorvald” was supposed to be an SS-Standartenführer (= Colonel). Actually “sniper warfare” was not a real issue in the Waffen-SS. It was rather considered a dishonorable way of fighting (“terrorist hedgerow shooters”).
Anyway, the most successful german sniper in WW2 was Gefreiter (PFC) Matthäus Hetzenauer with 345 confirmed kills by the end of the war. He was awarded the Knight’s Cross on April 17, 1945.
Now imagine a colonel of the Waffen-SS with “more than 400 kills” by the end of 1942 already. What would the Third Reich propaganda had made out of this man? BTW, among the 7313 recipients of the Knight’s Cross you won’t find a Heinz Thorvald.