War kayak used by Royal Marine commandos

From e-bay…

In 1944, William Hoffman, Vice President of Grumman Aircraft Engineering, went on a fishing trip, where he used a heavy-wood and canvas canoe. After the trip, he decided to create a canoe using lightweight material such as stretched-formed aluminum that he used for making his carrier-based fighter planes. The aluminum canoe, which was 13-feet-long, made its debut in 1945. Due to the success of the canoe, Grumman continued to produce it in the range of 13’, 15’, 17’, 18’, 19’, and 20’ canoes. The plant was relocated to Marathon, New York, in 1952. In 1988, Grumman manufactured the largest aluminum boat, at 22’3”.

All Grumman models feature a .060” aluminum deck and .080” steamcaps with special T-6 alumilite finish rivets for top strength. Also, the sealant makes the canoe water tight and long lasting. The sturdiness of the Grumman canoes comes from marine grade stainless-steel boats. In addition, the close riveting ties the gunnels, skin, and thwarts, resulting in extra strength. The flat water keel helps in making the paddling easy. The maneuvering of the canoe is made simpler by the shallow draft keel that has an inner keelson of rugged-strength extruded aluminum. The Grumman canoes are available in different models. The Grumman canoe unit was sold to O.M.C of Illinois in 1990. In 1996, a group of Grumman managers and investors repurchased the unit from O.M.C.

Do we know if this canoe is definitly a Grumman?

Sorry to keep posting.

I really believe that this aluminium canoe is just a tourist boat at the bottom of the med. Or it is not a Grumman product.

Sorry.

From http://www.newsday.com/community/guide/lihistory/ny-past516,0,5473146.story?coll=ny-lihistory-navigation

Using wartime technology, Grumman produces a product for peacetime America
Paddling a Canoe to Success

By Lawrence Striegel
Staff Writer

A GRUMMAN CORP. executive was portaging a heavy wood-and-canvas canoe in the Adirondacks in 1944 (1000ydstare: it was in the summer) when he wondered if the activity might be easier if the vessel were made of aluminum.

World War II was drawing to an end and William Hoffman, a company vice president, knew that defense contractors would be looking to convert their factories for peacetime production. As he heaved the old-style canoe around, he figured that Grumman could make lighter, sturdier aluminum models with the same metal-working expertise it had used to make thousands of Hellcat, Tigercat and Bearcat warplanes.

Company heads Leroy Grumman and Jake Swirbul liked the idea. Soon, 17-foot-long prototypes were being built in the employees’ bowling alley in Bethpage. After a successful test in the rapids of the Allagash River in Maine, the Grumman canoe was launched. A model was displayed in the window of Abercrombie & Fitch in Manhattan and in October, 1945, Leroy Grumman announced that the company had invented a 13-foot, 38-pound model that “even a woman can carry.” The New York Times described it as lighter “than Hiawatha’s birchbark vessel … and impervious to either porcupines or termites.”

The Aluminum Company of America provided a special aluminum alloy for the hull – and an expert, too. Russell Bonetcou, a sportsman who years earlier had worked with Alcoa on the aluminum canoe idea, joined Grumman on the project.

As Grumman geared up for mass production, Hoffman tapped John Achilich, a Grumman tooling engineer, to design larger canoes of 15, 17 and 19 feet. Achilich, a lanky 27-year-old, was excited about the assignment. As a teen growing up in the Bronx, he had built his own wood-and-cloth kayak. And before and during his college years at Pratt Institute, he had worked as a lifeguard and canoe instructor.

Grumman canoes – known for the booming sound they make when hitting a dock or rock (1000ydstare: doesn’t lend itself to covert movement – became fixtures at summer camps and rental sites on rivers and lakes. They were so popular that Grumman built a separate boat manufacturing plant in Marathon, 40 miles south of Syracuse, to open up space in Bethpage for Korean War aircraft production in 1952.

Edit to add:

In winter operations, the canoes would ahve been freezing. Bare flesh may have stuck to them.

I can’t find any info on Aluminium Canoes, prior to 1944 that is.

I can’t see how this canoe could have been for military purposes. No matter what you say about the strengths of aluminium compared to fabric and wood, the disadvantages of aluminium don’t make up for the slight advantages over wood and fabric.

