Nice one, a war crimes apologist.
Along the lines of “they had to do it there was no choice” still the Russian military is slow at learning as has been seen in Chechnia. :evil:
I don’t protect theirs crimes, if you don’t understand yet. I only told that they wasn’t maniacs, like many thought…
About Chechnya (I know, thats a little off topic, but can’t stay that without answer) Chechnya maybe conquered in ANY day, if the our politics need that. The sparing time there is only economical reasons. Our politics making huge moneys by selling weapons to other side…
Komissar I understand what you mean and I agree with your point of view.
Yes you did “defend” their crimes you said they had no other choice of course they did.
Dont give me that “we could win any day” stuff, the Russian military is bogged down in a “Partisan” war precisely due to their heavy handed and brutal repression of the civilian population.
Don’t be so naive. If you planning and making agressive war you need something like SS. You may call it any name, by the goals was constant. For example, the USA have now “field tribunals” in Iraq. They may kill ANY Iraqs sitizens by own jugjement. Where is a difference? But the SU and German in NKVD and SS have a professionals and they making theirs works a lot effective. For example, after ww2, tatars nation was declared a traitors, because they met a Hitler like liberatior. Stalin made an order - execute tatars. The whole nation was partially killed and another part was dapartured to Siberia in 24 hours!!! Such effectivety can’t be ajust by regular army forces.
About Chechnya, again. Looks you don’t from Russia… Even children here know about that fact, that our top politics sold the weapons to the other side. They making money on the blood of nation. National tradition, I think…
and with that statement you disqualify yourself totally, have you ever been to Iraq? Do you know anything about Iraq? Do you know about anything at all?
IMHO, you don’t know what are you talking. I wasn’t in Iraq, but some of my friend was volonteers in Iraq army at the first days of war. The students who ended BGTU very often working military specialists in any coutries. Also we had a lod of students from Iraq and Iran. I know what I’m talking about. How you want to protect the army, when even children trying to kill you soldiers, and throwing knifes in theirs necks? The water and food that is poisoned, some of people trying to set an explosives on the roads… That not easy to make safety for own soldiers. And only hard methods can made any results.
“Russia is maintaining the war In Chechnya to create cashflow for your nation.”
How many weapons have been “sold” to chechen rebels by the Russian government and how many weapons have been “liberated” from Russians after a firefight?
How expensive is it to mount an ongoing campaign in a dissident territory giving “free” ammuntion and weapons to the Russian troops, whilst charging Chechens for the same privilege. I would be interested to see if this practice made economic sense. I imagine that the War In chechnya has not resulted in a net increase in the nations GDP, but i may be wrong.
Away from that, I do not feel there is only one way to deal with a dissident population in occupied territory. It is possible to target the active cells of resistance without engaging the entire civilian population of a region. Counter insurgency by British forces in Malaya was vastly superior to the alternatives and removed the Red threat alot more effectively than assembling all the women and children in the villages and threatening to shoot a women or child each hour until the resistance groups came forward. The Malayan operation was not an army of occupation in the same way as the Nazi operations were, do not get me wrong. However if we are discussing the problems of removing dangerous elements of a society whilst protecting the civilian population from the effects of war I feel it shows the point successsfully.
Stating that it is the “only way, and necessary” is tantamount to claiming it is the only way for it to be done. Which army (save from the Russians - who i believe had a rather feasome leader at the time) would accept this was standard practice for occupation. To say that this is correct procedure suggests that officers “should” be versed in the best ways of decimating civilian morale though rape and pillage.
Decimating civilian Morale encourages resistance, it does not quell it!
Hearts and Minds! - Fallujah!
The SS were not a merry band of fighting men for the preservation of their homeland, They were aggressors and mindless automatons of a Fascist, Xenpphode racist regime.
I think we need move “Chechnya question” to another topic… But when I don’t said the seling weapon is official course of goverment. It’s crime, without doubts. But this crime, unfortunatly continues many years…
About SS, mans, you prefer to split a world on black and white. Simple, but not smart. I already told, that any army wich made agressive actions, can’t stay on occupied territory without something like SS. ANY country. And we are here discuss not about who was right in ww2, but about forces and theirs effectiveness in theirs work.
Hmm… hard methods ? History got a lot examples when these methods hawe worked well finally ? India 1850-1947 ? Afghanistan 1979-1989 ? East Europa after 1945 ? USSR 1941-1945 ? Where hard methods have worked finally ?
Stalin’s methods heve worked in chechen’s deportation in 1944 once, but it make to us headache today - better for us, if they lived compactly in Checnya today, but they now everywhere, i tought in Moskow you can find more chechens than in Chechnya.
