Many thanks, Dani
Cheers.
You’re welcome mate.
OK , Lanser , this is what I found in the russian
http://katyn.ru/- This the most objective of the sources in my view
http://www.usatruth.by.ru/sssrmify7.htm вот ссылка (правда сплошным текстом но можно и получше ссылку поискать)
Почитай. очень интересно на мой взгляд , хотя и много эмоций. Автор интересно опровергает путем размышлений т.н. “доказательства команды Геббельса”.
Thanks a lot Chevan.
"At the beginning of the newspaper publicity, concerning KATYN, I believed the whole thing to be one huge, well managed, disparate lie by the Germans to split the Western Allies from Russia.
I hated the Germans. I didn’t want to believe them. At that time, like many others, I more or less believed that Russia could get along with us.
When I became involved in the visit to Katyn I realized that the Germans would do their best to convince me that Russia was guilty. I made up my mind not to be convinced by what must be a propaganda effort.
The apparent weak spot in the German story was the fact that Germany had occupied the ground around Smolensk for a long time before announcing the discovery of the graves. The exact dates are a matter of record. I don’t have the facilities to look them up for entry in this report.
I wanted to believe that whole thing was a frame-up. Could these be bodies from an extermination camp, dressed as Polish officers and “planted”? Could the letters, diaries, identification tags, news clippings - all be forgeries? What about the state of decomposition of the bodies? Did it appear to agree with the German story of when they must have been buried? After all, I’m no expert in body-decomposition. What about the temperature, moisture, soil bacteria? What about the German statements that Polish families had been trying to locate their relatives, known to have been imprisoned, when Russia occupied part of Poland? Was it true that these Polish relatives ceased to get answers from their imprisoned relatives - that a cloak of mystery descended all at once? Where is PROOF of who killed these men? Who saw it done?
And so on, and so on - I tried every way I knew how to avoid believing that Russia had done it. I tried every way to convince myself that the Germans had done it. I wanted to believe that the Germans had done it.
Since the graves were already opened, when we were there, it was not possible to see for ourselves what sort of growth had existed on top of the graves, in order to see how long the graves had existed. And, if we had been present, how could we know that the Germans hadn’t cleverly transplanted older bushes to give the appearance of age to the graves?
So, you see that we pursued every line of attack to weaken the German story and avoid the conclusion that the Russians had done the killing. It was only with great reluctance that I decided finally that it must be true, that for once the Germans weren’t lying, that the facts were as claimed by the Germans. I have thought about this a lot in the past seven years, and freely admit that there never was presented to me any single piece of evidence that could be taken as an absolute proof. But the sum of circumstantial evidence, impressions formed at the time of looking at the graves, what I saw in peoples faces - all forces the conclusion that Russia did it.
The uniforms on the bodies were obviously of the best material and tailor-made. The footwear appeared to be of the best and included many pairs that were obviously made to order. The uniforms and footwear all were obviously well-fitted. This convinced me that the bodies were truly those of Polish officers. The degree of wear on the clothing and particularly the wear on the shoes led me to believe that these officers had been dead a long time, otherwise the shoes and clothing would show much more wear. This was the point that was not called to our attention by the Germans. It is one of the strongest arguments by which to fix the date of the killing."
(signed) John H. Van Vliet Jr.
Lt.-Col., 23 Infantry Regiment
Призывы левых вызывали большое сомнение у специалистов историко-просветительского общества “Мемориал”, активно участвовавших в расследовании трагедии в начале 90-х. Так они заметили г-ну Илюхину, что количество польских военнопленных в данных, которыми он оперирует явно занижено. Кроме того, весьма шатким оказывается такой аргумент как наличие немецких пуль в телах расстрелянных польских военных. Дело в том, что для массовых расстрелов в НКВД использовалось немецкое оружие уже даже в 1937 году, поскольку отечественное просто было не приспособлено для большого объема работы".
Кроме того, имеются показания бывшего начальника управления НКВД по Калининской области о том, что в лагеря польских военнопленных перед акциями уничтожения специально завозились большие партии немецкого стрелкового оружия, и одного из полевых хирургов, утверждавшего, что при эксгумации трупов, им было приказано заменить пули советского производства на немецкие.