To manufacture this canoe would require large amounts of skilled men and hours, takeing them away from construction of say, Aircraft.

The fact that even today special forces use wood and fabric, shows that aluminium is not the be all and end all.

They are quite strong, I have paddled them too, including around some of the more exciting coasts.

It is perplexing to say the least. But there you go. I have a feeling this could have just be a tourist boat that has, er, gone wrong. Why would there be only one? Most raids consisted of more than one canoe.

They didn’t have many attacks under sail either.

I agree that it could be post-war origin,
and that the original caption from the museum could be totally incorect.
since it’s the only picture of anything like it.
What attracted my interest was the fact that it was in a Turkish museum web site. (maybe turkish marines used it) It’s clearly a small, sturdy ocean-going vessel but as for now,
it’s still a mystery!

To be honest I doubt any military force used it, except maybe to test.

The old style boats are still in use by many SF units.

I am thinking tourist around the Greek/Turkish Islands. The Turks may well have found it, but theydont say where. There are plenty of little islands in that area to go exploring. This craft would be ideal.

There are more than one of these boats about…I have seen a posting with pictures taken in a gentlemans back yard in which he was asking for an identification of the boat you describe…one exists in the UK, and if memory serves me right, he has a link to the SBS site on his home page…I posted the link to his site here in the US but cannot now find it…I will continue looking. (The search is, however how I found this site).

Thanks for the info Super Troll, and Good luck in your search,
I wonder if this guy has other unusual things in his backyard?

I’ve been looking into this matter for a year now, with no results.

hi windrider.

my name is quentin rees and i have just set up a google group; WW2 British Military Canoes.

i have just finished my final (i hope) edit of my manuscript. from 160,000 words down to 100,000 words. the publisher said amongst other things that for their liking it was too long.

… the publisher actual said ’ the depth of research in your work is deeply inpressive, although overwhelming might be a better description. you clearly know your subject inside out’ … followed by other constructive critisms which led to the re-write.

here is a synopsis…

Copyright Quentin Rees 2006

WAR CANOES
‘Most Secret’
British Military Canoes
of World War II

‘War Canoes’ is the complete narrative of the British Military canoe designed and manufactured during WW2. Unquestionably this is the first ever account of such craft; it is both accurate and comprehensive. The manuscript is some 100,000 words in length with many previously unpublished B&W photographs available to use.

Very rarely is there an opportunity to bring to the world something that has not been written about before; this is one such rarity.

The ‘War Canoes’ story represents the first and only definitive reference work of the entire History and Development of British Military Canoes during World War Two during 1939 to 1945; but it is indeed much more than this. It contains intricate details woven with events as well as the technology, design and the manufacture of the military canoe; it shows how the world of the canoe coloured so many areas as well as the lives of many skilled individuals.

Whilst it is a very human story about a most unusual mode of warfare it is also a celebration of those individuals who have become part of canoe history, both civilian and Military, some of great fame, many yet to become accredited through this work.

Whilst charting this fascinating evolution of the Military canoe, with the keenness to publicise the Navy’s very small ‘boats’, it is impossible not to include the activities of these craft in a tactical setting and to highlight exactly what was required of the units and therefore the men, to perform the tasks set, using these canoes.

As far as amphibious assaults and reconnaissance with canoes are concerned, a few audacious adventures of the Second World War have been written, but hardly any detailed and accurate information about the ‘accessories’ used in the various raids exist.

Much of the information in the manuscript has never been revealed before.

Few existing publications even mention canoes. Of those that do much is inaccurate and usually found in an appendix. Even the simplest dimensions are wrongly quoted. ‘Not a lot is known about this canoe’ and ‘no information exists’ are perhaps the worst of the quoted references that can be mentioned.

Yet the story of the British military canoe as written is a very interesting one.

Within the manuscript 24 canoes are identified with a full description; with a further 17 canoes dealt with on a lesser scale, this being the entire stock of canoes developed, most unknown to Military historians and therefore the general public. The manuscript is evidenced by original source material, all referenced. Every detail that exists on the British Military canoe during WW2 is reported on.

