Unfortunately so. The Waffen SS/SS could have been thought as one of the best forces in history, had they not destroyed that possibility by carying out atrocities and massacres on innocent bystanders and unarmed/armed soldiers.
“I dont think anyone doubts the Waffen SS and their fighting ability. But units get associated with certain events. And history is written by the victors. All SS groups are associated with horrific events which overshadows any brave fighting that they did.”
The worst massacre the Waffen SS did on the western front was at Oradour-sur-Glane. But US troops did a massacre at a similiar scale at Dachau. google/wikipedia it.
True.
I don’t know if it overshadows their present reputation. Have you been at a hobby store? There are dozens of “Dragon models” action figures that depict all waffen SS men and very few allied soldiers. Waffen SS books are in every bookstore. There are books written about the waffen SS every year. Some are well written, and fair, while others have an “apologist” tone to them.
That is complete bull****, I’m afraid. The war in the east from the very beginning was a war of extermination waged against a people regarded as subhuman. The behaviour of the German troops (the Wehrmacht were no better than the SS in this regard) towards the Russian civillians was despicable - they managed to make a people who had welcomed them with bread and salt decide that they preferred to be ruled by Stalin. That takes some doing.
As for both sides killing many prisoners, there are two responses to that. The first is that just because one side is doing it doesn’t justify the other in doing so - something that most children grow out of by the time they are 10 or so. The second is the fact that the German treatment of Russian PoWs was simply much worse, and was an instrument of state policy. The Wehrmacht for instance deliberately starved 1.5 million Russian PoWs to death in the first six months of Barbarossa - the Russians never got close in this behaviour.
Furthermore, the Germans had to issue the following order on the 10th of August 1941 -
“There have been many cases of off-duty soldiers volunteering to help the SD with the execution of Jewish elements. It is now forbidden for any soldiers to assist in such executions unless ordered by an officer”.
Reichenau issued another order along the same lines -
“…The most important objective of this campaign against the Jewish-Bolshevik system is the complete destruction of its sources of power and the extermination of the asiatic influence in European civilization…In this eastern theatre, the solider is not only a man fighting in accordance with the rules of the art of war, but also the ruthless standard bearer of a national conception…for this reason the soldier must learn fully to appreciate the necessity for the severe but just retribution that must be meted out to the subhuman species of Jewry…”
There are thousands of examples like this, of concentration camps being run to provide dead bodies as feedstock for a soap factory, or the PoW camp at Novo-Aleksandrovsk where Russian captives were held with no shelter at all and completely inadequate food (cauldrons for 1200 men at a pinch - there were 18,000 in the camp).
The war in the east was a war of extermination launched by the Germans to try and exterminate the Russians (and indeed all the Slavic peoples). Thankfully it failed. While I cannot support the revenge the Russians took when they invaded Germany, I do understand where they were coming from, and why they wanted to take revenge in kind (even the mass rapes they committed were no different from the behaviour of the Wehrmacht and SS in Russia). Even then, the Russians restrained themselves and didn’t carry out campaigns of mass extermination similar to those waged by the Germans in Russia.
Judging by your posts, I would say at best you are a naive kid who doesn’t understand the black evil of what you are defending. That I can live with, provided you go, read up, and make some effort to understand.
At worst… that isn’t really something I can properly put into words. You are defending an absolutely satanic regime, and a group of armed thugs who committed some of the worst crimes in the history of the world. If you seriously believe that this makes sense, and that they weren’t all that bad you are a deeply twisted and evil person.
“That is complete bull****, I’m afraid. The war in the east from the very beginning was a war of extermination waged against a people regarded as subhuman. The behaviour of the German troops (the Wehrmacht were no better than the SS in this regard) towards the Russian civillians was despicable - they managed to make a people who had welcomed them with bread and salt decide that they preferred to be ruled by Stalin. That takes some doing.”
How is that bull****? Yes, I know that.