Alta-Vista translation:
The calls of leftists caused large doubt in the specialists of historico- enlightenment society the “memorial”, of those actively participated in the investigation of tragedy in the beginning of the 90th so they they noted Mr. ilyukhina that a quantity of Polish prisoners of war in the data, with whom it operates clearly understated. Furthermore, very unsteady proves to be this argument as the presence of German bullets in the bodies of the shot Polish servicemen. The fact is that for the mass shootings in THE NKVD was used the German weapon already even in 1937, since domestic simply was not fitted out for the large volume of work ". Furthermore, are statements of the former chief for administration THE NKVD for Kalinin district about the fact that in the camp of the Polish prisoners of war before the actions of destruction specially were left the large parties of German small arms, and one of the field surgeons, which asserted that with the exhumation of corpses, with them it was ordered replace the bullets of Soviet production by the German.
>> Katyn Forest is a wooded area near Gneiezdovo village, a short distance from Smolensk in Russia >>
A VERY short distance from Smloensk. Suburban area having dense population. As a matter of fact, the graves are within the former territory of the Smolensk NKVD corporative vacation bordering house. Can anybody imagine the firing squad at work in the park where their wives and children smelling flowers?
>>And when I hear from Russians like you about “german weapons”, and “special commision”… it is a joke. >>
In any police fiction book the detective first off all finds out the weapon of a murderer. In Katyn the victims were killed by german bullets. It is not a joke, every witness, first of them is Mackevich, says it.
>> It was Soviet Union which decided to invade Poland , it was Red Army which took these people as POWs. And it was legal soviet government which decided to liquidate them. >>
Joke? Germans did nothing?
And you missed one interesting thing - WHY soviet government decided to liquidate them? Dr.Goebbels, who had invented the version you’re now support, answered this question. In his point of view, not only soviet government decided to liquidate POWs, but soviet jews, and because the soviet government was jews, and no other reason needed.
Later the main Goebbels’s proof was forgotten, and his tale lost half of its charm. But the question appeared instead - if the jews are out of consideration, why the soviet government decided to liquidate them?
>> Only part of the archives was declassified. >>
You are quite right. The most important archives, the archives of Smolensk NKVD, was taken by germans in 1941, and later by americans in 1945. Ask in Pentagon, if you want to know the truth. Still classified, even in the time of Cold War americans kept it closed.
>> First Gorbachev, than Yeltsin provided some documents from archives of CPSU. These were major proofs that Stalins order to liquidate was signed also by members of the Politburo. >>
Yury Mukhin in “Katynskiy detectiv” presents these “some documents”. Really some. You must look at them. The “documents” are nothing but fake.
>> Germans collected massive amount of documents digged up and found on corpses. They were personal identification papers, dog tags, wallets etc. >>
Nobody knows what the germans collected, we know only what they had showed. They showed only papers dated 1940.
And what does it prove, by the way? If I now have not in my pocket any paper dated 2006, does it mean I was shot a year before?
>> what sort of growth had existed on top of the graves >>
John H. Van Vliet Jr. sure can distinguish 3-year bushes from 2-year bushes?
>> Polish relatives ceased to get answers from their imprisoned relatives >>
In Soviet law existed such measure for prisoners as “correspondence forbidden”.
>> The degree of wear on the clothing and particularly the wear on the shoes led me to believe that these officers had been dead a long time … It is one of the strongest arguments >>
Too hard to me. “The degree of wear on the clothing…”? Really "one of the strongest arguments?
>> Explanation that bolshevics killed 20 million of Russians is not really rational. >>
Explanation is not only rational, it isn’t an explanation at all. There are enough reports published, the total number of Stalin’s victims is estimated 700 000 - 900 000. Let us not speak about millions.
Zdrager,
Fragment of John H. Van Vliet Jr testimony and comment in Russian from Ukrainian paper I took from this site:
Apparently the best Russian source…
It looks like, no matter what will be written, some of “opponents” like you always will find something to disapprove facts.
