Wehrmacht exhibition

World War II German Military
#41

Surely not!

According to freyir_33 the Heer and Wehrmacht (which he thinks are the same thing) were rabid Nazis storming across Europe as the spearhead of the Holocaust, which freyir_33 somehow sees as being linked to that order, Soviet political commissars apparently being the primary source of Jews for the concentration and death camps. What a revelation! :rolleyes:

And here you are, FTG, saying that both the Heer and higher Wehrmacht command pressed successfully for repeal of that order. Where does that leave freyir_33’s remorseless refusal to accord any honour or source of pride to the Heer or Wehrmacht? Or any German people during WWII?

I guess it’s left to Holocaust deniers and revisionists like me to re-state the position that there were many examples of proper and moral conduct by German forces in WWII, as in the example FTG has given, and that contrary to freyir_33’s assertion that Germans have nothing to be proud of in WWII they have a good deal to be proud of.

And are entitled to be proud of, on a very large and prolonged scale, in occupied France where generally they behaved correctly and considerably better than some Allied troops from mid-1944. Which, given German animosity towards France over the 1918 terms and subsequent French treatment, is all the more deserving of respect for correct behaviour.

#42

From whom?! I’ve never presented “Wiki as reliable.” There are pages that are well written and mostly factual, then there are agendists that start overly broad topics and cite negligible historians as is the case with the “10,000” number with a smattering of Axis-apologetic…

The problem with rapes, is there a few actual sources to underline the numbers, but As far as my wife has told me, the US trops in Phillipines also raped quite a few girls, many of minor age.

Oh, anecdotal history…

I am full aware that of the fact that rapes committed by the Allied, was not an organized part of the conquest, like the Japanese brothels etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes

Of course, rapes were committed everywhere. It has more to do with the scale of the problem and the command reaction to it. “Allied War Crimes” are often just apologist speculation and -oh yeah- troll flame-bait…US troops also nearly opened fire on Colonial French-Algerian Berger soldiers in Italy for their rampaging through the Italian countryside…

#43

Mate , you will laugh but source is the American
^ Schrijvers, Peter (2002). The GI War Against Japan. New York City: New York University Press. p. 212. ISBN 0814798160.

Yes, a very reliable source, and always highly regarded by professional and serious amateur military historians. :rolleyes:

Oh it was ENOUGH reliable source when we discussed the Soviet/Germans crimes, right?. Why it’s suddenly turned to be not reliable if to deal the Allied crimes?
I don’t think that Wiki is a standart meter oh historical true and accuracy, but though.
BTW there a few about Australians

"A former prostitute recalled that as soon as Australian troops arrived in Kure in early 1946, they ‘dragged young women into their jeeps, took them to the mountain, and then raped them. I heard them screaming for help nearly every night’."The Allied occupation forces suppressed news of its criminal activities, on September 10 1945 SCAP “issued press and pre-censorship codes outlawing the publication of all reports and statistics ‘inimical to the objectives of the Occupation’.”
Allan Clifton, an Australian officer of the BCOF who acted as interpreter and criminal investigator wrote:

"I stood beside a bed in hospital. On it lay a girl, unconscious, her long, black hair in wild tumult on the pillow. A doctor and two nurses were working to revive her. An hour before she had been raped by twenty soldiers. We found her where they had left her, on a piece of waste land. the hospital was in Hiroshima. the girl was Japanese. The soldiers were Australians.
The Moaning and wailing had ceased and she was quiet now. The tortured tension on her face had slipped away, and the soft brown skin was smooth and unwrinkled, stained with tears like the face of a child that has cried herself to sleep.
As to Australian justice he writes regarding another rape that was witnessed by a party of cardplayers:

"At the court martial that followed, the accused was found guilty and sentenced to ten years penal servitude. In accordance with army law the courts decision was forwarded to Australia for confirmation. Some time later the documents were returned marked 'Conviction quashed because of insufficient evidenc

Ding dong!!!
Where is Antony Beevour when he needed?:slight_smile:
Red Army 2: Dowfall of Kure :mrgreen:
I really didn’t know that Allied command suppressed the infor about rapes.

#44

Do you mean his missus is talking out of her anecdote? :wink: :smiley:

#45

Do you mean his missus is talking out of her anecdote? :wink: :D[/QUOTE]

I think, gentlemen, you’ll find that in this case it’s written ‘anecdateal herstory.’ :wink:

#46

I don’t have the book so all I can go on is the Wiki entry, which you’ll see from my post above is questioned by the Wiki people as no source is quoted for the claimed figure of upwards of 10,000.

Well, it might have been enough for you then, but I don’t think I used it too much. :wink: :smiley:

Yes, and for any Australian occupation troops who behaved like that it was appalling behaviour which should have resulted in proper criminal processes and punishments against the offenders.

However, it should be noted that contrary to freyir_33’s assertions about rapes in 1945 the Wiki entries about Australian troops all refer to occupation troops in 1946, many of whom were not combat troops from the war. As is often the case with REMFs, they can be the worst in raping, looting and pillaging, as was the case in France in the second half of 1944 when rape of French women by American REMFs, predominantly Negroes in some areas which it is now politically incorrect to mention, became a serious problem. Then again, it might be that Negroes were sacrificed where white offenders weren’t prosecuted with the same vigour in an army which confined Negroes largely to REMF functions.

What did you think they would do?

Take out a full page advertisements in the New York Times? :wink: :smiley:

#47

Ah!

Like the calendar cat.

