Waffen SS

Let’s try this all over again and see if you get ridiculous again of stay with reality and treat me with descency.

Here goes…

"Unfortunately, it is true that Germany had the best trained army in the world during WWII.

As for the US army, it was well trained, but not as thoroughly as that of Germany. I cannot speak of the Russians because I know little of how well they were trained, but I do not think all that well, as so many were quickly pressed into service, from what I have learned. There were several reasons for Germany’s demise, most of which had little if anything to do with the quality of the training that soldiers on either side received:

The German army’s doctrine for war was badly flawed. They armed the bulk of their army with bolt action rifles (no match for the majority of their enemies who used semi or fully auto weapons) and supported them with MG fire from the rear and advancing mechanized units. While this works fine for blitzkreig, especially in open areas, it sucks when fighting an enemy army which is better armed in slower moving combat. Remember also, that very few German soldiers had MP40’s. They were mostly in the hands of officers and squad leaders, while the advancing Americans and Russians used Sphagins, Thompsons, M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, etc. A bolt action rifle is not a match at less than 300 yards for an M1 Garand, and it’s a suicide weapon against an M1 Carbine at under 200 yards, all other things being the same, that is. Once the Germans were no longer the aggressor for the most part, thier capabilities suffered. When it came to foot soldier combat, the Germans were outgunned.

Also, American and British bombing of German manufacturing and transportation facilities crippled Germany badly. Not long after they built it, it got blown up. It is impossible to conduct a war with continuously destoyed factories against the most industrialized nation in the world (US) and the immense human resources of the Soviet Union.

Furthermore, partly because of the superior manufacturing capability of the US, and because of the superior tank warfare tactics of the British as seen in N. Africa, the Germans were outperformed in mechanized warfare with the exception of their use of blitzkreig early in the war. The Battle of Britain cost Germany badly, where the RAF kicked the crap out of the Luftwaffe despite the terrible disadvantages of failing airplane parts and being bombed by Germany. Over mainland Europe, the US air power shamed Germany’s already deminished Luftwaffe (thank you Britain).

Add to this the fatal mistake of declaring war on the Soviet Union and bogging themselves down in a churning, agonizing front on the east when they were no longer able to properly supply their forces thanks to US and British bombing, and you can see that Germany was not defeated because the Allied troops were better trained. It was for many reasons, having little to do with training.

The only reason for Germany’s failure that I left out that amounted to anything (that I can think of anyway) was the US and British ending German superiority in the Atlantic.

BTW, it goes without saying that Germany’s leadership was phucked, otherwise they would not have made some of those things possible, but since it goes without saying, let’s stick to the tangible reasons for Germany’s demise."

Well done on on making stoatmans earlier post in, Why Germany lost the war, five times longer and moving it to a different thread.

The work was, beautiful.

Yuo have however written a fairly good synopisis of the posts of other people. Well done.

Incidentally how old are you?

(editted by common courtesy to improve and remove my typos)

OK like I said I have no hands on experience with the Garand so I’ll bow to your knowledge on that. My own experiences with the No4 are purely range based and through this I have a soft spot for the beast. :lol:

hey!,im talking about waffen ss,no the ss,the ss are the hitler police,the waffen ss are military troops with a better combat train and uniforms,they we´re never surrender.

the waffen ss are the greatest soldiers in the history!,the ss are those who you hate and they tortures,i dk if the waffen ss tortured,but they we´re the best troops,im comparing them with german army,the german army was the best of the world by far!!!

[
“Unfortunately, it is true that Germany had the best trained army in the world during WWII.”
True. Early war Germans were very well trained 2-6 years. In the last 1.5 years, training dropped to 16 weeks…

“The German army’s doctrine for war was badly flawed. They armed the bulk of their army with bolt action rifles (no match for the majority of their enemies who used semi or fully auto weapons) and supported them with MG fire from the rear and advancing mechanized units. While this works fine for blitzkreig, especially in open areas, it sucks when fighting an enemy army which is better armed in slower moving combat. Remember also, that very few German soldiers had MP40’s. They were mostly in the hands of officers and squad leaders, while the advancing Americans and Russians used Sphagins, Thompsons, M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, etc.”