But doesn’t matter what will be told on the Russian side, I don’t think you will find in Poland even one person which would believe that Katyn was German responsibility.
Your arguments are in essence similar to holocaust revisionists.
They will deny truth because their real aim is to restore National Socialism as feasible political option.
Your aim is to restore credibility of communism.
At least it appears like that.
The only other option is that denials and justification of Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact and it’s outcome, serve as distraction from Suvorov/Rezun path.
Proof that USSR was a real aggressor, almost ready to go, would destroy any credibility communism still attain as otherways dead idea.
Lancer44
I suggest that this thread should be closed. It is going nowhere - dead trap.
Dani, please close if other participants agree.
Lancer44
You started this topic so your OK is enough for me.
If anyone have a request for reopening please PM me or to Gen. Sandworm.
Hi everybody
Lancer44 have asked “What do you think about it dear Russian friends?” and invited to speak about the Katyn murder.
Katyn forest is a wooded area near Smolensk in Russia where in 1941 the germans shot and buried over 4000 polish service personnel that had been taken prisoners two years before.
But before I could answer all Lancer44’s questions,
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3549&page=3
the thread was closed. Surprise.
Still the problem exists.
As Lancer44 stated, “I don’t think you will find in Poland even one person which would believe that Katyn was German responsibility”. It means that very much people are still deceived by Goebbels’s dirty myth.
Anybody who want to know more facts (I mean FACTS, not opinions and legends) will soon discover that all facts show the german responsibility.
Maybe the reason is that most of truth about the Katyn is published in russian, and so is inaccessible to the people in other countries.
Please, ask your questions, I’ll try to made things more clear for you.
And can we live without any political clichés?
http://katyn.codis.ru/kdocs1.htm#beria
-
- Вопрос НКВД СССР.
I. Предложить НКВД СССР:
-
Дела о находящихся в лагерях для военнопленных 14.700 человек бывших польских офицеров, чиновников, помещиков, полицейских, разведчиков, жандармов, осадников и тюремщиков,
-
а также дела об арестованных и находящихся в тюрьмах западных областей Украины и Белоруссии в количестве 11.000 человек членов различных к-р шпионских и диверсионных организаций, бывших помещиков, фабрикантов, бывших польских офицеров, чиновников и перебежчиков - рассмотреть в особом порядке, с применением к ним высшей меры наказания - расстрела.
II. Рассмотрение дел провести без вызова арестованных и без пред"явления обвинения, постановления об окончании следствия и обвинительного заключения - в следующем порядке:
а) на лиц, находящихся в лагерях военно-пленных - по справкам, представляемым Управлением по делам военнопленных НКВД СССР,
б) на лиц, арестованных - по справкам из дел, представляемых НКВД УССР и НКВД БССР.
III. Рассмотрение дел и вынесение решения возложить на тройку, в составе т.т. Меркулова, Кобулова и Баштакова (начальник 1-го спецотдела НКВД СССР).
Выписка послана:
тов. Берия.
Hi Lancer44
“…Третий документ - “выписка протокола Политбюро” - напечатана на бланке предыдущего десятилетия. Это невозможно. Немыслимо, чтобы завхоз допустил, а технические работники Политбюро пользовались третий месяц, 13 заседаний Политбюро, бланками, на которых они должны делать исправления рукой (что само по себе немыслимо на документах такого уровня), и, кроме этого, бланками, на которых легко сделать ошибку. На этом бланке есть место для собственного имени, оно полузаполнено: “Выписка из протокола N 13 заседания Политбюро ЦК от…193… г.”. То есть, номера и даты, там где им полагается, нет, но выше отпечатано: N П13/144 от 5 марта 1930 г.” Вы видите, как легко ошибиться, - здесь либо фальсификатор, либо наборщик типографии, вместо 1940 года впечатали 1930.
…По внешним, чисто канцелярским признакам, все три документа - безусловная подделка.
…Надо думать, что сам протокол Политбюро и повестку дня этого заседания фальсификаторы уничтожили, руководствуясь замечательным принципом доказательств бригады Геббельса - если чего-то нет, то, значит, польских офицеров убили Сталин и НКВД.