“As for both sides killing many prisoners, there are two responses to that. The first is that just because one side is doing it doesn’t justify the other in doing so - something that most children grow out of by the time they are 10 or so. The second is the fact that the German treatment of Russian PoWs was simply much worse, and was an instrument of state policy. The Wehrmacht for instance deliberately starved 1.5 million Russian PoWs to death in the first six months of Barbarossa - the Russians never got close in this behaviour.”
Yes, I know that.
"Furthermore, the Germans had to issue the following order on the 10th of August 1941 -
“There have been many cases of off-duty soldiers volunteering to help the SD with the execution of Jewish elements. It is now forbidden for any soldiers to assist in such executions unless ordered by an officer”.
Reichenau issued another order along the same lines -
“…The most important objective of this campaign against the Jewish-Bolshevik system is the complete destruction of its sources of power and the extermination of the asiatic influence in European civilization…In this eastern theatre, the solider is not only a man fighting in accordance with the rules of the art of war, but also the ruthless standard bearer of a national conception…for this reason the soldier must learn fully to appreciate the necessity for the severe but just retribution that must be meted out to the subhuman species of Jewry…”
There are thousands of examples like this, of concentration camps being run to provide dead bodies as feedstock for a soap factory, or the PoW camp at Novo-Aleksandrovsk where Russian captives were held with no shelter at all and completely inadequate food (cauldrons for 1200 men at a pinch - there were 18,000 in the camp). "
Yes, I know that. But how is that different from a Gulag??!
“The war in the east was a war of extermination launched by the Germans to try and exterminate the Russians (and indeed all the Slavic peoples). Thankfully it failed. While I cannot support the revenge the Russians took when they invaded Germany, I do understand where they were coming from, and why they wanted to take revenge in kind (even the mass rapes they committed were no different from the behaviour of the Wehrmacht and SS in Russia). Even then, the Russians restrained themselves and didn’t carry out campaigns of mass extermination similar to those waged by the Germans in Russia.”
Yes I know that.
“Judging by your posts, I would say at best you are a naive kid who doesn’t understand the black evil of what you are defending. That I can live with, provided you go, read up, and make some effort to understand.
At worst… that isn’t really something I can properly put into words. You are defending an absolutely satanic regime, and a group of armed thugs who committed some of the worst crimes in the history of the world. If you seriously believe that this makes sense, and that they weren’t all that bad you are a deeply twisted and evil person.”
What are you taking about??? I’m just saying the Waffen ss were good at fighting… Some commited terrible crimes, some did not. And, second of all, im not a kid. And I’m not naive.
The difference here is that the US troops were subjected to investigation and trial by court martial for the crimes they committed (and these crimes were regarded as crimes by the rest of the US forces). This was not true for the SS actions at Oradour-sur-Glane - this was done against a random selection of civilians, and was supported from on high. The two cannot be regarded as equivalent.
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“The difference here is that the US troops were subjected to investigation and trial by court martial for the crimes they committed (and these crimes were regarded as crimes by the rest of the US forces). This was not true for the SS actions at Oradour-sur-Glane - this was done against a random selection of civilians, and was supported from on high. The two cannot be regarded as equivalent.”
This was supported from the commander of “Der fuhrer” regiment .
“The soldiers involved in shooting the POWs were courtmartialed; however, General George Patton ordered that they receive no further penalties. Many of the documents and name tags of the POWs were subsequently destroyed and the victims buried in unmarked mass graves, in violation of the Geneva Convention in regard to the treatment of war dead.”
They were court martiialed and received no punishment!
Sorry to weigh into this debate so late but:
What human being would not want to take immediate and lethal revenge against the people that had committed the atrocities of the Holocaust? If I had been among the US soldiers I would have found it difficult to control my emotions and actions. I believe this sort of thing is called extenuating circumstances in a court of law/court-martial.
