Guys!
Here is some reading for both of you. 
All materials in Russian.
But they WERE judged and executed also and for Holodomor, weren’t they?
At least the Moscow tryed to judge the Local Ukrainians communists who was responsible for the SO enourmous victims of famine ( in other regions there were no a such great victims)
The comission arrived to the Ukrain in the 1933 in head with the Narkov of the Agriculture Koganovich ( when the famine has alredy began).
Nothing of the sort they were mainly charged with some conspiring aimed at killing other senior communist functioneers that were false. Just the old Soviet/Russin tradition to get rid of old butchers and appoint new butchers. Remember how many heads of NKVD were executed and each new one acted as the old one as the ordders issued for them were just the same.
Thank you, Egorka, I will get familiar with this information.
As one one can see from the gistogram the backbone of NKVD ( 70 % of the staff) was made up of Russians ( green) and jews ( blue) in 1934 just after Holodomor.
Since 1934 there was a steep rise in the proportion of Russian nationals of NKVD up to almost 70 %. in 1939.
Ukrainians (yellow) comprised about 5% of NKVD staff in 1934.
Till 1938 this figure flactuated between 3-6%.
Kato,
Remember that this graph is for the whole USSR for the period after 1934. The situation in the Ukraina could be somewhat differen.
Here is about the 1920s from an other source:
“Вскоре в национальном составе ОГПУ происходят более значительные изменения. Среди высшего и среднего руководящего звена резко увеличилось число евреев и, в меньшей степени, украинцев. Произошло это за счет “северокавказской группы” Е.Г. Евдокимова, назначенного в 1929 году начальником Секретно-оперативного управления, и приведшего в центральный аппарат лиц, работавших с ним на Правобережной Украине - местах традиционного проживания евреев. Назначенный в 1931 году заместителем председателя ОГПУ зампред ГПУ Украины В. А. Балицкий также перевел в Москву большую группу руководящих работников, евреев и украинцев по национальности.”
Another thing to remember is that sertain number of Ukrainians could quite easily sign up as Russians (according to many todays Ukrainian nationalists it is actualy THEM who re REAL Russians and the Moskaly just stole the Russian identity).
And we know for sure that realy many Jewish, Armenian and other Bolsheviks assumed russian second names.
Regards
Igor
Wait, wait!
In 1934 the reported Russians constituted about 30%. The Jews - 37%. Ukrainians - 5% (third largest group).
The question though where those Jewish members grew up? I would think that by far most of them grew up in the territory of Ukrain (remember the Jewish census territory). But of course they had very little (if nothing) in common with the interests of native Ukrainians.
But if you want tell me that those 37% of Jewish Bolsheviks care about the Russian native population you whould be lieying, whould not you?
Regards
Igor
Another thing to remember is that sertain number of Ukrainians could quite easily sign up as Russians.
There were passports in the USSR that contained that specified the nationality of each person and were given when he/she turned 16. You couldn’t easily change the records of your natioanality even working in NKVD according to the changes of political climate. It would be a serious crime. The staff of NKVD worked under tight control and in the atmosphere of mutual distrust and competetion so such facts would quickly come to the surface and the guilty would be imprisoned at best.
(according to many todays Ukrainian nationalists it is actualy THEM who re REAL Russians and the Moskaly just stole the Russian identity).
They mean that the only Ukraine and Belarus are the successors of Kyiv Rus.
The tzar of Moscovia Peter I changed the name of Moscovia to Russia (from the word derivative from Rus) just out of his political ambitions. That was a kind of hystoric falsification. The word Moskali derived from the name of the country Moskovia. In the Belorussian and Ukrainian language it was the only word to denote a Russian till the 1920s.
In 1934 the reported Russians constituted about 30%. The Jews - 37%. Ukrainians - 5% (third largest group).
No actually only the forth one. The third group was Latvian communists ( dark blue in the chart)
But if you want tell me that those 37% of Jewish Bolsheviks care about the Russian native population you whould be lieying, whould not you?