This work tries not to be too technical but has this element included as an integral of part of the overall requirement to understand the differences and the technology used in the individual canoes. It weaves the description of an intricate series of events within many different fields that have shaped the progress of development from pre-war recreational use of canoes to the needs of the military during WW2, briefly showing how some of these developments have had a direct effect and bearing on a much larger vessel of the modern day.

It tells of the epic journey of progress that canoe development took from Scotland and Cornwall, London, Cambridge, Gosport, Brentford, Warwick, Poole, Southampton, to the Island of Wight in the Solent to the tropical Island of Sri Lanka.

The work chronicles all the detailed specifications and gives a timeline during the trials and tribulations experienced within military canoe development. It explains the journey each particular ‘mark’ took and how the development stages brought about each new genus of canoe for the military. Many of these stages were pivotal moments, giving an important insight into a new organisation that required a fast moving set of operational methodologies in order to deliver what was required.

From the talents of a few the ‘War Canoe’ became a greater craft than that of recreational transport. The military used civilian held skills and technology to push the boundaries; each step was choreographed by need.

Thousands of canoes of various marks and types were sent worldwide from the U.K. as far as Australia, and used operationally. Many details for other clandestine organizations are relatively unknown until now.

The work is a product of real life testimonies within the stories of the Commanders, Inventors, Designers and the University boat race connections; together with many previously unseen photographs. The endeavour is to inform so that even from photographs it is possible to identify each Mark.

The work also describes the purpose and some operations of the units, the Admiralty departments, Combined Operations and its various facets including the various Special Forces activities; each part adding to the raison detre for the canoe, pouring out the very essence of the British spirit. The narrative goes behind the scenes to expose the internal workings; it also explains how many different companies including those in the aviation industry were used to produce the canoes and the links between certain individuals.

There are storylines which included men such as Mountbatten, Tollemarche, Hasler, Montenaro, and individuals within and connected to the C.O.H.Q. as well as the S.O.E. and describes how the S.O.E. and one of the canoe inventors had a direct influence on writings of the author Ian Fleming

Due the military association within the field of amphibious warfare it will be welcomed in the United States as the base from which their hardware evolved – proven links exist in this area are highlight within the manuscript.

The work is not a difficult read; even with the craft descriptions it is easily absorbed. It will be enlightening and yet controversial due to it being in opposition to the small amount of incorrect information published.
The work needed to be written this information has been lost to our nation for long enough – to leave it unpublished would leave a void within British Military History.

Each photograph used is accompanied with a detailed and authoritative caption.

The originality is one of the strongest selling points about the work; it is the ‘missing link’, the means by which clandestine warfare was conducted by the various Special Forces during WW2.

Quite possibly it represents the most comprehensive study ever undertaken in the field of the twentieth-century naval small ‘boats’; deserving the description ‘indispensable’.

i picked up your thread up by an alert set up on google.

Firstly the pic of the canoe … could you send me a copy.

until now i had not seen this example in turkey.

the history of this museums’ canoe…

it was bought around a couple of years ago by someone poss museum chap for the inclusion into this private museum collection. i am unsure how much was paid but it was not cheap; that does not matter as it seems to be a good example. it was bought from an antique dealer in petworth sussex who is a grumpy unco-opreative chap who wanted me to give info so he could sell to states for more money. he tried to convince himself that this was a u.s. kit. its not made in uk by an aircrar maunufacture.

i can tell you that it seems to have the original mast, yard and sail which is only the second one i know of. as to its seaworthiness etc i cannot comment.

a number of examples exist in museums in the uk but these museums have little or no correct info about them. one notable museum spent £1000’s on there display info based on unintelligent research - its all wrong; they even have the wrong manufacturer! i have tried to tell them they have got it wrong and how they got it wrong but if you have made a boo boo its not easy being told!

reference your writings… where to begin! i will tell you what you have wrong.

Grumman did not manufacture this canoe. you will not find any manufacturers plate etc on any examples; all you will find is inspectors stamps and part numbers; i have one and its restored for the water!

