"Do you still stand by your statement that most SS never knew about the holocaust, and if so, please point us to somewhere that substantuates this.
In my view, most Germans knew something was going on, thats not to say they condoned it, but its false t claim they knew nothing of it."
The Waffen SS “concentration camp” guards/henchmen were from the Totenkopftverband(spelling oops). The personel from the totenkopft were, if combat ready, sent to the 3rd SS Panzer division. However, there were times where small numbers of ex-totenkopft guards would filter into other Waffen SS formations. While the rumor was rampant, it was not widely believed by non-totenkopft Waffen SS soldiers. These germans/northwest europeons didn’t believe that their government would do such a thing, so they regarded rumors as false. Also, men that served as concentration guards were usually especially shameful of their deeds and would, for the most part, keep quiet to avoid getting into trouble. It’s not prudent to boast that you’ve killed civilians.
And, about the Orador massacre, my book says that the captain that issueed the orders was court martialed but was KIA before he could be brought to trial.
On the western front/italian front, the tendancy for Waffen SS soldiers to commit war crimes is the same as the allied tendancy.
Hosenfield could you please hit the quote button. It makes your post alot easier to read. Just hit quote. Then just type under it. That way we can know who you are referencing. Thanks
“Now admitedly these were technically inovative but they all took up valuable resources. Why have 27 various kinds of Panzer? Why not concentrate on the Panther and its derivatives? Because they were obsessed with bigger is better instead of thinking about logistics and ease of maintenance.”
Also, lack of fuel and trained panzermen. Petrol was a commodity since germany had few oil wells and most of the oil was provided by Rumania. Since the germans didn’t have the men or fuel, they opted for high quality. Even though a big tiger panzer is fuel guzzling, it doesn’t consume more fuel than a couple medium tanks.
"By the end of the war Germanies once famous mainly light armoured striking force has been reduced to lumbring fuel hungry monsters. You can admire a king Tiger, but at that time it was utter madness to build it when you could build maybe 5-10 Hetzer which would have done them better. "
The King Tiger cost 300,000 Reichmarks. The Hetzers cost around 100,00 each. The Tiger tank battalions have an average of 12 to 1 confirmed combat ratio against enemy tanks. Read “Slegehammers” , an american book.
“Then we come to the air, The ME262 was undoubtedly the best Jet fighter, but it could have been in service a year earlier. There are many many more examples of this. When the Allies were getting on with it, the Axis were still vying for favours and backbiting and creating personal armies.”
Goering was a moron.
“I am always amazed that they lasted so long, not that they were better soldiers.”
First cadre german troops were trained 2-6 years. German officers were trained for 4-6 years. Later on, as the situation got worse, the germans still trained their men more thoroughly and longer then the allies. IE. even in early 1944, with training cuts, german officers were being trained for 1 year while US officers 3 months. German Grunts were being trained for 4 months, longer than US officers!
"Anyway slightly off topic I know, rant over.
yes.
Edit by Gen. Sandworm. See its not that hard. Hit edit and take alook at what i did. [/quote]
Man I dont know what age you are, but you cant be this niave.
You continually seem to be an apologist and making excuses for the SS. The tendancy for SS soldiers to commit warcrimes was not the same! They did it in Dunkirk in 1940, they did it to Canadians in Normandy, Americans during the Bulge. Not just in 1’s or 2’s during the battle, but as a deliberate act after the battle.
Please answer these 2 questions:
Would you have wanted Germany to win WW2?
Has the fact that you stated on another thread that your Grandfather was an SS Captain clouded your views about this organisation?
There was a really interesting BBC series here the other year, the Nazis, a warning from history. If you have any access to it I think you should watch it, perhaps even read the book?
My real maternal grandfather was a Waffen-SS senior corporal. He was involved in or at least witnessed attrocities and war crimes during the crushing of the Warsaw ghetto uprising in Spring 1943. He later got killed on the southern flank of the Kursk battle in July 1943.
I don’t know yet which unit he was in. I hope it was not Dirlewanger’s criminal bunch.
I appreciate an honest answer. Dirlewangers Bunch were involved in the second Warsaw uprising too and then went on to do the same in Czechoslovakia I believe.
Also http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=763
on which I quote:
Area of operations
Poland (General Government) (1 Sep 1940 - 17 Feb 1942)
Belorussia (Anti-Partisan) (17 Feb 1942 - 5 Aug 1944)
Reference material on this unit
Hans-Peter Klausch - Anti-faschisten in SS Uniform: Schicksal und Widerstand der deutschen politischen KZ-Haeftlingen, Zuchthaus-und Wehrmachtsgefangenen in der SS-Sonderformation Dirlewanger
French L. MacLean - The Cruel Hunters: SS-Sonder-Kommando Dirlewanger Hitler’s Most Notorious Anti-Partisan Unit
Rolf Michaelis - Das SS-Sonderkommando Dirlewanger: Ein Beispiel deutscher Besatzungspolitik in Weißrussland.
End quote.
Quoted from axishistory:
SS-Regiment Dirlewanger was formed in Aug 1944 when SS-Sonderkommando Dirlewanger was upgraded to a regiment.
It took part in fighting the Polish Home Army in Warsaw and was upgraded to SS-Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger Dec 1944.
Commanders
SS-Oberführer Dr. Oskar Dirlewanger (? Aug 1944 - ? Dec 1944)
Area of operations
Poland (Warsaw Uprising) (5 Aug 1944 - 15 Aug 1944)
Czechoslvakia (Slovakian Uprising) (16 Oct 1944 - 30 Oct 1944
Man I dont know what age you are, but you cant be this niave.
You continually seem to be an apologist and making excuses for the SS. The tendancy for SS soldiers to commit warcrimes was not the same! They did it in Dunkirk in 1940, they did it to Canadians in Normandy, Americans during the Bulge. Not just in 1’s or 2’s during the battle, but as a deliberate act after the battle.
Please answer these 2 questions:
Would you have wanted Germany to win WW2?
Has the fact that you stated on another thread that your Grandfather was an SS Captain clouded your views about this organisation?
There was a really interesting BBC series here the other year, the Nazis, a warning from history. If you have any access to it I think you should watch it, perhaps even read the book?[/quote]
Dunkirk, canadians,bulge, those incidents involve less than 90 victims.
the atrocity commited at dunkirk was by 3rd SS totenkopft division. I already said this is a bad bunch.
The Canadians, and british during normandy commited warcrimes against german troops, also. They tied captured german officers in the front of their tanks and drove into battle… The candians accuse the SS of what , 3 murders!!?
Battle of the bulge, out of the hundreds of prisoners KG peiper took, these 90 someodd men were the only victims. This execution was taken out, unfortunately, for the sake of security once the threat of encirclement was realized.
It sounds bad, but on certain situations its simply too grave a threat to security to take prisoners.
IE., The 101st airborne commited massacres that have, conviently, been covered up. IE.Lt. Ronald Speirs killed 20 german prisoners in cold blood.
Allied troops were deliberately given orders by the higher ups to kill all surrendered german paratroops and waffen ss during the bulge.
Where’s your proof that the Waffen SS commited much more warcrimes in the West??
Stop calling me an apologist. Victors write history. historical events can be emphasized no matter the significance for the sake of propoganda.
Secondly, stop watching BBC tv shows to learn history. Go read some books.
fyrefly,i don´t want to be against you,but i think he isn´t going to banned because he isn´t insulting anybody.
he has a granfather from the waffen ss and reads books (he said),and you search on google!,and watch the BBC!!!.
If you hate the SS,you don´t need to don´t respect them.
btw,the waffen-ss are the best troops in the world!