Always showing its date. :smiley:

#48

Yes i do use it.
And Nick used it:D
As for my friend Kovalsky - he loves to quote ONLY Wiki about Katyn:)

Yes, and for any Australian occupation troops who behaved like that it was appalling behaviour which should have resulted in proper criminal processes and punishments against the offenders.

However, it should be noted that contrary to freyir_33’s assertions about rapes in 1945 the Wiki entries about Australian troops all refer to occupation troops in 1946, many of whom were not combat troops from the war. As is often the case with REMFs, they can be the worst in raping, looting and pillaging, as was the case in France in the second half of 1944 when rape of French women by American REMFs, predominantly Negroes in some areas which it is now politically incorrect to mention, became a serious problem. Then again, it might be that Negroes were sacrificed where white offenders weren’t prosecuted with the same vigour in an army which confined Negroes largely to REMF functions.

What ?
Damn , you know how to wonder me allways.
Now i’ve learn , quite by the chance, that USA REMFs also raped the Frenchs just like soviets did in poland.
:slight_smile:

What did you think they would do?

Take out a full page advertisements in the New York Times? :wink: :smiley:

Why in NEw York Times, mate.
At least in Soviet newspaper “Pravda” for begin:)
Its a democracy or how?

#49

The German counterpart - the NSFO (National-sozialistischer Führungsoffizier) - was introduced in late 1943 on Hitler’s order. The main difference (except the contains of their sermons) to the Soviet Commissars would be the fact that NSFO’s were regular army officers (not SS!) and their Nazi education duties were actually an auxiliary function.

I don’t know what was happend with them, beeing captured by Red Army.

They didn’t have special uniforms or badges etc. So, if they were smart enough to get rid of their pay books on time or if they weren’t denunciated, the Red Army wouldn’t even know…

#50

Now I’m wondering what I said to make you wonder. What was it? Because I’m wondering what you’re wondering about. :wink: :slight_smile:

Mate, if the non-Soviet, non-Chinese Allies were going to publish anything anywhere about anything bad about Allied behaviour, Pravda would have had to be an attractive destination. Particularly as it would have been printed in Russian, which hardly anyone outside Russia could read. And as Moscow newsagents probably didn’t home-deliver much past Poland. :slight_smile:

#51

Anecdotal history is the basic foundation of most research on rape crimes, one way or another. But off course Wicki is not always the most reliable source, but it is as god as it’s list of literature I guess, and some of information on Wicki are even better than many amateur history sources I have seen.

#52

And if some of you need a reliable sorce on behalf the Crimes of the Wermacht, I will recommend this book, it is in German though. You can also find it online at Cambridge universitys homepage, I hope that source are reliable enough.

Wehrmacht und Vernichtungspolitik: Militär im nationalsozialistischen System. Edited by Karl Heinrich Pohl. Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. 1999. Pp. 175. DM 29.00. ISBN 3-525-01382-5.

or this one in English

Hitler’s War in the East, 1941-1945 Af Rolf-Dieter Müller, Gerd R. Ueberschär, Bibliothek für Zeitgeschichte

#53

That would be the very same Karl Heinrich Pohl who attested the Wehrmachtsausstellung “a most disputable conception” and called it “adverse to attenders”.

or this one in English

Hitler’s War in the East, 1941-1945 Af Rolf-Dieter Müller, Gerd R. Ueberschär, Bibliothek für Zeitgeschichte

And it was Prof. Rolf-Dieter Müller, scientific director of the military-historic office for research in Potsdam, who criticized the original exhibition’s “suggestive and scandalising manner of presentation” and especially “the masking of coherencies connected to the Wehrmacht’s crimes.”

#54

Help! I’m being attacked with Cockney rhyming slang! :confused:

#55

But there is a distinction between various Wiki pages which vary widely in quality and scholarship. While Wiki is not a very reliable, concrete source as a result, there are basic red flags when a lack of verifiable sources is noted by the Wiki staff themselves. As noted, there was no specific listing of the author in the listed number other than the obviously sarcastic “weasel word” or “who?”.

Also, I believe the quote was “as many as 10,000” which, like the page topic itself, is a pretty glib and broad comment…

I am aware of a case where about roughly four black American “remf” soldiers that repeatedly went to a Okinawan village and raped several girls night after night until the villagers rose up and killed them. The men were listed as missing in action and no known reprisal was conducted against the villagers and the incident only came to light in the last fifteen years I believe when their remains were found hidden in a cave…

I’m certainly not denying that rapes happened, just were the number “10,000” comes from as there seems to be almost no other historians concurring with this tab…

What ?
Damn , you know how to wonder me allways.
Now i’ve learn , quite by the chance, that USA REMFs also raped the Frenchs just like soviets did in poland.
:slight_smile:
…

I’ve stated this before, and I believe you asked me for information regarding the text it came from which was “An Army at Dawn” by Rick Atkinson…

And again, it was a horrible incident that was the exception, not the norm…

#56

As luck would have it, a copy is available via Google Books on pg. 463 of the text:

http://books.google.com/books?id=RUgSW8r2bMwC&pg=RA1-PA616&dq=An+Army+at+Dawn"+by+Rick+Atkinson&client=firefox-a#PPA463,M1

#57

An eye opener exhibition, too bad that probably we never going to see something similar in display in Moscow, dealing with Red Army crimes.

#58

Is the situation that bad you think?

#59

Or arrange one about the crimes of Pinot chet in Buenos Aires, No offence ment!, I have many Argentinian friends who came to live here as Political refuges.

#60

Yes , flamethrowerguy you fight.
Thank you for correction.it was in 1943.