Not true. The german’s doctrine was the most efficient with 3=4 times more firepower. The majority of tehir enemies used boltaction/smg(russians) or boltaction light mg(English) or semiauto/auto rifle(bar) (Americans) German military doctrine was based on 1-3 MG42s per squad. (regular 1, motorized2, mechanized panzergrenadier-3) Just those 3 mg42s can quickly wipe out a squad of US infantry on the defense.
In early war there were only 1-2 mp40s per squad. Late war, this increased to 2-5 full automatic small arms per squad. Contrary to popular thinking there were a decent amount of MP44s (425K were built in the final phase of the war) and MP40/Mp28/MP38/Berreta submachineguns( 2million)

http://johnnocmdow.tripod.com/unit1.htm (this is probably the most User friendly site.)

" A bolt action rifle is not a match at less than 300 yards for an M1 Garand, and it’s a suicide weapon against an M1 Carbine at under 200 yards, all other things being the same, that is. Once the Germans were no longer the aggressor for the most part, thier capabilities suffered. When it came to foot soldier combat, the Germans were outgunned."

Have you fired these weapons before? People fire under cover. The increased Effective fire rate of a semi-auto is not significant to make up for a lack of a squad mg. Germans soldiers OUTGUNNed all their enemies. Machineguns in ww2 (light-heavy) inflicted more than 80% of bullet causalties. Having a SLighty better rifle is immaterial.

“Also, American and British bombing of German manufacturing and transportation facilities crippled Germany badly. Not long after they built it, it got blown up. It is impossible to conduct a war with continuously destoyed factories against the most industrialized nation in the world (US) and the immense human resources of the Soviet Union.”

True. But in 1944 Germany produced twice as many weapons thanks to Speer.

“Furthermore, partly because of the superior manufacturing capability of the US, and because of the superior tank warfare tactics of the British as seen in N. Africa, the Germans were outperformed in mechanized warfare with the exception of their use of blitzkreig early in the war. The Battle of Britain cost Germany badly, where the RAF kicked the crap out of the Luftwaffe despite the terrible disadvantages of failing airplane parts and being bombed by Germany. Over mainland Europe, the US air power shamed Germany’s already deminished Luftwaffe (thank you Britain).”

Germany WAS NOT outperfomred by the English or Americans in N.Africa. in mechanized warfare. Germany was always superior in that respect. The Allies lost 5 X more tanks than the germans. In the Normandy battles, Germany’s Panzer IV Mark G-Js, Panther Gs, and Tigers ripped the Allies to shreds. The allies lost more than 10X as many tanks as the germans did. And they outnumbered the germans immensively. (Germans 1400 Tanks 400 reinforcements) (Allies 7,000 tanks, infinite reinforcement(practically always at full strength) Rommel was great because he was massively outnumbered and still was able to inflict disportionate causalties on teh allies. More than half the RAF was destroyed after the Battle of Britain… the RAF fighters did pretty well against unescorted bombers, but were still inferior to the germans in dogfighting( 2X losses)

“Add to this the fatal mistake of declaring war on the Soviet Union and bogging themselves down in a churning, agonizing front on the east when they were no longer able to properly supply their forces thanks to US and British bombing, and you can see that Germany was not defeated because the Allied troops were better trained. It was for many reasons, having little to do with training.”

Of course. Hitler was a madman.

“The only reason for Germany’s failure that I left out that amounted to anything (that I can think of anyway) was the US and British ending German superiority in the Atlantic.”

NOPE. ITs called the Eastern Front. 3 Million german men died in Russia. thats 90% of the german military deaths in ww2. The germans were bleed dry in Stalingrad, bagration,leningrad, etc.etc.

“BTW, it goes without saying that Germany’s leadership was phucked, otherwise they would not have made some of those things possible, but since it goes without saying, let’s stick to the tangible reasons for Germany’s demise.”[/quote]"

Germany was doomed when Hitler arrogantly ordered the splitting of his army groups during Operation Barborossa, leading to Stalingrad, which effectively allowed the Soviet Union to completely mobilize their 200 million + population and outproduce Germany.

Western Europe/North Africa forces were stripped dry just to feed the Eastern front meatgrinder, making an invasion very possible.

Finally, its impossible for even the greatest military nation of 70 million people to fight most of the armies of Europe and the United States AT THE SAME TIME.

Welcome to the site Hosenfield! :smiley:

Only the CLassic Waffen SS Panzer divisions were elite units (1st , 2nd,3rd, 5th, 9th ,10th , 12th SS panzer division) The SS , German Paratroopers(fallashimager division 1,2,3) and the German wermarcht Panzer divisions are probably the best troops/quality-firepower-wise in ww2. …

THe Waffen SS is probably one of the least understood forces among the average american- Their job was NOT killing jews, etc. THey were combat troops. Many didn’t have Nazi party membership. A lot were german army officers/ncos from proven Wermarcht Panzer divisions.