200 years ago some goverment would try to kill all undesirable peoples, even undeserable nations and it hawe worked well. But not taday - Miloshevich can talk about it a lot if he would.
Hard actions call harder re-actions and each monster can be de-monsterated finally. Especially with today’s weapon ability.
All history of occupations have one end. Don’t matter how much weapon was sold to rebels from opposing army.
One good method i know - way how muslims make they’s occupation - without weapon, without army - they just dissolved in countries, then make a lots of childrens… look at Europe today and you’ll see what i meand. In london much easy see muslims on a street than englishman.
Win in Chechnya in one day ? He-he… i was there few times, once just year before war…
No way win this war by army, without sociaety support. Have you noticed one thing - today’s TV never say - “Russian army” or “Russian forces” or even “Russian troops”… but “Federal forces”, “Federals” - seems like Russia don’t hawe more soldier, but some kind of allien’s army without any goverment’s sighns on uniform. No flags, no patches, just federals from middle of nowhere.
And when media in Russia talked about killed hostages in Iraq (allways not armed civilians, by the way, never soldiers or officers, but civilians) they say “Hostage was executed”, not “assasinated” or “killed” but “executed”, as though the speech went about state lawful businesses.
What side in war borrows the society - does great matter. If society got no side in some war - that war never ended. Indifferently society allways good basement for wars and terrorism. Indifferently society deserved to be occupated, as France in WWII… poor bastards just a waited when allies do something with nazis… really “white flag fabric”.
I’m not against muslims, i’m not against chechens - but i’m totally againts terrorism in any kind, selfmaked or based on goverment. Not matter what is purpose of this terrorism. For my not matter what is a future purpose - i gust despise any who haven’t balls to fight with armed force, prefering fight armed up to teeth against unarmed civilians.
Maybe that because of my bad english… I’m also against violence and terrorism. But the violence and terrorism - unfortunatly is a part of our being. Pretorian, you was a cop and must know it more than others. Violence is birth for more violence, it’s fact, but also you can’t heal the terrorism only by society methods. Religios or nazi’s fanatics can only be stopped by power. For example, one of my friend (he was my collegemate) from Iraq wrote to me, that his little sister(12 years) killed the american soldier (cut him, when he slept) and she was assasinated in front of village citizens without any judje. Who right in this situation? I can’t give answer. I can understood a girl, I can understood occupation forces… I already told: world can be splited on white and black. There are enough colors. Sometimes the goverment forces must do a dirty work. Jungle law - “kill or be killed” is live til now. Maybe in far-far future society will be healed from it, but now… The world is full of violence and ours “like it” “hate it” or so, can’t do anything with that…
Oh… not black and white ? In colour ? I hope - in Panavision ? :lol:
Okay, i try to close my eyes, picture myself in SS uniform…
Some village in Belorussia. I and my coolegues drive all inhabitants of this village in one big barn… childrens, wimen, old people… no one soldiers, just civilians… We drive all in big barn, then we set fire on this barn… screams, begs (what a ugly language they have !)… smell of burning flash, just like BBQ in holyday at backside of my home. Some little children escape from butning barn - we shoot them, but our officer ordered cease fire - to save our ammo. Screems went louder, flame rised - and we catchng childrens and trouw them in fire…
Ja-ja, naturlich !
Is it only govermet bussiness, noting personal - i just serving to my goverment, it will make live in my country better. We make agressive action in this wild land, we must be proud - we are SS, we must clear that village. Nothing personal, i’m just soldier and i execute orders only… i can live with it and i’m in right way and feel myself good… I’m smart ass, i not hawe any lack of conscience and compassion. It’s easy - just set fire, shoot in nape, nothing personal, really smart safe way to lead a war.
I’m blond creature, arian. I have all right to wipe out this bastards from Earth face. We need this land and they don’t deserve to be alive.
And i’m pretty damn effective !
I can picture it in clear, bright colors, not only in b/w… as well as face of bastard, who was NKVD private and shoot in back of my grandfather during my grandfather attack nazis. Safest way to fight - just shoot in back, never face with enemy - they should fight with enemy, and i’m should force it…
Nothing personal, Komissar Ombrok, just my grandfather really was penalty-squad soldier during WWII. Before war he was a policeman, in 1938 was captured by NKVD and in 1941 went in war. He survived there, and i hawe seen two .45 bullet wounds in he’s back - from Thomson, NKVD like use Thomsons to shoot in back…
I clearly know - in any wars goverment will got enough people to burning villages or shooting in nape. But i shall never test of respect for these people, for me is it greatest difference - between fight at war and shoot in nape prisoners and civilians.
