Was the Holodomor only and against Ukraine?

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#41

Do somebody hear this guys?
Finaly Mst Kato blamed the Russians and Jews in the Henocide of non-russian population.
Good Kato,very good…:wink:
This is already the Jews who guilt in the taggeted Holodomor agains the Ukrainians.
No you are the definitelly the anti-semite. That i have to confirm.
You use the simple old Nazy anti-semite propoganda point toward the Events in Ukraine in 1933.:wink:

Chevan deliberately distorts facts the politics of Ukrainisation had been stopped by the late 1920s when holodomor took place in 1932-33. Ukrainisation meant only the allowance to use Ukrainian language in some schools, public instititution, print books in Ukrainian. Local Ukrainian communists related to Ukrainistion had been arrested by 1932.

Lie dear Kato;)
Coz political of Ukrainisation was not limited by only the “allowance to use Ukrainian language” in the places where the speaks ONLY in russians ( coz the ukrainians were the insignificant part in the area) but also AND changing the Local Authorities members ( who initially as we sae were mostly the Jewish/Russian) to the Ukrainiians ones.
According to the Bolshevic politic of “Korenisation” the Local ethnical nationalities come to the power.
And you are wrong about Local ukrains who related to the Ukrainisatin were arrested in 1932.
The absolute majority of the Ukrainians who come to the party due to the Ukrainisation svaed its places and posts in Ukraine gov except the few odious commi leaders who were arrested and shot to death soon as the scapegoat for the Mistakes of Local gov befor the Holodomor.
Sure the motives of execution of them were deeper - Stalin had the own political aim. But fact that those Ukrainian Communist were responsible for all crimes and holodomore IS OBVIOUS.
And do not make us laught to say that somebody ( jews or Moskali) were guilt in the Henocide you OWN people- YOU Rown commi were guilt for this, no one more

#42

Posted by Chevan

The Comparty NEVER try to annihilate the ANY ethnical group - you clearly know it Kato;)

The Bolshevics “fought” against Class enemy - not against the ethnical /race enemies.

The deliberate murder of the millions upon millions of the people of the definite nationality within 18-20 months. almost 100% of these Ukrainian victims were the underprivelaged peasants who were promised personal land by communists in 1917 and who should have been protected and economically supported by The Comparty of the Soviet Union and its punitive machine if they had “fought” against Class enemies who were actually absent in Ukraine since 1922.

It had no sense coz the Bolshevism/communism was INTERNATIONAL movenment ( to the contrast of the Nazy ideology that was bases on race-superiority).

This INTERNATIONAL movenment in the Soviet Union of 1930s-1950s was the international movement of Russians and Russificated Jews.

Bolshevics NEVER try to annihilate the Ethnical group, they ONLY deported some of the Ethnical groups- you know it.

The deportations were carried out only for the annihilations of definite
nationalities. The annihilation was reached by removing the whole nation ( if it a small one) or some parts of the nation from its homeland to the remote territories with severe climate and without almost any means for sirvival where some proportion of them died. Those who survived should have been assimilated by breaking their ties with their homelands.

#43

Posted by Chevan

wrong again
The Egorka’s table REFLECTS the situation in mid of the 1920-yy.
The MY table showed the RISE of the Ukrainians in the Comparty ( i.e. in the Ukrain Local gov)untill 1933. In the 1933 the Ukrainians were the ABSOLUTE MAJORITY ( over 60%) among the Ukrainian communists and structures of authorities.

Your table related only to the general figure of Ukrainian party members in the puppet UkrCom party.

It does not reflect the sphere were they worked. So the majority of these Ukraininians members of UkrCom party were ordinary workers, miners etc.

While the table provided by Egorka showed the ethnical makeup of the people who were managers in the ministries, judges or bosses in the punitive organs of the Soviet regime.

#44

A buls…again.
Kato you clearly know that the “decret about Land” was the second law of Bolsevics in the 1918. They simply tryed to join the peasants to the their side.
They deceived all Russian impare’s peasants - not ONLY Ukrainian ones.

