Walther War Machines big book of Soldier Knowledge

And again, you selectively embolden a fragment of a statement, changing the meaning:

SOCIALLY yes, some libertarian policies tend to be left-wing. But you will NEVER find a libertarian espousing certain left-wing social policies such as “affermative action” (which is a form of discrimination), since they are profoundly illiberal. ECONOMICALLY no, except for the smaller “left-libertarian” version. Economically, traditional libertarians are “right wing”. There’s a bizarre group called “left-libertarians” (if you read down the article) who are not economically right wing. Economically, your standard libertarian will also never espouse so-called “redistributive” taxation (a lot of libertarians will never espouse taxation at all above a bare minimum), large welfare programmes, anti-trust laws (seen as punishing successful businesses), and other left-wing things.

I also happen to be a libertarian - if I had to pigeon-hole myself further, I would classify myself as a pragmatic minarchist and a meritocrat. There is absolutlely nothing left-wing about my economic ideas, although my social permissiveness on certain issues is sometimes thought of as “left-wing”.

If you want to argue about this, I suggest you go to the following libertarian blog www.samizdata.net/blog & claim in a thread there that all the libertarian contributors there are left-wing. They’ll eat you alive. :twisted:

What you are doing is trying to play semantics with something that is defineable, like saying, “I’m a Christian, but only on Sundays.” Hogwash. You are, or you are not libertarian, and libertairian is, or is not right-wing. And um, it is not.

It’s simple:

“Libertarianism is often thought of as “right-wing” doctrine. This, however, is mistaken for at least two reasons.”

Maybe THAT emboldenment will sink into your noodle. There are no “Except for when…” or “Unless you…” in the definition of libertarianism.
Maybe you are not libertarian at all, and you only think you are because you are confused ( :roll: ) about what libertarian is. I’d draw you an ilusstration but if I labeled the economic and socio-political parts of it, you’d just get them confused.

Hasn’t there just been a thread where it was convincingly argued that libertarianism was neither left nor right wing, but exhibited characteristics of both on a range of issues. Thus, while it is correct to say that

Libertarianism is often thought of as “right-wing” doctrine. This, however, is mistaken for at least two reasons.

it does not necessarily follow that libertarianism is cannot be right wing in any way, merely that it is not purely right wing?

No. It is stated that libertarianism IS NOT right-wing doctrine.

No. It is stated that libertarianism IS NOT right-wing doctrine.[/quote]

So, to clarify, you state that not only is libertarianism not a right wing doctrine (which seems undisputed here), no libertarian policies can be described as right wing?

Am I the only one that recalls the spectrum for political parties and Ideologies being drawn most commonly as a horseshoe?

Or will this confuse matters further - :lol:

Perhaps, in common with discussions on this site, it could be drawn as a downwards spiral?

is there vague animosity in that comment Crab? and is it directed at me or elsewhere?

What you are not understanding is this:

First, examine a very simplified definition of libertarian:

  1. Someone who advocates that people should be free to express themselves, their ideas, etc as they like.
  2. Someone who believes in the doctrine of free will and the power of self-determination.

Society requires goventment. It requires rules. Otherwise there is only chaos, as few wills conflicts with each other with no mediator. Conservatives (and largely moderates) believe that the government should take a stong role in protecting the structure of society and in protecting the people as a whole. Liberals believe that government should shut the fck up, unless they need the government to work against itself to make itself shut the fck up or make others (conservatives) shut the f*ck up. This is where libertarianism comes into play.

The libertarian agenda is one that says, “I belong to myself.” This is essentially correct, but in the larger picture, it is volatile to civilization’s requirement of meadiation and government. So while a libertarian says, “You (governement or individual) can’t tell me how to run my life.”, they also say, “If you try to run my life, I’ll use you against yourself to make you not able to run my life.” The economic agenda of libertarianism says, “I have a right to what pleases me. You can’t stop me from having what pleases me, and if you try to stop me from having it, or if you try to have something that pleases you that limits what I can have that pleases me, I’ll use you against yourself to make you no longer able to do that.” This economic freedom is contrary to insuring economic prosperity, because it places prosperity in the hands of those who are most able to obtain it, instead of the ideological condition of everyone having prosperity because they can chose to get it. The problem is that prosperity does not magically spead itself out evenly amongst everyone. The energy required to insure prosperity for the whole opposes the right to not have a concept of what is required for prosperity imposed on the individual, and this relies on government intervention, because without it, the ideological fee economy of the world prospers no-one.

A libertarian says, “My income is mine. You can’t tax it.” Conservatives say, “If I don’t tax it, I can’t protedt your rights and your freedom to persue economic prosperity. I’ll be broke, and can do nothing for you.”

