Vassili Zaitsev

World War II Russian Military
#101

I agree the real duel was nothing like seen in the movie. In Vassilis original full length memoirs “For us there is no land beyond the Volga” he claims a German prisoner told Chuikov that a Major Koning has been flown in to take out Zaitsev.

This so called Koning killed sniper Gryazev and shattered the scope of sniper Morozovs rifle. Vassili and his team went tracking Koning down when eventually Zaitsev and Kulikov found “Konings” area of operation-they searched for him over a weeks time and eventually Zaitsev killed this German sniper supposibly “Koning” Vassili and Kulikov went over to his body took his documents which read the name Koning on them. Vassili gave the rifle to Captain Batyuk and kept the scope as a trophy. More can be heard on the documentary-Russias War Series where Zaitsev tells about his experiances and the duel on it.

But again there is no proof of this German sniper being a Major or head of the sniper school in Berlin… as flamethrowerguy said the top 3 German snipers didnt have a rank higher than sergeant.

Regards

#102

Sorry I just got done watching enemy at the gates and google’d vassili zaitsev to read up about the actual real life sniper hero. I have to say, after reading every post carefully and checking everyones resources, I’ve come to the conclusion that the sniper duel DID in fact take place. There is no concrete evidence to support the fact that this Major Konig/Koning/Thorval did NOT exist. There is however, a substantial amount of evidence to support the theory that he DID exist. The notes from Vassili’s memoirs concerning the duel of a “very skilled sniper” and the fact that the scope of his gun was kept as a trophy is in my opinion, more persuasive than Konig’s name not being shown on any records. There is a scene in enemy at the gates in which Konig is talking to his superior officer who speaks of any knowledge of his existence being stricken from record in the event of his failure. Now, I understand that this movie is more fiction and hollywood glamour than fact, but that doesn’t mean that this scenario could not have actually happened. Vassili had been blown up alot as a folk hero through propaganda during the war and if indeed he was targeted specifically by a supposed super sniper, it’s very realistic that the Germans would have denied such a failure. Not so much for the purpose of saving face on their side, but mainly to reduce the success and acclaim of such a celebrated and admired war hero of the Russians. I mean c’mon, no country wants to admit another country’s soldiers are better than their own. And if they ever came out and said Konig actually existed, that’s exactly what they’d be saying.

#103

The film ‘Enemy at the Gates’ cannot be taken as a historical document. Every war film to greater or lesser degree muddles with history, going back to just after the war finished.

However after seeing this film I did want to read more about ‘Duel of two Snipers’.

I have now read over 20 sources on the subject, and Vassili did exsist. He was a decent shot,(avg sniper shot in stalingrad was 32m, not what we’d think of as sniper distances) and he was used as a properganda tool. He reached his high kill levels because targets were set up/sourced for him by his team of snipers, know as rabbits.

There was however no ‘Super Duel’.

No recored has ever been found in the german archvies of any personel transfer, billeting or resource requests with refernce to König/Koning/Thorvald . This lack of details from the same archives that DO the amount of gas required to kill each of the millions of inocennts held in the concertration camps. How much space each required, how much food, heat etc. etc. etc.

Also the NKVD were ansererable only to Stalin, and would enforce Stalin’s ‘Not a step Backward’ directive with brutal and excessive force, and men were often shot for retreating.

“In the Soviet army it takes more courage to retreat than advance.”
‘Joseph Stalin’

#104

ss colonel hienz thorwald head of the german sniper school in zossen.he and zaitsev stalked each other for 3 days but zaitsev got the kill. later he was blinded in 1 eye from shrapnel but regained sight after a doctor preformed surgery. page 239 of the world at arms the readers digest illustrated history of ww2. look it up!

#105

Well,…

#106

I stand corrected. If the Readers Digest says it happened…

#107

Ah yes the problem is that the sniper school in Zossen never had one Heinz Thorwald, matter of fact Germans did not have any records of the guy, what we know is that Zaitsev did shoot a kraut sniper, everything else including “hundreds of kills” is propaganda and heresay which is unconfirmed and undocumented, unless you use soviet newsreels as proof.

#108

This video spoke volumes to me-Zaitsev says who would have guessed some bigshot like this had flown to Stalingrad but when we dragged him out we found him to be the head of the Berlin sniper school !

Probably from documents taken off the German sniper more than likely

Regards"-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn8rCfs8n70

#109

Took this from the Axis History database on the subject.