This INTERNATIONAL movenment in the Soviet Union of 1930s-1950s was the international movement of Russians and Russificated Jews.

Good… again the Russificated Jews… very nice mst Goebbels, tell us more about Russificated Evil Jews who deserved to be murdered for the Holodomor and ets;)

The deportations were carried out only for the annihilations of definite
nationalities. The annihilation was reached by removing the whole nation ( if it a small one) or some parts of the nation from its homeland to the remote territories with severe climate and without almost any means for sirvival where some proportion of them died. Those who survived should have been assimilated by breaking their ties with their homelands.

Ha hA ha ;)…:smiley:
That a really fun Kato.
The deportation mean …annihilations;)

Do yo know for instance that the population of deported Chechens has increased OVER twice since 1944 untill the his coming back in Kavkaz .
And the Deported from the Western Ukraine 300 000 Poles in 1939-40 to Syberia WERE SAVED from the TOTAL HENOCIDE and annihilation by the UPA ethnical terror in 1943-44.
At least 70% of them had received the chance to come back to the Poland after the war due to deportation.
You are fanny man Kato.

#45

In the 1926… His tables touch the 1925-26 do you understand it?
Besides YOU clearly know that not only the “ordinary workers, miners etc” has been the communists BUT FIRSTLY the ALL State officials and , all ministers and CERTAINLY all members of Local govenment.( coz the authorities were under controll of Ukrain Party) )
Coz the reason is simple - if you want to make a carier in soviet Russia - you HAVE to be the communists members.
The Irony of destiny is - they also were responsible for the Policy of the Party and its terror.

#46

Coz political of Ukrainisation was not limited by only the “allowance to use Ukrainian language” in the places where the speaks ONLY in russians ( coz the ukrainians were the insignificant part in the area) but also AND changing the Local Authorities members ( who initially as we sae were mostly the Jewish/Russian) to the Ukrainiians ones.

Don’t make people laugh. The rural population of the South and Eastern Ukraine had been 100 % Ukrainian speaking by 1932. Only after Holodomor when there was a huge influx of Russians to these artificially depopulated lands the Russian language gained some role a spoken language. This role increased after the WWII and a new genocide of Ukrainians by hunger in 1946.

#47

A buls…again.
Kato you clearly know that the “decret about Land” was the second law of Bolsevics in the 1918. They simply tryed to join the peasants to the their side.
They deceived all Russian impare’s peasants - not ONLY Ukrainian ones.

You must admit that Ukrainians rural inhabitants objectively were not class enemies according to the Marx doctrine used as the official ideology.

#48

Well well the Ukrainisation in the 1920-yy, the forced
adoption of Ukrain language in the areas where the peoples prefered to speaks russian ,Building the Ukrainian churchs and ets…- were after the Holodomor;)
Interesting point

#49

Ha hA ha …
That a really fun Kato.
The deportation mean …annihilations

Do yo know for instance that the population of deported Chechens has increased OVER twice since 1944 untill the his coming back in Kavkaz .
And the Deported from the Western Ukraine 300 000 Poles in 1939-40 to Syberia WERE SAVED from the TOTAL HENOCIDE and annihilation by the UPA ethnical terror in 1943-44.
At least 70% of them had received the chance to come back to the Poland after the war due to deportation.
You are fanny man Kato.

You will evidently be satisfied only if all the male Chechens hed been made impotents. They are of Islamic denomination and naturally had large familes with many children.

The Russians admiited that they have killed more than 200000 Chechens out 2 millons in Chechnia since the early 1990. However there population of the Chechens remained stable due to high birth-rate.

For instance in Congo or some other African country millions of people die from HIV and war each year but the population quickly increases due to high birth rates.

#50

Yea … tell me the fary tells any more;)
And who were the Kulaks if the not Class enemies- have you forgeted it?
The Kulaks as the class should be luquidated -the collectivisation were direct firstly and mainly agains the Kulaks.

#51

So they were no annihilated , were not they ?
So you have finaly refused own point that the deportation mean the annihilation;)

The Russians admiited that they have killed more than 200000 Chechens out 2 millons in Chechnia since the early 1990. However there population of the Chechens remained stable due to high birth-rate.