The holocaust was initiated by other organizations within the SS, but not the waffen ss.

well said mate!

“Oh, and self-loading rifles had been developped around 1900, and had been trialled before and during the first world war. They were not adopted in large numbers. Why? 3 main reasons: cost, weight, and because at that time the manufacturing skills were not up to making them to the right tolerances to make them reliable, and the designs were not inherently reliable - i.e. at that time, bolt-action rifles were more effective and battle worthy.”

THe main reason why every major power in ww2 except US used bolt actions instead of semi auto is because the (Russian, Japanese, British) firepower was based on a light machinegun (Bren, DP, Jap copy of bren)or a medium machinegun(germans). Having a true dedicated light machinegun (not the BAR, its an auto rifle) requires plenty of ammo clips to be carried by the Squad. Theirfore, its impossible to carry as much personal rifle ammo as a squad of semiauto/auto rifle. IE, (the max amount of K98 ammo a german soldier carried was 60-120 rounds, while he also carried one/two 250 round mg42 box on his back) while a US soldier carried (80 to 176 rounds for the m1 in clips and maybe a assistant Bar belt with 6 bar clips(i think)) by the way, in different ww2 combat environments, an estimated 60-90 percent of causalties/losses are caused by things other then bullets.

“The turning point really came with the Garand, but even a Garand will not keep firing as long as an SMLE when it’s dirty, fouled & full of mud - and the Garand is more reliable than the German and Soviet self.loaders.[/quote]”

The turning point is the MP44. The first mass produced assault rifle. The ideas behind an intermediate cartidge spawned the AK-47, and in the 60s, the M-16.

“Are you going to say that being attacked by 410,000 US soldiers in the west while conducting a war against the Soviet Union where you will lose millions of lives is not much of a disadvantage too?”

… you mean 6.25 million US soldiers

Nice posts, hosenfield - we’d been ignoring these posts because of some of IRonman’s ridiculous comments based around no knowledge or experience, e.g.

If you read back up the thread, people told him that German doctrine was based around the MG34/42, and this was better on a squad basis than individuals having more firepower, but with no wpn at squad level capable of delivering any kind of sustained, accurate fire, and that the US brought the M1919A6 in to try to remedy this.

The man himself will be back posting on 27th July, and I’d imagine that he’ll target your post for a contradiction. Be prepared (to laugh)!!! He knows absolutely nothing, but set himself up on this site as the fount of all knowledge.

Minor quibble - although the Waffen-SS were not officially tasked with participating in the Holocaust, many did anyway (apparently just for fun), as did large sections of the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front. The number of war crimes committed on the Eastern Front is staggering.

Minor quibble - although the Waffen-SS were not officially tasked with participating in the Holocaust, many did anyway (apparently just for fun), as did large sections of the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front. The number of war crimes committed on the Eastern Front is staggering.[/quote]

Well said pdf. SS were also transferred in between various parts of the SS, so that you could have been on extermination duties one month and fighting at the front a few later. Also I believe the Waffen SS carried out a fair few atrocities on their own as well.

You can commend their fighting ability and elan, but dont try and paint them as white, after all they were still SS.

“Minor quibble - although the Waffen-SS were not officially tasked with participating in the Holocaust, many did anyway (apparently just for fun), as did large sections of the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front. The number of war crimes committed on the Eastern Front is staggering.”

The war in the east was different then the war in the west; it was merciless war of survival, a conflict b/w eastern europe vs western europe. Both sides killed many prisoners. Since the Soviet government didn’t recognize the rules of war, the germans were prepared not to follow them in the east. When the russians arrived in germany, they committed atrocities against the german civilian population that would rival acts of the Totenkopft, etc.

True. But it was not the primary purpose. Most didn’t even know of the existence of a holocaust. The “purification” duties were mostly carrried out by the non-premier ss formations. THe premier formations simply had no time to do these things.

"Well said pdf. SS were also transferred in between various parts of the SS, so that you could have been on extermination duties one month and fighting at the front a few later. Also I believe the Waffen SS carried out a fair few atrocities on their own as well.

You can commend their fighting ability and elan, but dont try and paint them as white, after all they were still SS."

Both the Waffen SS and Wermarcht commited atrocities in the west at the same scale. Allied soldiers, too. Many "SS "were german army, luftwaffe, naval transfers. While their are many despicable Waffen SS formations, IE the formations composed of criminals from german prisons (some 20, 30-soething ss divisions) its a common misconception that the SS have a dramatically higher crime rate. There were despicable Wermarcht formations, too.