We can argue all night about the legality of the actions of the US troops at Dachau but my view is that they were morally justified in every way. The Waffen-SS were animals and were merely put down.
Tubs
"What human being would not want to take immediate and lethal revenge against the people that had committed the atrocities of the Holocaust? If I had been among the US soldiers I would have found it difficult to control my emotions and actions. I believe this sort of thing is called extenuating circumstances in a court of law/court-martial.
We can argue all night about the legality of the actions of the US troops at Dachau but my view is that they were morally justified in every way. The Waffen-SS were animals and were merely put down."
Criminals should be punished by trial. It is the american way. Many of the SS soldiers that were garrisonned at Dachau were amputees/ wounded men from the front. Quite a few of them did not commit any crimes and were themselves horrified to find what was there. What the americans should have done was to arrest and examine who did what, who deserves to be punished. If you do the killing without trial, then your no better then SD murderers.
I am not American so I cannot debate for or against the American way.
I speak as a soldier and as a human being. I have very personal and deep seated feelings about the Holocaust and this probably has coloured my view of the Waffen-SS. I still believe that the “soldiers” at Dachau were dealt with in the same way as you would deal with a rabid dog…
You can continue to post your opinion, and I will respect you for doing so, but I find that (to me) you seem to be an apologist for the atrocities.
If I am wrong, please correct me.
Edited to withdraw accusations of Holocaust denial - I was wrong to say this in the first place. Many apologies.
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You can continue to post your opinion, and I will respect you for doing so, but I find that (to me) you seem to be both an apologist for the atrocities and also a Holocaust denier.
In your country, if a man is accused of commiting a crime, does he not stand trial first???
Well, I am not. I don’t know where you got the idea that I am an apologist for atrocities and holocaust denier… you seem to put words in my mouth.
OK I take back the Holocaust denier slur. Many apologies, I truly am sorry, that was an ill thought out and egregious accusation. I hope you will forgive me. I will edit my post accordingly.
About the apologist comment, I stand firm by my previous statements. By saying that the SS in Dachau were invalids and amputees you do seem to imply that the SS as a whole were a really good bunch of lads. I view this as an apologists point of view i.e. “The Americans were just as bad because they shot a load of innocent people who shared the same cap-badge as the poor misguided fools that were tricked into committing genocide!”.
My main point was that, during the fog of war, having seen the atrocities committed, any soldier would struggle to control themselves. I know I would. I am very glad that I did not have to make that decision.
To put you in the picture, I lost a large portion of my family (Polish Jews) in the extermination camps so if I seem short tempered about this subject I am sorry, but I still feel angry about the abominations carried out.
You state that many of the SS volunteers were just 18-22 years old. Well these are exactly the guys that would have spent their formative years in the hitler youth.
This was the product of Nazi Germany, this was the essence of nazism, these men were what Hitler and his cronies produced. Yes they fought well, but they were brutal. You state that the allies committed atrocities but the SS commited systematic atrocities, Ive not hear of any British or US units herding hundreds of men into a field and them MGing them?
Evil has its own macabre allure, and the prevalence for all things SS is, in my opinion, a certain fascination with this.
In sum, yes they fought well. Yes they were brutal and yes they were a product of the society that the Nazis had made.
And, Ive said this before, if the Germans were so good, why didnt they win?
That statement is totally wrong. The Waffenen SS were always part of the SS. They came under operational control of the German Army but were always the Party Army.
Might I point out that no country is innocent. As most have agreed history is written by the victors. The American/British are guilty of many things that would be today considered war crimes. Firebombing of many towns. Such are the acts of war. The only real difference is that the SS where involved in one of the worst systematic killings of all time. However…regardless of some of their horrible acts alot of them were not involved in horrible acts and did fight bravely for their country. Dupped as they might have been by a crazy bastard. The did what they thought was right and so did we. If the Nazi’s had won the war im sure there would have been many allies brought up on charges of war crimes. However I dont really know how Hitler could have ever hidden the fact of what he did to the Jews. Anyhow I thats my take on it.