The rudder was NOT foot-operated via cables within the hull. this particular canor was developed for the tropics and used by various groups notably detachment 385. they were primarily launched from aircraft such as a catalina; they did usually scuttle any canoe, as they were sailed to safety even if the rv was unsucessful on the first occasion.

machine guns were mounted on this and other canoes. no motars or grenades. think about it.

i could go on but time is pressing. may i suggest you usemy discussion group as i am keen to find out the interest and understanding of the populace.

many books have the wrong info these books only have afew words about the canoes and most of it is inaccurate.

re the MSC ( sleeping Beuaty pic) … its the one that goes underwater… that has much history and its very very very interesting. i am able to briefly (19,000 words) deal with it because it was classified as a canoe!

regards to all

hope this doesnt stir uo too much of an ant’s nest.

Q

please see my info see quentin rees

they guy has since , i think, sold his unseaworthy example. only a few exist undamaged and seaworthy. two to be prcise. i have one. only one (in the uk )has the original sail etc.

there are many other types of canoes tha have never been identified or known about, until now… see my reply quentin rees regards
Q

NEW INFORMATION

my name is quentin rees and i have just set up a google group; WW2 British Military Canoes.

i have just finished my final (i hope) edit of my manuscript. from 160,000 words down to 100,000 words. the publisher said amongst other things that for their liking it was too long. They also said there it was an ‘interesting and saleable’ manuscript.

… the publisher actual said ’ the depth of research in your work is deeply inpressive, although overwhelming might be a better description. you clearly know your subject inside out’ … followed by other constructive critisms which led to the re-write.

some publishers said as no-one had any or very limited knowledge it was hard to guage!

here is the synopsis…

Copyright Quentin Rees 2006/2007

                                                  WAR CANOES  
                       ‘Most Secret’ British Military Canoes of World War II

‘War Canoes’ is the complete narrative of the British Military canoe designed and manufactured during WW2. Unquestionably this is the first ever account of such craft; it is both accurate and comprehensive. The manuscript is some 100,000 words in length with many previously unpublished B&W photographs available.

Very rarely is there an opportunity to bring to the world something that has not been written about before; this is one such rarity.

The ‘War Canoes’ story represents the first and only definitive reference work of the entire History and Development of British Military Canoes during World War Two during 1939 to 1945; but it is indeed much more than this. It contains intricate details woven with events as well as the technology, design and the manufacture of the military canoe; it shows how the world of the canoe coloured so many areas as well as the lives of many skilled individuals.

Whilst it is a very human story about a most unusual mode of warfare it is also a celebration of those individuals who have become part of canoe history, both civilian and Military, some of great fame, many yet to become accredited through this work.

Whilst charting this fascinating evolution of the Military canoe, with the keenness to publicise the Navy’s very small ‘boats’, it is impossible not to include the activities of these craft in a tactical setting and to highlight exactly what was required of the units and therefore the men, to perform the tasks set, using these canoes.

As far as amphibious assaults and reconnaissance with canoes are concerned, a few audacious adventures of the Second World War have been written, but hardly any detailed and accurate information about the ‘accessories’ used in the various raids exist.

Much of the information in the manuscript has never been revealed before.

Few existing publications even mention canoes. Of those that do much is inaccurate and usually found in an appendix. Even the simplest dimensions are wrongly quoted. ‘Not a lot is known about this canoe’ and ‘no information exists’ are perhaps the worst of the quoted references that can be mentioned.

Yet the story of the British military canoe as written is a very interesting one.

Within the manuscript 24 canoes are identified with a full description; with a further 17 canoes dealt with on a lesser scale, this being the entire stock of canoes developed, most UNKNOWN to Military historians and therefore the general public. The manuscript is evidenced by original source material, all referenced. Every detail that exists on the British Military canoe during WW2 is reported on.

This work tries not to be too technical but has this element included as an integral of part of the overall requirement to understand the differences and the technology used in the individual canoes. It weaves the description of an intricate series of events within many different fields that have shaped the progress of development from pre-war recreational use of canoes to the needs of the military during WW2, briefly showing how some of these developments have had a direct effect and bearing on a much larger vessel of the modern day.