The SS and Wermarcht panzer divisions, given their fire-brigade role and often independent battlegroup missions (ie KG peiper) often had to embark on missions where it would be a grave threat to security to hold prisoners.
The panzergrenadiers did much more fighting then line units, so crimes would acrease accordingly.

The Allies commited similiar atrocities in the west, its just that we won the war, so any atrocities commited by the Allies have been conviently covered up.

While I’ve seen many “SS” worshippers, the reason why the SS Panzergrenadier had more “elan” was the fact that both Allied and Soviet propoganda gave the impression that the SS werelmadmen that didn’t take prisoners and fought to the last man. The Waffen SS soldiers knew this, and made every effort not to get captured. Especially in the East. If a Russian soldier spotted the “lightning bolts” the SS mann would be as good as dead. This has more to do with survival then any idoctrination. Especially in later war years, many “SS” had the same training as german army.

“If you read back up the thread, people told him that German doctrine was based around the MG34/42, and this was better on a squad basis than individuals having more firepower, but with no wpn at squad level capable of delivering any kind of sustained, accurate fire, and that the US brought the M1919A6 in to try to remedy this”

The 1919A6 was issued 1-2 per platoon, as it was way to heavy to be carried 1 per squad. Unfortunately, for the germans, having great infantry firepower doesn’t make up for the complete lack of matchable numbers of tanks, infantry, artillery, and airpower.

If you believe that statement for one minute you are sadly deluded. It is wrong to imagine that no-one knew about the Holocaust.

As Ive already stated they were often transferred between duties and therefore word of mouth would have told tham about it.

Also the SS stood for the Nazi party. As i previously said, you can admire their fighting qualities but you cannot admire the organisation as it stood for the Nazi regime.

“Most didn’t know”

"If you believe that statement for one minute you are sadly deluded. It is wrong to imagine that no-one knew about the Holocaust.

As Ive already stated they were often transferred between duties and therefore word of mouth would have told tham about it."

Yes, but most didn’t know about the holocaust. I’m not saying some didn’t know. Certainly, the 3rd SS totenkopft knew, and those men are mostly war criminals. In any event, nobody ever mentions the 12 million russian civilians killed through “purification”.

“Also the SS stood for the Nazi party. As i previously said, you can admire their fighting qualities but you cannot admire the organisation as it stood for the Nazi regime.”
I haven’t said that I admire “the organization”.

I think that you may have missed the point here. You speak like members of the Tottenkopf Div stayed together throughout the war? Like any military organisation people come and go, transfer to other units etc etc.

Also, Im very sure the people of Germany knew what was going on during the war and not as you have said, hardly anyone knew. To say we didnt know is perhaps the easiest way out of a difficult question to answer.

As the SS represented the Party and the Party decided to kill millions of people, the SS are guilty by default, and yes I know many of the SS especially in the last year of the war, were merely conscripted into a unit. But the fact remains that the core of them were the same fanatics that only a few years before were burning Synagogues (Sp) etc. They therefore represented the fallacy of the Master race and are not something to be looked up to or indeed even looked upon as proud warriors. In sum, at best they were deluded, at worst they were evil, if not on an individual level then merely as an organisation.

“As the SS represented the Party and the Party decided to kill millions of people, the SS are guilty by default, and yes I know many of the SS especially in the last year of the war, were merely conscripted into a unit. But the fact remains that the core of them were the same fanatics that only a few years before were burning Synagogues (Sp) etc. They therefore represented the fallacy of the Master race and are not something to be looked up to or indeed even looked upon as proud warriors. In sum, at best they were deluded, at worst they were evil, if not on an individual level then merely as an organisation.[/quote]”

Of course the SS did these things. But the Waffen SS is a military branch of the Heer. A Waffen SS soldier had to be 18-22. You can’t say that the core Waffen SS officers/soldiers in the 1939-1941 core generation was a criminal. IE. Young people in the US look up to “Special forces/elite” .
For other reasons than you have stated, people joined the SS as a matter of societal prestige.

There are evil or deluded men in every military organization in ww2.

I disagree that they should not be looked upon as “proud warriors”. There are bad apples in every tree. The Waffen SS panzergrenadiers, for the most part, fought bravely and skillfully even when victory seemed unachieveable or just plain suicidal.
If you put the evils of nazism aside, the fact is that most of them fought for the survival of their country and their families. Many of them could not imagine living in a defeated country, especially one under soviet communism.

I dont think anyone doubts the Waffen SS and their fighting ability. But units get associated with certain events. And history is written by the victors. All SS groups are associated with horrific events which overshadows any brave fighting that they did.