That’s ruight ,
Exactly this fact proves that the DEPORTATION of the Chechen peoples was a Good ACTION that prevented the thousands of Chechens and other ethnical minorities who could be killed in the fierced Civil and religious war in the 1944-45.As it was in the 1992-2000.
The deportation indeed saved the thousands of them live.

#52

Originally Posted by Kato
Don’t make people laugh. The rural population of the South and Eastern Ukraine had been 100 % Ukrainian speaking by 1932. Only after Holodomor when there was a huge influx of Russians to these artificially depopulated lands the Russian language gained some role a spoken language. .

Well well the Ukrainisation in the 1920-yy, the forced
adoption of Ukrain language in the areas where the peoples prefered to speaks russian ,Building the Ukrainian churchs and ets…- were after the Holodomor
Interesting point

I don’t understand your point. I want you to remind that the Ukrainian language was turned into the language of peasants and some marginalised and pursecuted Intelligentsia
in Ukraine controlled by the tzar Russia before 1917.
There were a series of bans totally prohibiting the usage of Ukrainian in the education, theatrical performance, book , newspapers publishing.

Bolsheviks simply did not start to restore some of the most odious bans on the Ukrainian language and let the local peasants use this language which was traditional for them in other spheres but their kitchen-gardens

#53

That’s all Kato for tonight.
Its time to go to bad .

will see tomorrow.

Cheers.
P.S. thanks for the merry evening;):slight_smile:

#54

Posted by Chevan
So they were no annihilated , were not they ?
So you have finaly refused own point that the deportation mean the annihilation

Following your logic if not all the European Jews were killed there was no Holocaust

The Russians admiited that they have killed more than 200000 Chechens out 2 millons in Chechnia since the early 1990. However there population of the Chechens remained stable due to high birth-rate.

Posted by Chevan
That’s ruight ,
Exactly this fact proves that the DEPORTATION of the Chechen peoples was a Good ACTION that prevented the thousands of Chechens and other ethnical minorities who could be killed in the fierced Civil and religious war in the 1944-45.As it was in the 1992-2000.
The deportation indeed saved the thousands of them live.

So as I see you still are for the deportations and genocides of civilians. In stead of war you are for quiet genocide of unarmed woman and children.

#55

Again no;)
Folowing the any LOGIC at all - Nazy never covered the fact they want to “Clear the Europe from the jews”. Through the mass killing or through the mass deportation to the Concetration camps ( this is still the disputable question in the west).
However they OFFICIALLY DECLARED the race-superiority policy toward the all non-arian races .
You clearly know it Kato - the NAzy hold the ethnical teror.
The Bolshevic never declared the ethnical terror- they declared itself as the Internationalists.
The any race oriented slogans or actions of Bolshevics would INEVITABLE have the anti-semitic resault for them.( You know why).

So as I see you still are for the deportations and genocides of civilians. In stead of war you are for quiet genocide of unarmed woman and children.

Yea … i/m still for deportation, gulag, stalin, holodomor… and Peacefull GREAT communists FUTURE…:wink:
LalaLa…Oh this homesickness.
You do not hear me Kato.
Indeed the Chechen had the alternative in the 1944 - mass terror through the Civil and Religion war ( as it was in 1993-2000 when were killed 200 000 , about 150 000 of russians who lived in Groznjy and other chechen centres , and about 50 000 of other ethnical groups) .
Or they could be deporte to the GULAG - where the DEATH rate was MUCH MORE.
So indeed the deportation to the Kazahstan and Syberia wasn’t the WORST dicision for them.