…И теперь о “тройке”. Эта мысль фальсификатора настолько дурацкая, что его “тройку” можно назвать “тройкой с бубенцами” от его дурацкого колпака.
Прежде всего потому, что эта “тройка с бубенцами” состоит из конкретных персон…
…Никогда, даже в тяжелые минуты, в СССР законная форма проведения суда над людьми не нарушалась. Не было в этом необходимости. К примеру. В 1941 году возникла угроза, что немцы захватят в орловской тюрьме лидеров партии эсэров. Эсэры в тюрьме были расстреляны. Но не по приказу Сталина или Политбюро. По приговору Верховного Суда СССР, который для этой цели быстро собрался, вернул дело на новое рассмотрение, рассмотрел и вынес новый приговор. А любая чрезвычайная тройка, скажем, Орловской области, могла сделать это еще быстрее.
…При наличии в СССР чрезвычайных троек в областях и республиках можно было, в абсолютно законном порядке, тайно расстрелять кого угодно и в любом количестве. Эта “тройка с бубенцами” в составе Кабулова, Меркулова и примкнувшего к ним майора Баштакова - шедевр кретинизма бригады Геббельса."
http://lib.ru/MUHIN_YU/katyn.txt
Well, Lancer44, we can show each other many other papers. Still papers are not more than papers, and, as Voltaire said, “on peut tout ecrire”.
I propose to look at real things.
For example, I can repeat myself from the closed thread
>> Katyn Forest is a wooded area near Gneiezdovo village, a short distance from Smolensk in Russia >>
A VERY short distance from Smloensk. Suburban area having dense population. As a matter of fact, the graves are within the former territory of the Smolensk NKVD corporative vacation bordering house. Can anybody imagine the firing squad at work in the park where their wives and children smelling flowers?
>>And when I hear from Russians like you about “german weapons”, and “special commision”… it is a joke. >>
In any police fiction book the detective first off all finds out the weapon of a murderer. In Katyn the victims were killed by german bullets. It is not a joke, every witness, first of them is Mackevich, says it.
>> It was Soviet Union which decided to invade Poland , it was Red Army which took these people as POWs. And it was legal soviet government which decided to liquidate them. >>
Joke? Germans did nothing?
And you missed one interesting thing - WHY soviet government decided to liquidate them? Dr.Goebbels, who had invented the version you’re now support, answered this question. In his point of view, not only soviet government decided to liquidate POWs, but soviet jews, and because the soviet government was jews, and no other reason needed.
Later the main Goebbels’s proof was forgotten, and his tale lost half of its charm. But the question appeared instead - if the jews are out of consideration, why the soviet government decided to liquidate them?
>> Only part of the archives was declassified. >>
You are quite right. The most important archives, the archives of Smolensk NKVD, was taken by germans in 1941, and later by americans in 1945. Ask in Pentagon, if you want to know the truth. Still classified, even in the time of Cold War americans kept it closed.
>> First Gorbachev, than Yeltsin provided some documents from archives of CPSU. These were major proofs that Stalins order to liquidate was signed also by members of the Politburo. >>
Yury Mukhin in “Katynskiy detectiv” presents these “some documents”. Really some. You must look at them. The “documents” are nothing but fake.
>> Germans collected massive amount of documents digged up and found on corpses. They were personal identification papers, dog tags, wallets etc. >>
Nobody knows what the germans collected, we know only what they had showed. They showed only papers dated 1940.
And what does it prove, by the way? If I now have not in my pocket any paper dated 2006, does it mean I was shot a year before?
>> what sort of growth had existed on top of the graves >>
John H. Van Vliet Jr. sure can distinguish 3-year bushes from 2-year bushes?
>> Polish relatives ceased to get answers from their imprisoned relatives >>
In Soviet law existed such measure for prisoners as “correspondence forbidden”.
>> The degree of wear on the clothing and particularly the wear on the shoes led me to believe that these officers had been dead a long time … It is one of the strongest arguments >>
Too hard to me. “The degree of wear on the clothing…”? Really "one of the strongest arguments?