Here is what Anthony Beevor (author of Stalingrad) had to say:
“Indeed, the whole story of the sniper duel is fiction. There is absolutely no trace in the German military archives or SS records of SS officer Heinz Thorwald.
Also there is absolutely no report of the duel in the Red Army files which concentrated on sniper activities (the daily reports of the Political Department of Stalingrad Front to Moscow)
This great story can be classified as Sovjet propaganda.”

The quote below is from a BBC News article:
“Mr Beevor, whose acclaimed tome Stalingrad is rapidly becoming the definitive text on the battle, said while Zaitsev was a real figure there was no evidence to support the existence of Koenig.
He said: ‘I’ve been through the Soviet Ministry of Defence’s archive in Podolsk and there is no record of such a duel.’
‘If it had taken place the Soviet propaganda machine would have leapt on it.’”

Addendum by Martin Pegler
Curator of Weapons, The Royal Armouries, Leeds, UK
“Scott,
While researching for a book on sniping, I used some contacts at Russian museums to look into the veracity of the much reported fight between Zeitsev and Koenig [Thorvald]. Despite the fact that Russian company and regimental records were faithfully kept even throughout the worst days of the Stalingrad seige, nowhere is this duel reported in war diaries. This would seem to be an odd omission, particularly in the face of the cult of ‘Sniperism’ that the Soviet press were so keen to extoll.
I tend to agree with Anthony Beevor’s opinion that the shooting match never actually happened and was the result of propoganda reporting by the press who were always keen to promote new ‘Heroes of the Soviet Union’. Apparently Zeitsev himself never confirmed or denied the event, an odd attitude in view of its apparent historical importance.”

#110

There may or may not be records of the duel taking place, But as Zaitsev said in the video-He had a duel with a German sniper and when they dragged the German out they found this German sniper to be the head of the Berlin sniper school. Zaitsev confirmed the duel in his memoirs as well.

Im taking Zaitsevs word on it and agreeing that this German sniper was in fact the head of Berlins sniper school-of course thats only my opinion and doesnt make it fact. The way I see it though there is too much proof to say that the duel did not happen, There is Zaitsevs word on camera and in his memoirs,Marshall of the Soviet Union Vassili Chuikov even told of the duel in his memoirs,There is Konings scope in the Moscow museum,and the encounter Zaitsev had with supposibly Konings daughter post war in Berlin Germany.

Here is what Vassilis wife said about this encounter during an interview in 2006"-

Zaitsev was invited to Berlin for a Soviet military conference,In the city hall of Berlin the civilians asked Zaitsev to tell about the duel with Major Koning,and some woman suddenly rises and tells Zaitsev-Im the daughter of Major Koning ! Zaitsevs face turned gray from this encounter. The Soviet organizers quickly evacuated Zaitsev into a car with protection and transported him out to avoid a threat… Indeed during the battle there is proof and fact that Zaitsev killed Koning, intelligence officers took the documents of the Fascist sniper. In Stalingrad Koning killed two of Zaitsevs snipers as well as several officers. During the duel Koning shot and shattered the scope on sniper Morozovs rifle,a student of Zaitsevs.Koning then wounded a political instructor, for a second Koning rose above from his cover and his Sniper scope made it possible for Zaitsev to see and thats where Zaitsev shot and killed the Major.Vassili said the Duel lasted for some four days and finally Zaitsev and his partner Nikolai Kulikov outwitted and destroyed the enemy sniper Koning…

That is the story im going to have to agree with

Best regards

#111

Well, if this story makes your life more convenient I’d hate to destroy your illusions. However, a “sniper-school” at Berlin or at Zossen (as an alternate version) is as fictious as a Major König/Koning/Konig/Konings etc. pp. or a “SS-Colonel” Thorvald.

#112

I have read such a story in his memours. But i think this is nothing more then provocation.
Probably some girl wished to get the attention to their person , for fun or with somthing els.
Endeed the duel was a real, but Koning/Thorvalds was a nice fary tell of SOviet newspaper reporters.
It was such convinient that Zaitsev himself has believed to it:)

#113

Wasn’t there also a very well known and successful woman sniper in the USSR?

#114

Although there were a lot of female snipers in the Red Army (e.g. german sniper Sepp Allerberger writes about a whole female sniper company in “Im Auge des Jägers”) I don’t recall a particular one.
However I do recall this czech woman which can be considered successful:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/other/800px-Marie_Ljalkov___with_SVT-40_rifle.html?g2_fromNavId=x0e5e9167

#115

A lot of soviet snipers were woman.
http://www.wio.ru/galgrnd/sniper/gal1.htm
Rosa SHanina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Shanina