#56

This is not all.
You forget that bolshevics NOT ONLY did not restore the Tsar’s bans , they have declared the Policy of the Korenization - they needs an strong NAtional opposition against formed (Russian imperial) elite and intelligencia.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Украинизация#.D0.A1.D0.BE.D0.B2.D0.B5.D1.82.D1.81.D0.BA.D0.B0.D1.8F_.D1.83.D0.BA.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B8.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B7.D0.B0.D1.86.D0.B8.D1.8F_1920.E2.80.941930-.D1.85_.D0.B3.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.BE.D0.B2

Во время гражданской войны в 1917-20 годах на юге бывшей Российской Империи был организован ряд правительств, ставивших своей целью построение независимого украинского государства. Однако, на большей части современной территории Украины к власти пришли большевики. С целью закрепления власти, большевики взялись за реализацию программы коренизации — замены русского языка на языки национальных меньшинств в администрации, образовании и сфере культуры. На Украине эта программа получила название украинизации. В апреле 1923 г. XII съезд РКП(б) объявил ‘коренизацию’ официальным курсом партии в национальном вопросе. В том же месяце VII конференция КП(б)У заявила о политике ‘украинизации’, что украинские ЦИК и Совнарком сразу же оформили декретами. Было принято решение об украинизации госструктур и предприятий, которую планировалось закончить до 1 января 1926 года. Все рабочие и служащие предприятий и учреждений были обязаны выучить украинский язык под угрозой увольнения с работы.
Из государственного архива Луганской области:[1]

«Подтвердить, что на службу можно принимать только лиц, владеющих украинским языком, а не владеющих можно принимать только по согласованию с Окружной комиссией по украинизации». Р-401 оп.1,д.82 Президиум Луганского Окр. исполкома: «Подтвердить сотрудникам, что неаккуратное посещение курсов и нежелание изучать украинский язык влечет за собой их увольнение со службы». Р-401, оп.1, дело 72.

В июле 1930 года президиум Сталинского окрисполкома принял решение «привлекать к уголовной ответственности руководителей организаций, формально относящихся к украинизации, не нашедших способов украинизировать подчиненных, нарушающих действующее законодательство в деле украинизации». Украинизировались газеты, школы, вузы, театры, учреждения, надписи, вывески и т. д. В Одессе, где учащиеся-украинцы составляли менее трети, были украинизированы все школы. В 1930 г. на Украине оставалось только 3 большие русскоязычные газеты.

Однако в постановлении ЦК КП(б)У от 19 апреля 1927 решено «признать особое значение русского языка». В последующие годы, в частности начиная с 1930, в партийных кругах усиливается активное противостояние украинизации. В 1932—1933 насильственная украинизация была временно приостановлена.

Наряду с украинизацией аналогичная политика коренизации проводилась и в других республиках. В процессе сворачивания коренизации эта политика была раскритикована как «национал-уклонизм» и многих деятелей, которые её поддерживали, впоследствии исключили из коммунистической партии.
…
During the Civil War in 1917-20 years in the south of the former Russian Empire the number of the governments, which set the construction of the independent Ukrainian state, was organized as their goal. However, on the larger part of the contemporary territory of the Ukraine at the authority arrived Bolsheviks. For the purpose of the fastening of authority, the Bolsheviks undertook the implementation of the program of korenizatsii - the replacement of the Russian language the languages of national minorities in the administration, the formation and the sphere of culture. In the Ukraine this program was called Ukrainization. During April 1923 THE XII congress UkrCP declared “korenizatsion”; by the official policy of party in a national question. In the same month THE VII conference KP(b)U stated about the policy of “ukrainizatsion”, that Ukrainian TCIK council of peoples commissars immediately designed by decrees. Was accepted the solution about the Ukrainization of state structures and enterprises, which it was planned to finish until 1 January, 1926.
All workers and employees of enterprises and establishments were obligated to learn Ukrainian language under the threat of release from the work. From the Public Archive Of the Lugansk area:“to confirm that upon the service it is possible to assume only those, who manage Ukrainian language, but who do not manage it is possible to assume only according to the agreement with the neighborhood commission on Ukrainization”.
P -401 of op.y, d.82 presidium The luganskogo dist. of the executive committee: “to confirm to colleagues that careless visit it is course and the unwillingness to study Ukrainian language entails their release from the service”.
R -401, op.y, matter 72. During July 1930 the presidium of Stalin area comite made the decision “to assign on the penal responsibility of the leaders of the organizations, which formally relate to the Ukrainization, which did not find the methods to Ukrainianize subordinates, which disrupt the current legislation in the matter of Ukrainization”.
Were Ukrainianized newspapers, schools, Institute of Higher Education, theaters, establishments, inscriptions, signboards, etc.
In Odessa, where the study- Ukrainians comprised less than third, were Ukrainianized all schools. In 1930 in the Ukraine it remained only 3 large russian-speaking newspapers. However, in the decision TSK To kP(b)U of 19 April 1927 is decided “to recognize the special importance of the Russian language”. During the subsequent years, in particular beginning from 1930, in the party circles is strengthened active opposition to Ukrainization. Forced Ukrainization was temporarily stopped in 1932 - 1933.
Together with the Ukrainization the analogous policy of korenizatsii was conducted also in other republics. In the process of the displacement of korenizatsii this policy was criticized severely as “national- deviationism” and many workers, who supported it, subsequently they excluded from the Communist Party.

