This says nothing indeed.
As we know the famouse finnish sniper Simo Hayha claims about 400 ONLY for few month of Winter war 1939-40.(he totaly claimes over 500 during all the ww2)
The sniper activity can be very short but resultative.
Don’t too hurry my friend:)
Althought i do agree that Thorvalds/Konig never existed, we have a lot of evidences of sniper-duel in Stalingrad.
In fact Vasilij Zaitsev in his memours did not write about Thorvalds at all.
He wrote about GErmans experensive super-sniper who killed couple of soviet snipers and wounded another one.Zaitsev has got a special order to find and eliminate the super-sniper( also fact supported by the other Veterans, for instance the former commander of Stalingrad’s defence general Chuikov).
Initialy the name Thorvallds has rised to surface in Soviet press in 1943 , ostensibly the GErmans POWs called him during cross-testing.
Actualy this stroy have been highly “decorated” by other authors ( mostly journalists) with bu…st.True It have been made in ideological purposes.
But we have no reasones to deny the memours of Zaitsev himself.
Whatever the German supersniper was, the sniper duel was a REAL.
BTW the sweet “Class strugle fairy tell about shepherd/sniper form the Ural” WAS no more actual in 1942, becouse the GErman Army consisted mostly from the workers as much as the Red one.
The simple GErman workers killed the Russian ones very well , so in fact the famouse Bolshevics bu…sh about class solidarity HAS BEEN DENIED since the most beginning of war.Soviet propogand has been forced to RESTORE the “old-fashioned” Russian PATRIOTISM.They start to appelate to the national proudness.
SO indeed in the story of Zaitsev did not even touched the class origin of supposed Thorvalds- ALL the GErmans have been declared as enemy , independently of thier Class .
The famouse soviet “loudhailer of propogand” Ilia Erenburg calls to hate and kill all the GErmans since 1941.
Well, just take this one from me. If there had been a german sniper with that amount of confirmed kill by late '42, we would certainly know about him!
And concerning Simo Hayha…I absolutely don’t know how the finns did celebrate/award their “heroes” but I do know that finns are very quiet and tight-lipped people by nature, unlike germans and russians.:mrgreen:
Well you point is right and i do agree. Actualy the 400+ for 1942 looks suspective, but…
As i know the Zaitsev himself did claim 200+ althought he was a sniper ONLY for short time- since september 1942 till the feb 1943 when he was seriously wounded.So in fact he killed about 200 for few mounth too becouse after he has come back to front from hospital , he never has returned to the sniper service till the end of war.
This is well know fact from his biography.
And concerning Simo Hayha…I absolutely don’t know how the finns did celebrate/award their “heroes” but I do know that finns are very quiet and tight-lipped people by nature, unlike germans and russians.:mrgreen:
Did you ever see how the “quiet and tight-lipped” finns crushed the Russian Ice hockey team many times?
Never underestimate neither them nor their heroes.:)
This are surely reasonable numbers, also because I think that the Stalingrad battles were optimal sniper terrain.
Yes, but even when breaking noses and knocking out teeth Finns don’t talk too much I heard. :mrgreen:
Jude Law did pretty good in enemy at the gates but does anyone know more about him or major konig?
First of all, I have to say that that film was absolute rubbish. I’ve read many first hand accounts by soldiers in the Soviet Army in WW2 and never have I read anything so silly as what it depicts. The vast majority of young men and women willingly went into combat without any need to use the type of crude intimidation that ignorant film portrays. That being said I can recommend a great little book by Zaitsev himself which will quickly confirm what I just wrote. Its called ‘Notes of a Sniper’ by the man himself. Get it here:
http://www.amazon.com/Notes-Sniper-Vassili-Zaitsevs-Stalingrad/dp/0615121489
I’ve read it a few times and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Very well Innocenti.
Actualy you right about rubbish in that film.I fully agree.I have to add that the many scenes of film kinda the attack of soviet infantry under NKVD mashine-guns has been “invented” by authors of film
The Zaitsev’s original memours-book “There is no land beyond the Volga:Notes of sniper” migh be found here in russian.
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/zaytsev/index.html
Vassili entered military service in 1937 serving in the Russian pacific fleet as an accountant.When ww2 came he sent out many requests to go to the front and finally in 1942 his request was granted.