Jewish Bolsheviks cared for themselves and the interests of the Soviet Communist Party that never tried to annihilate Russians as a seperate ethnic group.
i.e the Jews who cared so much about the Party that hold the ethnical terror against the whole nationalitiy- does it mean that you want to blame the Jews from Comparty in Ethnical henocide, mst Nationalist?
The Comparty NEVER try to annihilate the ANY ethnical group - you clearly know it Kato;)
The Bolshevics “fought” against Class enemy - not against the ethnical /race enemies.
It had no sense coz the Bolshevism/communism was INTERNATIONAL movenment ( to the contrast of the Nazy ideology that was bases on race-superiority).
Bolshevics NEVER try to annihilate the Ethnical group, they ONLY deported some of the Ethnical groups- you know it.
To the contrast with the NAzy and you famouse UPA that was aimed for the Ethnical clearising of the controlled territories- the Bolshevics fought the Class emenies. Another matter is as they did it, and sure they were the cruel.
However this bulshit about Ethnical henocide in Ukraine by the "russians’ - leave this for the pitiful Politicans who make the popularity on the danger nationalis hysteria.
Thanks Egorka.
BTW do you accidentally have the INFOR about the national Staff of Central Commite of Comunist Party of Ukraine in this period?
It would be quite interesting.
So we have
Национальность. Национальный состав высшего руководства НКВД УССР был таким: евреи — 60 (66,67%), русские — 13 (14,44%), украинцы — 6 (6,67%), латыши — 3 (3,33%), поляки — 2 (2,22%), белорус — 1 (1,11%), нет сведений — 5 (5,56%)".
…
In the 1934-35 the National structure of Ukrain department of NKVD was the next:
1.Jews-66%
2.Russians -14%
3. Ukrainians -7%
4. Latvians- 3%
Acording the point of Kato - if the Russians were in the rulling elite of Communist Ukraine- that they certainly organised the Holodomore against Ukrainians.
But as we see from this table the Jews were in 66% among NKVD personal;)
So does the Kato want to say that the Jews WERE guilt in Henocide of Ukrainians?
Yes, Kato. But it is only true for the period after 1974 when there was issued a new law: постановление ЦК КПСС и Совмина СССР “О мерах по дальнейшему совершенствованию паспортной системы в СССР”. Where it was for the first time stated that “all the Soviet stizens form ther age of 16 are obliged to have a passport”. You maybe would be surprised but very-very large share of Soviet people did not have a pasport at all before 1974.
Pasport regim was in force only in the cities. The paisants did have one and actually had problems getting one.
The passports were introdused in USSR on 27 December 1932 and ONLY for the population of the cities, not for peisants. Before that people used for identification all sorts of crap papers like “workers book” (trudovaya knizhka), student ID, metric papers (svidetelstvo o rozhdenii), labour union member ID and even "spravka iz domupravleniya.
Here is a nice overview of passport system in Russia through the centuries.
You couldn’t easily change the records of your natioanality even working in NKVD according to the changes of political climate. It would be a serious crime. The staff of NKVD worked under tight control and in the atmosphere of mutual distrust and competetion so such facts would quickly come to the surface and the guilty would be imprisoned at best.
Right. But it applies ONLY for the period AFTER 27 December 1932. It would not be possible to change the nationality in the existing pasport and papers. But the point is that the pasports were issued based on the previous information. That information could come from any possible sorts of sources back then. Remember that the country suffered a revolution and a civil war. It was a mess. And it is during that mess that this changes not only were possible but happened for sure.
But all this mainly applies to the Jewish bolsheviks. Some of them changed their surname to a more Russian sounding like.
The story with Ukrainians seems different to me. The word UKRAINIAN started to appear only at the begining of the 20th century. And the people settling Ukrain could without problems call them self as Russians (and they did). So they got their metric papers in the Tsar times before 1917 (I my self have one of my Grand-grand-mother). Accordingly many of the people you would call today as Ukrainians were writen as Russians.
Here is nice vivid example for you. You mentioned Kuban, right? Here you are a Kuban kossack Timofei Yaschik (note his nationality in his English passport):
They mean that the only Ukraine and Belarus are the successors of Kyiv Rus.