The libertarian says, “I want to be able to buy anything I want from anywhere in the world.” The conservative says, “I don’t want people to be able to buy anything they want, because if they can, they will buy things which are bad for us all, and they will buy things from countries that we don’t want to do business with or in a way that is not good economically for all of us.”

The essence of all of this is that libertarians demand freedom where freedom conflicts with individual rights. The activism of libertarianism is almost ideologically hypocritical, because activism in the government is discouraged unless it is for the purpose of discouraging activism.

The basis of libertarianism is a role against the activism of government and the rule of the majority over the individual. Since the role of government and the voice of the majority is largely held as a virtue by conservatives and most moderates, this makes libertarianism left-wing, because it is opposed to the right-wing doctrine of government and majority having power over the individual by any considerable measure.

I hope this helps you understand why libertarianism is left-wing doctrine.

STONEWALL

not the gay press assoc

Maybe this is another case of “drugs =/= narcotics+medication” if you cross the pond going east.

From the post above, libertarian policies seem to tally best with what in the UK are described as right-of-centre policies.

That is because in the UK people are twisting the meaning of “liberal” and “conservative”. They are trying to swap their meanings. Odd for a country which is largely responsible for liberalism.

Who invented the language?

We did. And we defined the terms liberal and conservative. Which your wonky politics redefined incorrectly.
There were no conventionally “left wing” major parties in Britain until the formation of the Labour party just over 100 years ago. Before that there were Tories and Whigs, later the Conservative and Liberal parties. Both were by any modern standard right of centre, where they differed was on their attitude to individual liberty. Whigs supported Reform to produce a more democratic and equitable society while Tories were more authoritarian.
By no means could you use the term “Liberal” in it’s current perjorative form in America to define Whig/Liberal thought. It is only relatively recently with the rise of authoritatianism and religious influence in the US Republican party that the word “liberal” has taken on the negative conoitations almost synonymous with communism.

Political Left-Right stems originally from the distribution of seats in the legislative assembly of France in 1791. At this time the parties sitting on the right side of the assembly were the supporters of the royalists and clerus, while on the left were the radical revolutionary parties.
At this time (before Marx and Engels) free enterprise was still leftwing politics, but with the rise of the bourgoisie and the increasing amount of proletarians, the property owning bourgois became the new right, with the revolutionary proletarians becoming the new left. You can say that those who want to keep a status quo were traditionaly located on the right, while those who wanted a change were on the left.

Here is an interesting link, showing in a new way the relationsdhip between economic politics and authoritarism:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Jan

Yes, I know. Howver, to the majority of the world and Europe, the terms “conservative” and “liberal” have the same meanings as they do in the US. Britain stands virtually alone in this desire to swap the meanings of those terms. What the British are trying to change them FROM is the meanings they had when the terms had their inception.

And those were the original meanings of the terms, and they still are almost everywhere, including Europe. Those are the meanings of the terms that have prevailed to this day.

‘The basis of libertarianism is a role against the activism of government and the rule of the majority over the individual. Since the role of government and the voice of the majority is largely held as a virtue by conservatives and most moderates, this makes libertarianism left-wing, because it is opposed to the right-wing doctrine of government and majority having power over the individual by any considerable measure.’

I would disagree there Irn man - the very statement above can be taken to mean that libertarianism could be ultra-right wing because it is opposed to taxes and the interference of government in the daily lives. Then again it could place libertarianism firmly in the pocket of the anarchist movement. More thought needed I think.

There is enough evidence here to convice anyone reading it that the stunted logic in Ironmans post indicates he is out of his depth.

We cannot convince IRONMAN that he is wrong, ever! I agree we should stonewall him. It is obvious to those reading this argument who was making snese and who was goggling up last gasp defences and generally being a fool.

IRONMAN is not a hugely influential man by his own admission his greatest achiievement is managing to win the Quake wqorld championships, If he is wrong about his views on Libertarianism it is not going to undermine any governments or established institutions, I dont imagine him lecturing on the subject any time soon, As we appear to be his only friends or audience.

If your opponent is making mistakes why stop him? He isnt worth it

Absolutely craking 1st post, not any relation to Ironman are U, your argument is both convincing and incisive, well done again on your 1st post. I look forward to more of the same.[/quote]

firefly dont misquote me, that is typical of your blather! And I know that you are reiver![/quote]

CAPSLOCKMAN I warn you to add the reason of editing!!
Firefly doesn’t misquote you, he simply QUOTE your unedited post.
(Incidentally I saw your post unedited)

Last edited by CAPSLOCKMAN on Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:29 pm; edited 5 times in total

Pretty close to your first formal warning. :smiley: