Waffen SS

Your questions about my grandfather, etc, are nonsense. It has nothing to do with this thread. I am not a nazi apologist. You still offer no proof that the non-concentration camp waffen SS go out of their way to kill POWs any more than the allies have done.

My point is that there are comparable allied massacres.

Your the one thats being insulting. Naive, nazi apologist, do you like hitler and nazis??, etc.

BBC programs are run by people that would, obviously, be a bit more biased towards the waffen-ss then real historians that write, research, and tell unobjective history.

'all waffen SS not drafted are war criminals"

You have proof of that???

From “Parachute Infantry” by David Kenyon Webster (on D-Day in HQ Company, 2d Battalion, 506 PIR, 101st Airborne), p. 21:

“Above all, kill 'em! We can’t be dragging a lot of prisoners around with us at night.” (Said by a captain during the briefing for D-Day.

From “Band of Brothers” by Stephen Ambrose, p. 73:

“[General] Taylor told Malarkey’s platoon to fight with knives until daylight, ‘and don’t take any prisoners.’”

For examples, read Max Hastings’ “Armageddon”, where instances of US soldiers (and Brits and Canadians) routinely killing Germans after they had surrendered were commonplace, as well as Germans killing Allies. The Allies weren’t above committing massacres themselves. From “Armageddon”, p. 101:

“Some sixty German PoWs were killed by the 11th Armored Division, new to combat, whose men believed for some hours that they were not supposed to take prisoners. Patton wrote in his diary of ‘some unfortunate incidents in the shooting of prisoners. (I hope we can conceal this)’.”

Covering up atrocities wasn’t anything new to Patton; during the Italian campaign in 1943, units from the 45th Infantry Division committed several massacres of German and Italian PoWs. The investigations were stopped by Patton…

SS-Brigadeführer Kurt Meyer (12th SS Hiterjugend) whose unit - the 25th Panzer Grenadier Regiment - was involved in a number of PoW executions in the days that followed D-Day. After the war, Meyer was courtmartialed for war crimes in relation to these PoW killings. He was originally sentenced to death, then commuted to life imprisonment, then reduced to 14 years with time off for good behaviour, then released in 1954. Meyer died in 1961 and on the occasion of his death, Maj-General Harry Foster, who presided over Meyer’s court martial, had this to say to his son Tony:

I asked if there had ever been any doubt in his mind of Meyer’s guilt.
“Not the slightest. He was just as guilty of murder as I was at the time… or any other senior officer in the field during a battle. The difference between us was that I was on the winning side. That makes a big difference.”
Had the courtmartial been a sham then? Vindictiveness by the victor over the vanquished?
“I don’t believe Meyer pulled the trigger on his captives or gave orders to execute any of them. But I’m sure he knew what happened. SS discipline was such that he couldn’t help but know. But does that make him guilty of murder anymore than I’m guilty for knowing about the German prisoners my troops killed?”
“Then why did you convict him?”
“Because I had no choice according to those rules of warfare dreamt up by a bunch of bloody barrackroom lawyers who never heard a shot fired in anger. In wartime a commanding officer is responsible for the actions of his men.”
“But that’s absurd!”
“It’s also military justice.”
“Then where is the truth?”
“Ah! I suppose in the final analysis it lies in the conscience of the victor.” (From the book “Meeting of Generals” by Tony Foster.)

Dirlewange brigade was composed of poachers/ men from punishment battalions. Try feldgrau.com to see if you can get any clues.

Hosenfield, equating the actions of allied forces during the eleven months of European combat operations with six years of SS operations in occupied countries is pretty thin. The reputation of the SS for brutality was ingrained well before 1944 and therefore the treatment they recieved on the battlefield can be seen as understandable.

Looking at the SS on a microl level ( some good , some bad) is something that only time can afford. The SS as an organisation has a group responsibility for the atrocities they commited regardless of their designation or role as the issue is ideology and so there is little difference between one of Meyer’s tankers or a guard at a death camp.

The idea that the murder of six million Jews from western and eastern Europe was facilitated by cowards and amputees is laughable and appologist.

Not wishing to be rude but how old are you Hosenfield, I would guess that you are not out of your teens.

[quote=“Gen. Sandworm”]Might I point out that no country is innocent. As most have agreed history is written by the victors. The American/British are guilty of many things that would be today considered war crimes. Firebombing of many towns. Such are the acts of war. The only real difference is that the SS where involved in one of the worst systematic killings of all time. However…regardless of some of their horrible acts alot of them were not involved in horrible acts and did fight bravely for their country. Dupped as they might have been by a crazy bastard. The did what they thought was right and so did we. If the Nazi’s had won the war im sure there would have been many allies brought up on charges of war crimes. However I dont really know how Hitler could have ever hidden the fact of what he did to the Jews. Anyhow I thats my take on it.

Thats my take on it, too. and im not equating 6 years on the eastern front (where the actions done by both sides were horrible), just talking about the the last year of the war when the allies fought the waffen ss in number.

I suppose you would have to have been Jewish or a civillian in an occupied country at the time to really understand.

FYI the area behind the eastern front was occupied territory and suffered many atrocities at the hands of the SS, as this appered to be their SOP. You wont find many people between the German Border and Moscow who share your admiration of the SS. What the Red Army did is not the issue here if you want to pick it up on another topic feel free.

Not just this. While the Wehrmacht gets accepted as normal soldiers, the SS is still being hated in France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Italy in Western Europe as well.
The Waffen-SS were first and foremost the armed wing of the Nazi party, when Himmler pushed for a private army after the fall of Röhm.
I never understood the fascination with those NS thugs.

Jan

Right. So you still avoid the main question, and have once again turned the premise around now to the last year of the war. The trouble with this premise is that its difficult to view the last year of the war in a vacuum. The SS already had a reputation before D-Day. So to try and explain more about the SS we have to take a trip back in time.

On 17 Aug 1938 Hitler wrote:

‘The SS Verfuegungstruppe is neither a part of the Wehrmacht nor a part of the police. It is a standing armed unit exclusively at my disposal.’

So we can definitely see here that the SS was not part of the Army. He also goes on to say the following relating to SS mobilization:

“In that case it comes completely under military laws and regulations, but remains a unit of the NSDAP politically.”

Politically then, the Party always retains control of the SS. Im sure there is no disputing this.
Leading on from this the SS were political soldiers, an extract from their recruiting pamphlet states:

“If you answer the call of the Waffen SS and volunteer to join the ranks of the great Front of SS Divisions, you will belong to a corps which has from the very beginning been directed toward outstanding achievements, and, because of this fact, has developed an especially deep feeling of comradeship. You will be bearing arms with a corps that embraces the most valuable elements of the young German generation. Over and above that you will be especially bound to the National Socialist ideology.”

There is no doubt that they were to be Nazis first and foremost. The formation of the Armed SS was to be around a core of Deaths Head SS which was to be used as a Skeleton of men to flesh out the coming SS Divisions. Again from the Aug 1938 edict by Hitler:

“The skeleton corps-which up to now were units of the two replacement units for the short time training of the reinforcement of the SS-Totenkopf Verbaende-will be transferred to the SS-Verfuegungstruppe as skeleton crews of the replacement units for that unit.”

Now I realise all this was before the war started and certainly not in the last year that we want to focus on. But it serves as the basis for looking ahead and establishes that the Armed SS were always meant to be an arm of the Party.

We now have to skip ahead to April 1943 and a speech by Himmler:

“One basic principle must be the absolute rule for the SS men : We must be honest, decent, loyal and comradely to members of our own blood and to nobody else. What happens to a Russian, to a Czech, does not interest me in the slightest. What other nations can offer in the way of good blood of our type, we will take, if necessary, by kidnapping their children and raising them here with us. Whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only so far as we need them as slaves for our culture; otherwise, it is of no interest to me. Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an antitank ditch interests me only insofar as the antitank ditch for Germany is finished.”

“That is what I want to instill into this SS and what I’ believe I have instilled in them as one of the most sacred laws of the future.”

So says the head of the SS, the year before D-Day.

Now we can come to the premise that the Waffen-SS were largely unaware of the Holocaust. This was the original premise before it was slanted to read, In the last year of the War the allies committed as many atrocities as the SS in the West.

I just don’t believe it, the core of the SS certainly knew. Right up until the end of the war the SS were mainly volunteers imbued with Nazism. You cannot even attempt to separate the SS from the Party and therefore they are tarred with the same brush. To simply say that they were ordinary blokes is not true, they weren’t.