>> Explanation that bolshevics killed 20 million of Russians is not really rational. >>
Explanation is not only rational, it isn’t an explanation at all. There are enough reports published, the total number of Stalin’s victims is estimated 700 000 - 900 000. Let us not speak about millions.
Instead of opening a new thread, if you have acted like I suggested here:http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84859&postcount=30 it would be great.
Threads merged.
Zdrager,
In Miednoje near Twer NKVD buried 6314 bodies of Polish officers, mainly policemans. They been shot individually in NKVD headquarter Nr 5 Soviecka Street.
Burial site is within grounds of NKVD “recreational facility”.
THIS TERRITORY WAS NEVER UNDER GERMAN OCCUPATION.
Exhumations in Miednoje were conducted between 15 to 31 of August 1991.
One large common grave with 240 bodies was discovered.
Navy blue Polish police uniforms were well preserved.
Skulls had holes similar to reported in Katyn graves.
20 bullets were located. Only two from Nagant revolver, the rest 7.65mm German origin.
More mass graves were discovered in Miednoje area by Russian MVD teams in 1994 and 1995. Full exhumations were conducted before building of cemetery begin.
[quote="http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/soviet_crimes/soviet_crimes_eng.html
"]
After World War II, the International Military Tribunal was established in Nuremberg to try the leaders of Nazi Germany for crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. Crimes against peace involved initiating a war of aggression. War crimes involved: murder, ill-treatment, or deportation either of civilians or prisoners of war. Crimes against humanity involved: murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts committed against any civilians before or during war, and also persecution on political, racial or religious grounds. These acts, the charter of the Tribunal stated, were crimes “whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated”. The Nazis were also guilty of the ultimate crime - the crime of genocide. After a thorough investigation, most of the defendants were convicted by the Tribunal of one or more of these horrific crimes and duly punished.
In a bizarre twist of fate, the Soviets, who were also guilty of all these crimes and therefore should have been in the dock alongside the Nazis, sat in righteous judgement upon them.
In regard to Poland alone, the list of Soviet crimes against peace, war crimes and crimes against humanity during World War II is very long indeed. It includes:
- the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and its secret Protocol for the partition of Poland
- the invasion and occupation in September 1939 of Eastern Poland, an area containing eight out of sixteen Poland's prewar provinces and representing 52 percent of Polish soil with over 13 million people
- the consequent breaking of two bilateral treaties with Poland, namely - the 1921 Treaty of Riga and the 1932 Polish-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, renewed in 1934 for an additional ten years; moreover, as a member (since 1934) of the League of Nations, the Soviet Union violated at least three multilateral pacts as well
- the gratuitous handing over of Wilno and the Wilno region to Lithuania in exchange for allowing the Soviets to have military bases in that country
- the rigged plebiscites on the basis of which the occupied Polish territories were incorporated into the Belorussian SSR and the Ukrainian SSR
- the wholesale looting of Polish raw materials, agricultural produce and both movable and immovable goods to Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union
- the wrecking of the Polish economy and the banking system
- the subversion of the Polish educational system, the arts, and the free press
- the trampling underfoot of human rights, including the freedoms of free speech, assembly and worship
- the confiscation of all Polish private and state landed property
- exorbitant taxation without representation
- the four massive and other, less-known smaller deportations of entire Polish families to the Gulag
- the massive arrests of so-called counterrevolutionaries and anti-Soviet elements
- the internment of Polish POWs in forced-labour camps in occupied Eastern Poland and the USSR
- the 1940 cold-blooded execution and burial in mass graves in Katyn, Mednoye and Kharkov of 21 857 Polish prisoners (this exact number of those murdered comes from a 1959 KGB memorandum from Aleksandr Shelepin to Nikita Khruschev and represents the total number of executions during the April-May 1940 action, including 7300 persons murdered in Belorussia and Ukraine). The relatives of the victims in the Soviet-occupied part of Poland were subjected to one of the most severe repressions - deportation to the Gulag. In postwar Poland, they were not allowed to speak of the manner in which their loved ones died, and had to mourn them in complete silence