The tzar of Moscovia Peter I changed the name of Moscovia to Russia (from the word derivative from Rus) just out of his political ambitions. That was a kind of hystoric falsification. The word Moskali derived from the name of the country Moskovia. In the Belorussian and Ukrainian language it was the only word to denote a Russian till the 1920s.
The name Russia was applied to the domain of Moscow as well as the name Moskovia. As far as I know. In the 12th century the areas of Vladimir and Suzdal were reffered to as Russia as well…
And as for the “hystoric falsification”, be carefull as the modern English may get upset as they actually have little in common with original Anglo-Saxons living there before Norman invasion. But I think we will continue this discussion after Holodomor.
Lets see if he has guts for that.
Chevan: BTW do you accidentally have the INFOR about the national Staff of Central Commite of Comunist Party of Ukraine in this period?
Not right now. I guess it is possible to find on the Internet. I will try to look arround. But can not promise anything. 
Read this one: Совслужащие в УССР - 1920-е годы
According to it the distribution of the Central Ukrainian Communist Party Comeete members was the folowing:
People:
01.01.1925 : russians - 34,6%; ukrainians - 15,4%; jews - 30,8%; other - 19,2%.
01.01.1926 : russians - 29,8%; ukrainians - 34,4%; jews - 32,8%; other - 3%.
And here is one of the tables:
The table shows the ethnic distribution of the managers in different ministries in Ukrain on 01.03.1926:
russians - 40,5%; ukrainians - 25,5%; jews - 28,4%; other - 5,6%
Hasn’t this been covered in other threads? :rolleyes:
Thanks mate.
I would to know about the such figures in the early 1930-yy.
But as we could CLERLY see in your table the yarly resault so called Ukrainisation- the forced substitution the Non-Ukrainians in Ukr SSR byt he ethnical ukrainians in Local govenment.
I/m sure if the already in the 1926 the Ukrainians WERE the Majority among the Ukrainians Communists.
So there is no any doubts in the 1931 the situation should be the “Better”.
Done.
I found it.
look at here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainization#1923-1931:_Early_years_of_Soviet_UkraineThe table “Communist Party members
and candidates to membership in Ukraine Comparty”
Year… Members at all…Ukrainians…Russians… Other ( mostly jews)
1925…101,852 … 36,9% …43,4% …19,7%
1927…168,087 … 51,9%… 30,0% …18,1%
1930… 270,698… 52,9%… 29,3% … 17,8%
1933…468,793 … 60,0% …23,0% … 17,0%
So as we could se from this table the Urainisation forced out continuously the Russians form the Ukrain Comparty.
Already in the 1930 there were OVER half of Ukrainians.
Do not need to repeate you gyus that all those Ukrainian Commi WERE directly responsible for the Policy of Colonisation/Collectivisation in Ukraine. The fierced unhuman mehtods of Ukraine local authorities that was the reason of so Holodomor that to the contrast with other regions of USSR was the WORST.
So any attempts to guit the Russians in the events of the 1931-33 is nothing more that the Political propoganda and attempt to avoid the personal responsibility for the unhuman behavior of the Local Ukrainian Communists Authorities toward the OWN population.
Cheers.
I think the famine inflicted a wide swath of the Soviet Union, however, it was purposefully exacerbated by grain confiscations in the Ukraine to extinguish Ukrainian culture…
Holy tue Nick.
And you right the resault of Holodomoe was the wide swath of the entire Soviet Union, but not ONLY the Ukrainians.
However the Local Communists fanatics who so like to lick the ass for the comride Stalin during the Ukrainisation try hard to convert the collectivisation to the real terror - to the contrast of other regions.
removed. Pardon, double posting.
This information was recorded in 1926 г. By the 1932 the proportion of Russian nationals and Jews could rise significantly.
However even these figures testifies that Ukrainians who were the absolute majority in Ukraine were in the absolute minority in the Soviet auithorities of Ukraine.
Posted by Chevan Read this one: Совслужащие в УССР - 1920-е годы
According to it the distribution of the Central Ukrainian Communist Party Comeete members was the folowing:
People:
01.01.1925 : russians - 34,6%; ukrainians - 15,4%; jews - 30,8%; other - 19,2%.