Vassili Zaitsevs first combat was in the battle for Stalingrad-He served in the 284th rifle division,His feats as a sniper in Stalingrad made him well known all over Russia. In January 1943 Vassili was wounded by a mortar that temporarily blinded him. Vassili recovered in Moscow(Febuary 1943)and while there was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union,Joseph Stalin was impressed with Zaitsevs feats and had Zaitsev write a combat report and had it published in the Soviet field manual.
In march 1943 Vassili returned back to combat this time with the new and improved Mosin Nagant PU sniper rifle and served under Vassili Chuikov-the 2 were like brothers Vassilis wife claims.Vassili took part in destroying the enemy in the Donbass, participated in the battle for the Dnieper, fought under the Odessa and on the river Dniester to name a few. At the end of the war Vassili had over 400 confirmed kills,Though the real number of kills is much higher…
Post war Vassili married and had several children and managed a factory in Kiev and visited Stalingrad(Volgograd) many times where he met with friends that served with him-he also spoke to crowds in the Volgograd museum-Vassili passed away on December 15th 1991.
About Major Koning,Vassili did have a duel in Stalingrad with a German sniper-Vassili claims it was Major Koning based on documents he took off this German snipers body. Marshall of the Soviet Union Vassili Chuikov also mentions Major Koing in his memoirs.
Post war in Germany Vassili was at a military meeting,A woman stood up and said she is the daughter of Major Koning and would like to speak with Vassili. The Russian KGB quickly evacuated Vassili to avoid any possible threat-That to me gives alot of proof to the duel.
Konings scope can be seen in the Moscow Armed Forces museum today,Vassili Zaitsevs rifle can be seen in the Volgograd museum today-the Volgograd museum opened a whole sniper exhibit in 2006 when Vassili was reburied in Volgograd.
Enemy at the gates im not too fond of myself,Its to inaccurate and said by many to be somewhat of an anti communist film. The Stalingrad veterans went as far as trying to get the movie banned.
Regards
This issue has been discussed many times before here.
A german sniper Major König/Koning/Thorvald -or whatever the soviet propaganda called him- never existed.
BTW, both “Vassili Zaitsev” threads have been merged.
That is possible,Im yet to see any documents on Koning except for those in Russian archives.
A German veteran of Stalingrad tells of a sniper being flown in to pick off the Russian snipers in a ww2 documentary I seen,The vet said their commander told the sniper-Their snipers are over there,you must find a spot to the left to find them’ He didnt have a chance the vet said he was killed imediatley. Most likely there were a few German snipers flown in. But who knows if this Koning was one of them…
The duel is over rated I think due to Enemy at the gates,If Koning was not real it doesnt take away Zaitsevs great feats as a sniper,Vassili for sure was not just a tool of the Soviet propaganda machine as shown in Enemy at the gates.
Regards
No doubt, Zaitsev was an extraordinary soldier/sniper. As I mentioned before - it’s not unlikely that german counter snipers were set on Zaitsev by german leadership but surely no Major or Colonel (Thorvald) with 400 kills.
Agreed,People have told me that no German sniper was ever even a Major-wold this be true ?
Heres a photo of the German snipers scope that Zaitsev took off his rifle,Ive been wondering what kind of scope it is looks like a Zeiss but im not sure-anyone know? Thanks
Regards
Look at the three most successful german snipers (Hetzenauer, Allerberger, Wirnsberger) , no one of them had a higher rank as Sergeant.
The scope does look like a “Hensoldt Dialytan 4x” to me.
Zaytsev wrote a biography titled “Notes of a Sniper” where he does describe a duel with a very skilled German sniper. The duel was similar but much less dramatic than the propaganda created duel where he killed the fictional Thorvald/König but Zaytsev himself only claimed ‘a very skilled sniper.’ It makes one wonder why the Moscow Armed Forces Museum continues to display the scope that they claim is from Thorvald’s rifle.
Probably because:
- It’s still the official story
- It’s a good story
- It is still historically significant in the greater context of WWII.
Also i doubt museums have the time to constantly update every exhibition as new facts come to light.
Well one would think that a museum would have people working to determine what is factual and what isn’t. Or maybe I am falling prey to a Western line of thinking again. Don’t have to book on hand right now but seeing as Zaytsev died 18 years ago and wrote his book before then there has been quite a while to update their information.
Not Western line of thinking more idealist. In an ideal world there would be a essay with the scope telling the story and alternative views. In the real world there isn’t time and money to do that with every exhibit and most people won’t care enough to warrent the effort.