- the recently-discovered graves filled with Polish corpses near Tavda and Tomsk, east of the Ural Mountains
- the forced death marches to the interior of the Soviet Union following the June 1941 German invasion
- the massive, cold-blooded executions of thousands of prisoners in occupied Eastern Poland in the first days of that invasion
- the establishment of a communist party in Nazi-occupied Poland in early 1942 with orders to destabilize the Polish Home Army by denouncing its members to the Gestapo
- the Moscow 1943 order to combat the Polish underground with "every possible means"
- the establishment in 1943 of the Moscow-based Union of Polish Patriots to take over the Polish government after the war
- the deliberate withholding of material and military assistance to the defenders of Warsaw during the 1944 uprising
- Stalin's 1944 order to liquidate the members of all Polish underground forces, which resulted in the execution of thousands of Polish soldiers and the arrest and deportation of tens of thousands to the interior of the Soviet Union
- the luring of sixteen Polish leaders to Moscow in March 1945 and their show trial
These, and similar Soviet actions cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of Polish citizens throughout the war and caused indescribable pain and sufferings to millions more. Such a terrible physical and psychological reign of terror has seldom been witnessed in the annals of human history. Its main objective, no doubt, was nothing less than the complete destruction of the sociocultural life of the twenty year old Second Republic of Poland. Yet as of today, sixty years after the end of World War II, not a single Russian official or researcher that I can name, has had the courage to own up to the fact that during World War II the Soviet Union was no better than Nazi Germany; that it was in large measure responsible for the outbreak of World War II; and that its sinister ideology continued to plague the world, and Poland in particular, for years after that war was over.
[/quote]
End of part one…
And that’s enough for me in that subject…
>> In Miednoje near Twer NKVD buried 6314 bodies of Polish officers, mainly policemans. They been shot individually in NKVD headquarter Nr 5 Soviecka Street. >>
No comments. You took it from those fake papers. Nothing confirms them.
>> Burial site is within grounds of NKVD “recreational facility”. >>
Don’t forget, in 1941 the front line was very close to Mednoe, and in the years of war nearly all “recreational facilities” were turned to hospitals. This NKVD recreational facility was not an exception, and bodies with bullet holes in the cemetery near military hospital can not astonish anybody. Just soldiers dead of wounds, most of them.
Some of bodies - executed criminals.
>> THIS TERRITORY WAS NEVER UNDER GERMAN OCCUPATION >>
Agreed.
>> Exhumations in Miednoje were conducted between 15 to 31 of August 1991 >>
Without any legal procedure, without records and photo images of collected evidences. Reports were published several years later, and now it seems impossible to decide what was really found and what was added to lists of findings afterwards.
>> One large common grave with 240 bodies was discovered. >>
240 = 6314?
>> Navy blue Polish police uniforms were well preserved >>
Maybe something preserved, but not well. This cemetery is in wet place, and the within graves was some liquid mud.
>> Skulls had holes similar to reported in Katyn graves >>
No. Distinctly different method of killing condemned criminals.
>> 20 bullets were located. Only two from Nagant revolver, the rest 7.65mm German origin. >>
20 bullets for 240 bodies? How many of them are executed criminals with bullets in sculls, and how many of them dead soldiers after hospital surgery?
By the way, “three kinds of ammunition used for executions - small caliber pistols, rifles and Nagant revolver (З. Пешковский. “…И увидел ямы смерти” Харьков-Медное-Катынь. Перевод С. Родевича. Польша, Русское издательство “Катажина Флиэгер”, 1995, с. 40.) Not a word about any german bullet.
Still I can not argue that in bodies of dead soldiers any german bullets can be found.
>> More mass graves were discovered in Miednoje area by Russian MVD teams in 1994 and 1995. Full exhumations were conducted before building of cemetery begin. >>
Giving no proofs for the legend about 6000 executed poles.
Hi Kovalski
Too many subjects at once 
In this thread I would like to talk about the germans killing of 4000-5000 poles in Katyn. Maybe about the cemetery in Mednoe as well because it is included in the Goebbels’s myth of russians’ responsibility.
Sorry, I don’t think I can answer all your questions right now. Maybe some time later. OK?