01.01.1926 : russians - 29,8%; ukrainians - 34,4%; jews - 32,8%; other - 3%.[/b]
There is no such data at the link provided by Egorka and mentioned by you.
There is only one position in the party structures called instructer of party regional commissions where Ukrainians ( 37,2%) outnumbered Russians (32,2%) and Jews ( 24,8%) in 1926. The gross figures of the ethnic composition of Soviet authorities in Ukraine indicates that Russians and Jews formed the absolute majority there.
(В указанный период среди инструкторов окружных партийных комитетов евреи составляли 32,2%. Для сравнения: украинцев - 37,2%, русских - 24,8%.)
На 1 января 1925 г. работников русской национальности насчитывалось девять человек, украинской - четыре, прочих — пять, еврейской - восемь, т.е. около 31%. Ровно через год украинцев было уже 22 человека, русских - 19, прочих - 2, евреев - 21 (13%). В указанный период среди инструкторов окружных партийных комитетов евреи составляли 32,2%
В указанный период среди инструкторов окружных партийных комитетов евреи составляли 32,2%. Для сравнения: украинцев - 37,2%, русских - 24,8%. Даже на селе во главе партко¬мов стояло 222 еврея - 7,2% от всего числа секретарей, что превышало численность лиц еврейской национальности в УССР, не говоря уже о сельском еврейском населении.
Аналогичная ситуация наблюдалась и в комсомоле. На конец 1925 г. в ЛКСМУ насчитывалось 14,1% евреев. В составе пленумов окружных комитетов (ОК) их было уже 18,1%, а в рядах рабочих пятерок ОК - уже почти 34,5%, среди инструкторов ОК - 33,3%. Еще выше был процентный состав актива детского коммунистического движения: среди председателей ОДБ - 46,3% (больше, чем русских и украинцев), среди инструкторов ОДБ - 60%. Не были исключением и профсоюзные организации: среди их руководящего состава (1924 г.) евреи составляли 38,8%, столько же насчитывалось работников русской национальности и 17,4% - украинцев.
Holy tue Nick.
And you right the resault of Holodomoe was the wide swath of the entire Soviet Union, but not ONLY the Ukrainians.
However the Local Communists fanatics who so like to lick the ass for the comride Stalin during the Ukrainisation try hard to convert the collectivisation to the real terror - to the contrast of other regions.
I don’t say that the Russian and Jewish Bilsheviks targetted
only Ukrainians in their artificially created hunger. They targetted the non-Russian population of the Volga region in modern Russia and in certain areas of Kazahstan. But there was not a mass artificially created hunger among Russians.
Chevan deliberately distorts facts the politics of Ukrainisation had been stopped by the late 1920s when holodomor took place in 1932-33. Ukrainisation meant only the allowance to use Ukrainian language in some schools, public instititution, print books in Ukrainian. Local Ukrainian communists related to Ukrainistion had been arrested by 1932.
Do not repeat a busl… again Kato
In MY table reflected the ethnical staff of the Ukrain Comparty members.
As we could SEE the PERCENTAGE of the Ukrainian members RISED continiously till the 1933.
At the same time the proportion of Russian decreased constantly.
This WAS A DIRECT RESAULT OF THE Ukrainisation and the Communists nationalistic propoganda in Ukraine.
However even these figures testifies that Ukrainians who were the absolute majority in Ukraine were in the absolute minority in the Soviet auithorities of Ukraine.
wrong again
The Egorka’s table REFLECTS the situation in mid of the 1920-yy.
The MY table showed the RISE of the Ukrainians in the Comparty ( i.e. in the Ukrain Local gov)untill 1933. In the 1933 the Ukrainians were the ABSOLUTE MAJORITY ( over 60%) among the Ukrainian communists and structures of authorities.
There is no such data at the link provided by Egorka and mentioned by you.
Oh really?
Do not repeat it again Kato…
Egorka told about 1925-26., i tell about 1932-33 when the Ukrainians was majority.
The figures of Egorka very close to the datas from Wiki that i’ve mentioned indeed.