Good post there BC, Malaya’s always a good example of the correct way to do things.
Just like to make the pedant’s point that it was a Nazi not a Fascist regime.
Yep. That was so. Pretty damn effective. Simple and easy “mass-production” killing. For our society - blood maniacs, for own goverment - useble professionals. Normal situation to any occupation forces. If you want to destroy such types of “professionals” you must destroy the roots - goverments with agressive plans. But eradications the goverment of any country by invasion - it’s birth of “professionals” from your own side. Closed circle of violence.
Right, fanatics of any kind should be stopped, and good for all if they will be stopped froever. With power. But is it possible in one case - when society not at side of fanatics. Or if now whole country - religios fanatics…
I’m not master of english language, i just like that language, t have not a lot expirience in it. But i offer one correction - iraq girl assasinated soldier (at my look is it homicide in clear case), than US troops killed (or executed) that girl. With or without court - i don’t know today’s local laws… But i can say honestly - i will shoot any creature, not matter - girl, woman, oldmen - who try to kill or even kill my army’s friends. Without any doubts.
I also can understood both sides of this story, and will never sleep in a case of some iraq girl will be near me with knife.
If this story happend in Ukraine, for example in 1941-1945 - all villager will be killed.
I should note one difference - this girl maked she’s choise and payd for she’s descision.
Was she killed with court or without - it allways make me sic - like in case with Budanov… at war usual laws don’t applicable.
But we talk about SS ?
They (some squads, not all) make really ugly things. And i can’t say - it was needfull to win a war… probably if they don’t do it - they’ll win. When army burning villages as penalty - these army never win. It only can put exasperation in hearts. Not submissiond and cooperation - but exasperation and desperation (a lot of -tion…). And revenge.
In case if occupants bring better live conditions, cooperate with cittizens and never do something in SS style - they can hope at good end of mission. Good example - Thailand, they still thankfull to USA for protection from commies in 1950s. Or Mongolia. Or France in all case of occupation 
Funny about France. Germans looks like a guests, not like occupants there…
Protection politics also good. But you need an enemy from wich you protect. Yep. If SS wasn’t nazis organization fanatically used racial thoughts, they may achcieved a lot, aspecially at the Ukraine. But any organization of such types strongly depends on political course. That was i told before. Roots of violence not in the such types of organizations. The such organiztions is children of violence-based goverments.
Thanks I read all topics here…
Agree.
Closed circle of violence.
Hehe… Fanatism - is it first point of any organisation in SS style (Tax police, for example :lol: ). Idea don’t dangerous before someone try to make this idea alternativeless for all others.
Nazism, communism, religious ideas of some kind (buddists, for example, never do something like “gazavat” or “crusade”).
"Okay, brothers, we’ll kill some quantity of enemies and that will give to us better life conditions. Why we should kill them ? “Cos the are: non muslims, non christians, non communists, non capitalists, non arians, non russians, non …, the are ellowish, white, black, they smelling bad… etc. (mark desirable please, write missing)”
And during execution of this idea allways need somebody, who will execute orders without personal responsibility. Ususally these “perfect soldiers” not monsters, but most elementary members of society - universal rule for any army - “then less IQ - then better soldier”. Man without fantasy, without imagination and with pice of fat instead of heart, big healthly anymal, who smart enought to run and fire when commander ordered - dream of commanders for all times.
Usually elite forces, commandos, who can fight by situation and can fight independtly don’t used in retaliatory operations - 'cos they are fighters, not butchers and smart enought to understand what to do and wich reason it have.
If you need burnng village with population - send there most stupid troops, give them some elite name, something like “Falcons” or “Tigers”, then wash them they’s elementary brians with some pathetic text, better with rithmic music.
If they do all correctly - give them a lot shining toys, medals, alcohol and something special for uniform, maybe colorfull cap with feathers - idiots liked bright things, they will do all best for these things, they seriosly tought - shining things make them better than other people…
Fanatical goverment liked stupid anymals, who ready round-a-clock die by first order. People waves, sucide attacers, cavalary, fighting tanks with sabres… just dream of dictator !
Most effective well trained soldiers - is it prerogative of normal goverment, goverment that never planed capture other countries and don’t scared have smart army.
Just remember two days before Iraq war TV news - where today all these clowns with AK, they seems so fightfull, so proud and so resolute, courageos as lions - but where that lions now ? Guardians, sucide attakers, commandos and other supersoldiers of Saddam - somebody from these clowns fight and fight well - but how much from all quantity ? 20% ? 30% ?
If they figh well, as men should fight - no need today to little girls use a knife against US troops…
All goverments, based on a lie and violence scared have real army, such goverments put all on monkeys with weapon.