Superior numbers in equipment and manpower.
[quote=“Gen_Sandworm”]
Might I point out that no country is innocent. As most have agreed history is written by the victors. The American/British are guilty of many things that would be today considered war crimes. Firebombing of many towns. Such are the acts of war. The only real difference is that the SS where involved in one of the worst systematic killings of all time. However…regardless of some of their horrible acts alot of them were not involved in horrible acts and did fight bravely for their country. Dupped as they might have been by a crazy bastard. The did what they thought was right and so did we. If the Nazi’s had won the war im sure there would have been many allies brought up on charges of war crimes. However I dont really know how Hitler could have ever hidden the fact of what he did to the Jews. Anyhow I thats my take on it.
Superior numbers in equipment and manpower.[/quote]
Not in 1941 though? They were the ones in the lead.
Well ill just add that they were lead by a crazy man. As Eddie Izzard said"Hitler must have never played Risk as kid" :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well here is my take on the german War machine.
In 1940 they were innovative and had an Army developed for the Blitzkrieg.
In 1941 they had perfected this, no more development was thought to be needed in Armour etc.
In 1941 they got a shock when the Sovs didnt cave in and then had the mad idea that declaring war on the US would somehow enable them to defeat the UK by sinking every ship in the Atlantic.
By mid 1942 when they realise all is not rosy they are doomed.
Why are they doomed?
In most of the Allied countries everyone worked for a purpose. In Germany everyone was factionalised, we have the Army, we have Herman Goerings mainly ineffective Lufftwaffe field Divisions and we have the SS, all compete. Then we have Hitler who gives priority of new euipment to new divisions as he doesnt trust the others to not waste it.
We then have every petty indulgence in wonder weapons known, from Rockets to U-boats. Now admitedly these were technically inovative but they all took up valuable resources. Why have 27 various kinds of Panzer? Why not concentrate on the Panther and its derivatives? Because they were obsessed with bigger is better instead of thinking about logistics and ease of maintenance.
By the end of the war Germanies once famous mainly light armoured striking force has been reduced to lumbring fuel hungry monsters. You can admire a king Tiger, but at that time it was utter madness to build it when you could build maybe 5-10 Hetzer which would have done them better.
Then we come to the air, The ME262 was undoubtedly the best Jet fighter, but it could have been in service a year earlier. There are many many more examples of this. When the Allies were getting on with it, the Axis were still vying for favours and backbiting and creating personal armies.
I am always amazed that they lasted so long, not that they were better soldiers.
Anyway slightly off topic I know, rant over.
About the apologist comment, I stand firm by my previous statements. By saying that the SS in Dachau were invalids and amputees you do seem to imply that the SS as a whole were a really good bunch of lads. I view this as an apologists point of view i.e. “The Americans were just as bad because they shot a load of innocent people who shared the same cap-badge as the poor misguided fools that were tricked into committing genocide!”.
I’m saying that not all the SS were the executioners. Some were just wounded soldiers. I’m not saying that the SS in Dachau were all “a good bunch of lads” I’m saying that in the west, the western allies committed attrocities.
600,000 German civilians died in US/UK bombing campaign. Was anyone persecuted?? Of course not!
You seem to have side slipped your view from - most germans didnt know about the Holocaust -
To:
Well the Americans did it, and oh by the way look, Germans were killed by allied bombings.
Of course they were, but UK and other European Civillians were killed by German Bombs, we can debate the whole reasoning for the bombing campaign in another thread.
Do you still stand by your statement that most SS never knew about the holocaust, and if so, please point us to somewhere that substantuates this.
In my view, most Germans knew something was going on, thats not to say they condoned it, but its false t claim they knew nothing of it.
why the germans didn´t win if they we´re so good?.
there are more variable factors in a war than quality of troops.
why the americans didn´t win in somalia?
the war isn´t only about being good or bad.