And therein, in my opinion, lies the differences between the fighting man of the Allied democracies and the SS. The SS were volunteers who were draw into the organization through a combination of means. They were party soldiers who genuinely believed in the Master Race and had been indoctrinated for years by the Nazi regime. As such they did not have the same respect for other societies that the Allies in the West did.

And finally

By 1944, with the Concentration Camps fully integrated with the Waffen-SS and under the control of the WVHA, a standard practice developed to rotate SS members in and out of the camps, based on manpower needs and also to give assignments to wounded Waffen-SS officers and soldiers who could no longer serve in front line combat duties. This rotation of personnel is the main argument that nearly the entire SS knew of the Concentration Camps, and what actions were committed within, making the entire organization liable for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Notice the word rotate! I fail to see why the majority could somehow not know!

It was for these reasons that the Nuremberg commission declared the whole of the SS as War criminals.

The Western allies did not hate other races, there were no political Armies, they just wanted to get the job over with. Unfortunately though, the SS will no doubt have brought some of the actions carried out by the Allies upon themselves, by their very treatment of the races they attempted to enslave, and it was to be enslavement.

In conclusion then, how can anyone admire this organization? I think it was particularly vile to be honest.

Of course now we have to jump to 1944. As Ive droned on for long enough here I will attempt to put that right in another post.

Sources: Various Nazi speeches, 1938 onwards and extracts from the Nuremberg trial files.

On 17 Aug 1938 Hitler wrote:

‘The SS Verfuegungstruppe is neither a part of the Wehrmacht nor a part of the police. It is a standing armed unit exclusively at my disposal.’
So we can definitely see here that the SS was not part of the Army. He also goes on to say the following relating to SS mobilization:

The waffen SS is under operational control of the army and is supplied through Heer channels. SS verfugunstruppe is a SS standarten that built up “2nd ss das reich”. This unit, isn’t rosy like the 3rd SS. A lot of SS divisions were in fact built out of army officers/NCOs.

My grandfather was originally an army officer but he got forcibly transferred to a SS Panzer division when the “elites” suffered shortages. He wasn’t a member of the nazi party either. Neither were many of his collegues.
In fact, he didn’t even wear the Waffen-SS tunic. The only way someone could distinguish him as waffen ss was the fact that he sometimes wore the SS camo smock.

“The skeleton corps-which up to now were units of the two replacement units for the short time training of the reinforcement of the SS-Totenkopf Verbaende-will be transferred to the SS-Verfuegungstruppe as skeleton crews of the replacement units for that unit.”

The orginal waffen ss standarten were SS-verguegunstruppe (der fuhrer, deutchland) , Germania, and leibstandarte adolf hitler. Der fuhrer and deutchland built up the the 2nd SS “das reich” which isn’t a rosy unit like I said before. your statement merely confirms that there was a “SS totenkopft element to 2nd SS das reich. Which isn’t the organization in the whole.
And, the Leibstandarte adolf hitler built up 1st SS. and Germania”
builting up 5th ss Wiking.

there are 30+ brigades/regiments/divisions of the waffen -SS

“Now I realise all this was before the war started and certainly not in the last year that we want to focus on. But it serves as the basis for looking ahead and establishes that the Armed SS were always meant to be an arm of the Party.”

My statements are: The waffen-SS had some divisions with questionable personnel. A lot of these questionable men were officers/ncos/grunts of the totenkopft. They, contrary to what some have said, received far different training then the regular trooper. Their training was instigated by Eicke, which stressed political indoctrination.

By consequence, the blackest unit was 3rd SS totenkopf and dirlewanger brigade.

Regular Waffen-SS training was the same as army training. Except for the fact that they received lectures 3 times a week on nazism. Which doesn’t mean they would , as if on autopilot, comit warcrimes as norm.

Many officers/ncos/privates of the waffen-SS , even in mid-war years, were soldiers from the army, airforce, and navy. Most weren’t even members of the party. An enormous fraction were conscripts.

And no, there weren’t plenty of “volunteers”.

A lot of 'ss" divisions were built on regular army officers.

i’ve already given you the news about “holocaust knowledge”. Secondly, there weren’t THAT many totenkopf personnel. There were half a million waffen-SS soldiers. Totenkopf personnel was a tiny, tiny fraction.

Whos admiring the Waffen-SS as a whole?? There were evil personnel and there were heroic personnel.

The most notorious, is Jochen Peiper, but he wasn’t even a member of the nazi party.