It tells of the epic journey of progress that canoe development took from Scotland and Cornwall, London, Cambridge, Gosport, Brentford, Warwick, Poole, Southampton, to the Island of Wight in the Solent to the tropical Island of Sri Lanka.

The work chronicles all the detailed specifications and gives a timeline during the trials and tribulations experienced within military canoe development. It explains the journey each particular ‘mark’ took and how the development stages brought about each new genus of canoe for the military. Many of these stages were pivotal moments, giving an important insight into a new organisation that required a fast moving set of operational methodologies in order to deliver what was required.

From the talents of a few the ‘War Canoe’ became a greater craft than that of recreational transport. The military used civilian held skills and technology to push the boundaries; each step was choreographed by need.

Thousands of canoes of various marks and types were sent worldwide from the U.K. as far as Australia, and used operationally. Many details for other clandestine organizations are relatively unknown until now.

The work is a product of real life testimonies within the stories of the Commanders, Inventors, Designers and the University boat race connections; together with many previously unseen photographs. The endeavour is to inform so that even from photographs it is possible to identify each Mark.

The work also describes the purpose and some operations of the units, the Admiralty departments, Combined Operations and its various facets including the various Special Forces activities; each part adding to the raison detre for the canoe, pouring out the very essence of the British spirit. The narrative goes behind the scenes to expose the internal workings; it also explains how many different companies including those in the aviation industry were used to produce the canoes and the links between certain individuals.

There are storylines which included men such as Mountbatten, Tollemarche, Hasler, Montenaro, and individuals within and connected to the C.O.H.Q. as well as the S.O.E. and describes how the S.O.E. and one of the canoe inventors had a direct influence on writings of the author Ian Fleming

Due the military association within the field of amphibious warfare it will be welcomed in the United States as the base from which their hardware evolved – proven links exist in this area are highlight within the manuscript.

The work is not a difficult read; even with the craft descriptions it is easily absorbed. It will be enlightening and yet controversial due to it being in opposition to the small amount of incorrect information published.
The work needed to be written this information has been lost to our nation for long enough – to leave it unpublished would leave a void within British Military History.

Each photograph used is accompanied with a detailed and authoritative caption.

The originality is one of the strongest selling points about the work; it is the ‘missing link’, the means by which clandestine warfare was conducted by the various Special Forces during WW2.

Quite possibly it represents the most comprehensive study ever undertaken in the field of the twentieth-century naval small ‘boats’; deserving the description ‘indispensable’.

SEE the thread subscribe to windrider / quentin rees.

i should point out i am, seemingly, the leading authority on this subject matter.

regards to all worldwide.

for the U.S.A. there is some relevant information to do with interest from the u.s. about certain canoes during and post WW2

hi

just a query

when u said "This rare and important craft was made in about 1941 by the Grumman Aircraft Corporation of America. …
who told you this?

if it was the musuem its cos they were told by the idiot antique dealer they bought it from in sussex. no doubt this encourage the upwards price .

NO wonder they have taken the image from the site. the turkish museum are feeling a little chilly now!

Q

hi agian
turkish military , i laughed.!

very sturdy , when mrror dingy’s come in cos its too windy this little number comes into its own. it goes through the water like a destroyer.

regards

Q

no longer a mystery vessel lads.

regards
Q

hi sorry to go on
but…
this vessel was bought buy a rep from the museum whilst in the uk its very lik;ly it came off the shelf post surplus or from an old chap who was in forces but never used this but had connections at time. i think i know who where .

its not like the mod day kayaks with watertight conpartments. each section had a watertight bulkhead.

you dont have to go to turkey to see it , there are a few in museums but they dont know what they are! i have one!

please dont post stuff that you dont know is accurate fellows, guessing is not the game.

regards
Q

hi chaps
this aluminuim canoe is 18ft long . i ahve all the dimesions and blurb so stop guessing.

Q

hi agian it was not biult in 1941.

regards
Q
its

hi yet agian
you need to have a look at my reply re ceylon.
Q

hi

it did require skilled men , to be precise aircraft manufacturers, it was built in the same way an aircraft was and had the necessary inspection stamps.

no tourist boat boys!

regrads

Q

hi

there you go agian,… I doubt any military force used it…

this is not good chaps.

Q