As we see the first and direct resault of Ukrainisatin was - to widely involve the Ukraininas in the Soviet structures of power, management of the industry and ets.
The condition of assuming to the works was NOT equal for the Russians and native Ukrainians.
This explain the quick rise of Ukrainians in the power structures, ComParty and ets in the end of 1920-yy.
The Ukrainisation - the forced imposing of Ukraine language and culture in regions like Odessa where the Ukrainians were minorities- was resault of culttural and language discrimination of the non-ukrainians ( jews, russaina and others).

#57

Posted by Chevan

Again no
Folowing the any LOGIC at all - Nazy never covered the fact they want to “Clear the Europe from the jews”. Through the mass killing or through the mass deportation to the Concetration camps ( this is still the disputable question in the west).
However they OFFICIALLY DECLARED the race-superiority policy toward the all non-arian races .
You clearly know it Kato - the NAzy hold the ethnical teror.

The only difference is in the cover. The Russian and Jewish Bolsheviks used as the cover for their ethnic terror class ideology. The German Nazi worked out some myths about arians, arian nations.
The time showed that the cover of Bolsheviks was much better from political point of view than the racial cover ( or actually the absence of any cover) that was openly announced immediately after Germans seized some new territory.

The any race oriented slogans or actions of Bolshevics would INEVITABLE have the anti-semitic resault for them.( You know why).

The actions of Bolshevics had significant anti-semitic and anti-Russian effects.

The Bolshevic never declared the ethnical terror- they declared itself as the Internationalists.

Well considering the bunch of nations declared arian that from the very beginning include such different nations as Germans, Italians, Japanese, Hungarins, Finns, Croats etc. that belong to absolutely different ethnic groups you can call Greman Nazi internationalists as well. What’s more since 1943 they started to create national SS units ( initially SS was considered to form the elite of arians) literally from everyone who volonteered. They even recruited Arabs and Tuaregs who were of mixed Arabian-Black origin. So one can call fascists as internationalists.

#58

Posted by Chevan:

Holodomor?Why not?
Good idea Nick.
Mate the Holodomore wasn’t the ethnical terror- it was a common policy in the Whole USSR in the beginning of the 1930. Not only in Ukraine.
The victims of Holodomor among the all ethnical groups.

According to estimates[44] about 81.3% of the victims in 1932-33 were ethnic Ukrainians, 4.5% Russians, 1.1% were Poles. Many Belarusians, Hungarians, Volga Germans and Crimean Tatars became victims as well. The Ukrainian rural population was the hardest hit by the Holodomor. Since the peasantry constituted a demographic backbone of the Ukrainian nation,[46] the tragedy deeply affected the Ukrainians for many years. There are no doubts that artificially-created hunger in Ukraine was the most brutal form of ethnical terror. Some historians claim that nearly all this 4.5% of people who died mainly in the regions populated by Ukrainians outside UKraine and who were listed as Russians were also of Ukrainian origin.