There were elements of the waffen-SS that fought very well and had heroic qualities.

i disagree that the “Waffen SS conscipts/volunteers are all war criminals”

IE> You have SS Wiking, which was one of best , that have a clean record.

There are even elements of “Das reich” and "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler " that have clean records. The elite 9th SS hohenstahen and 10ths ss frundberg are fairly clean also. During market garden, they treated the first para well and helped the enemy wounded.

You miss the point.

They were the political army of the Nazis. They were all branded war criminals by Nuremberg, that may not be palatable, but it is true.

Edited to add.

However, you have brought me a fair way to your point of view but the above has no references. In fact you have provided no reference yet that the majority of the SS knew nothing of the holocaust and I doubt you can either.

I agree with the fact that i can find no documented incident by the Wiking Division. The bulk of which were non German and would be seen as traitors in their own countries, but thats another argument.

Osprey’s Waffen SS men of arms series 1-38 division

war crimes

                                         1 SS, 2 , 3, 4, 7, 8, 12, 16, 24, 36  

known calculated mass atrocities 2, 2, lots, lots, lots,lots, 1, 2, lots,lots.

out of the 38 ss divisons/regiments/brigades/battalions 10 have some sort of mass killing crime record on the eastern/western/italian fronts. 6 have consistent records. 3rd and 36th (dirwirager) being the worst.

and nuremberg, in some ways, was a kangaroo court. Many of the lawyers were Jews and convicted ss men had their lives saved by allied officers.

But I think the ones that are “lots” deserve a criminal reputation. units like the 12th ss had one major “heat of battle” crime which many allied units have done.

Aha! Now the truth is surfacing. Im glad that you have pointed out the above. But how do you arrive at this ‘Kangaroo Court’ and more informatively ‘Jews

I dont mean to be picky here but what is that supposed to mean!

well, obviously jews would be extremely biased.

and the victorious allied public, of course.

many men who didn’t breach military justice paid with their lives, or a long prison sentence.

many men who did comit crimes or were accused of crimes were removed from nuremburg to the ussr, usa, and britain because they had some use. they were scientists, intelliegence agents, etc.

they got off the hook because they were useful.

Extremely Biased, at least the Murdering filth got a trial, I cant find any documented trials of the Jews before they were thrown into the furnace!

Extremely Biased, at least the Murdering filth got a trial, I cant find any documented trials of the Jews before they were thrown into the furnace![/quote]

many didn’t have anything to do with that. anyway, all six of the murderous units served on the eastern front and were captured and executed in the end.

i believe 3rd ss totenkopft made it the allies, then, hehe, they were passed back to the russians.,.

from odessa thread:

thats not what im saying. there are branches of the ss that were criminal to a sick degree. but the (waffen ) (read:different branch) ss was not criminal to that level. out of the 38 waffen ss divisions, six were highly criminal(composed of concentration camp personnel and anti-partison units) and ruined the reputations of the organization as a whole.

Elite units like 5th SS wiking, 17th ss gotz von, 9th SS hohenstophen, 10th SS frundsberg fought very well and have no war crimes record. in fact, around 3/4 of the waffen ss don’t have war crimes record at all, big or small.

the top dogs of the waffen ss, Hausser, Dietrich,Bittrich, Meyer, and Eicke, only Eicke was considered a true war criminal. but he was kia in 1942. The rest didn’t get the death penalty at nuremburg and were imprisoned fairly lightly in comparison, despite all efforts of the allies to find incriminating evidence. these men were out of prison in the early-mid 50s.

its not true that the ENTIRE waffen SS were baby eaters.

furthermore that “evidence” is rather weak. These were words that came out of politician’s mouths that did not fully transfer with reality. what the (WAFFEN) ss turned into was a pseudo-army of variable quality with no preference for equipment. half of the waffen-ss were non-german, many of the personal varied (composed of conscipts, transferred army, airforce,navy) himmler eventually lost control once the ss got so big in 1943; it became managed by many regular army generals.

while waffen ss men were regularly shifted in and out of concentration camps, this was limited to select divisions like the ss-totenkopft, 4th ss poleizi, 7th ss florgein geyer, and 16th reichfuhrer ss. There was a strong intention to keep knowledge in certain units and not “putrify” the rest. since more then half of the ss were non-german,

one of the books is the SS: Hitler’s instrument of terror, ill dig up the other one when i get home.
go read these books.t