Posted by Chevan
However the reason of such great death rate in Ukrain was the RESAULT of policy own Ukrainians Communists and Personaly , ardent ukrainizator, the chairman OF SNK OF UKRAINIAN SSR Chubar who signed the special inhuman decision “fight with the sabotage”. ( tha key law that forbid any selling and importing the food to the Ukraine from the oher regions).

It is nonsence. One could believe it if Ukraine was an independent state then.
But it was a country that was a part of the USSR and fully controlled by Moscow. The proportion of Russians and Russificated Jews who held the average and higher positions in the local “Ukrainian” authorities was roughly about 70%, 10 % other nationals and only 20% Ukrainians. Everyone knows that the USSR had the plan economy. In the plan economy of the USSR everything was thoroghly regulated and controlled by the central government and ministries in Moscow up to what bolts should be produced and in what quantity at some particular plant. So it is evident that all those campaigns of confiscations in Ukraine were initiated, planned and controlled by Moscow. The ban on importing food from other regions was imposed by Moscow. Chubar was on the errands of the communists of Russia and had nothing to do with Ukrainisation. There are hundreds of documents testifying that Moscow demanded to confiscate all the food-stuffs from Ukrainian peasants, deployed units of NKVD and the Red Army from Russia to block the Ukrainian regions inflicted with the artificailly created hunger and kill all those who attempted to leave them. The central communist government in Moscow denied Holodomor or mass hunger and tried to prevent all the leaks of information about this tragedy for decades till the USSR collapsed in the 1991. Moscow refused to accept the international humanitarian aid in 1933 declaring the absence of hunger in Ukraine. Russian and Jewish communists in Moscow had the full information and control over the situation in Ukraine and did their best to inflict as much losses to the Ukrainian nation as possible. They openly announced holodomor as the war against nationalistic counter-revolution in Ukraine.

#59

This is the original text of the directive issued by the central government in Moscow to prevent Ukrainians from leaving Ukraine for other parts of the USSR using all possible means during holodomor in 1933. It was for both the soviet authorities in Ukraine and in neighbouring Russia and Belarus. Signed by Molotov and Stalin

Директива ЦК ВКП(б) и СНК СССР в связи с массовым выездом крестьян за пределы Украины
Материал из Викитеки — свободной библиотеки
Перейти к: навигация, поиск
22 января 1933 г.

Ростов-Дон, Харьков, Воронеж, Смоленск, Минск, Сталинград, Самара

N. 65/ш

До ЦКВК и СНК дошли сведения, что на Кубани и Украине начался массовый выезд крестьян «за хлебом» в ЦЧО, на Волгу, Московскую обл., Западную обл., Белоруссию. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком СССР не сомневаются, что этот выезд крестьян, как и выезд из Украины в прошлом году, организован врагами Советской власти, эсерами и агентами Польши с целью агитации «через крестьян» в северных районах СССР против колхозов и вообще против Советской власти. В прошлом году партийные, советские и чекистские органы Украины прозевали эту контрреволюционную затею врагов Советской власти. В этом году не может быть допущено повторение прошлогодней ошибки.

Первое. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком СССР предписывают крайкому, крайисполкому и ПП ОГПУ Северного Кавказа не допускать массовый выезд крестьян из Северного Кавказа в другие края и въезд в пределы края из Украины.

Второе. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком предписывают ЦК КП(б)У, Балицкому и Реденсу не допускать массовый выезд крестьян из Украины в другие края и въезд на Украину из Северного Кавказа.

Третье. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком предписывают ПП ОГПУ Московской обл., ЦЧО, Западной обл., Белоруссии, Нижней Волги и Средней Волги арестовывать пробравшихся на север «крестьян» Украины и Северного Кавказа и после того, как будут отобраны контрреволюционные элементы, водворять остальных в места их жительства.

Четвертое. ЦК ВКП и Совнарком предписывают ТО ГПУ Прохорову дать соответствующее распоряжение по системе ТО ГПУ.

Предсовнарком СССР В. М. Молотов Секретарь ЦК ВКП(б) И. Сталин

(РГАСПИ. Ф. 558.Оп. 11. Д. 45. Л. 109-109об.)