Dani, sorry.
Zdrager,
Exhumations were conducted under direct supervision of Russian Federation Military Prosecutors.
Your casual explanations copied from Muhins books are wrong.
Any discussion with you is pointless.
There are some people in the world which believe that world is flat like a pizza and sits on the backs of four elephants which are standing on the back of a big turtle.
Yes they can believe in such nonsence but no one is taking them seriously.
Muhins beliefs about humanity of soviet regime are from the same cathegory.
Either insane or certifiable.
Below some photos from exhumations in Miednoje. As you see,work was done by Russian soldiers. Judging just by amount of items of polish origin digged up with human remains, your “hospital” theory is completely false.
Miednoje was never occupied by Germans.
Within boundaries of NKVD “Recreational facility” Russian teams discovered more graves of Russian civilians murdered between 1917 and 1941.
Exact figures are not known but they estimated many more victims than Poles.
I don’t know how old you are Zdrager. I can understand that it is not really nice to be told that soviet regime was similar like nazi murderous monster.
I also can understand that in Russia any de-communisation or verification of people is impossible. Many quiet pensioners playing chess or reading books sitting on park benches are communist criminals.
Same in Poland. It is hard to detect them and even harder to prosecute.
Most of perpetrators are already dead, but do not even try to tell people in Poland that Germans are responsible or no one killed more than 20,000 Polish officers, policemans and border guards.
URL=http://imageshack.us]
Zdrager,
Excavations in Miednoje brought vast amount of material which is properly documented. Photographic evidence is huge. In all exhumations experts from both Polish and Russian side were present.
Your tactic of denying facts is similar to used by all Holocaust deniers.
Once more Zdrager,
Miednoje was never occupied by Germans. How you can explain what anyone can see on these photos?
Official page of Polish Internal Affairs Ministry from which I took photographs is here:
http://www.mswia.gov.pl/index_wai.php?dzial=124&id=955&poz=2
During excavations in 1995 Polish experts team headed by Colonel Prof. Dr Bronislaw Mlodziejowski had very close and personal contacts with Russian policemans, soldiers and Twer citizens. These contacts are continued till today. Just last year children from Twer had holidays in Poland.
Read below:
"Children from Twer and Miednoje on vacation in Poland
Group of children from the Russian area of Twer and Miednoje arrived today to the holiday centre in Jastrzębia Góra on the invitation of the Ministry of the Interior and Administration, the General Police Headquarters and the Police Family 39 Association.
Children will stay in Poland for about two weeks during which they will be familiarised with Polish history and culture. They will be also integrated with Polish youth. Organisers prepared many attractions for the children who are visiting our country. The events include: trip on the Baltic Sea on the Border Guard’s ship and many excursions.
29 July 2005"
http://www.mswia.gov.pl/index_eng_wai.php
Something like that makes me think positively about future relations between Poland and Russia.
Unfortunately your actions and opinions, Zdrager and crap which Mr Muhin is peddling selling his books are convincing me that in immediate future nothing good may happen.
And I want to repeat once more:
MIEDNOJE WAS NEVER UNDER GERMAN CCUPATION…
Hi Lancer 44
>> MIEDNOJE WAS NEVER UNDER GERMAN CCUPATION >>
? Yes. Already agreed. Please, look above.
So, if you want to talk about Mednoe now, I think we must to sum up the Katyn subject.
-
Nation A is at war against nation B. Somewhere within the theatre of operations one finds several thousand bodies of the nation A soldiers killed by the nation B bullets. Does anybody need to look other killers than the nation B soldiers?
As for me, it is a 95% proof of the nation B responsibility.
The poles in Katyn were killed by german bullets.
Agree? -
The site of the Katyn graves is the least possible place of all Smolensk suburbs for the NKVD to carry out executions.
Agree? -
Such method of execution was never used in the USSR. But was very popular in the nazi Germany and occupied countries. I think you can yourself remember such mass graves, around Osvencim, for example.
Agree? -
If any doubts still remain, let us look who had invented the myth of russians responsibility. Dr.Goebbels, yes?
And what proofs did he present?
Nothing.
The only so-called proof was the papers (letters, notebooks etc.) found on bodies that germans had shown. I remind you, we don’t know what the germans really had found, we only know what they had shown. They had shown the papers dated of 1940 and earlier. That was all “proof”.
As I asked before, what does it prove? If I now have not in my pocket any paper dated 2006, does it mean I was shot a year before?
It is not a proof at all.
Agree? -
Why Goebbels didn’t need any proofs? Why the germans didn’t even add several russian bullets in the graves? Because were was a war. The war-time brainwashing doesn’t need any proofs. Friends will pretend to believe anyway, enemies will not be bothered by any proofs.
Agree? -
Do you think Goebbels blamed russians? No. He blamed jews. I don’t think you will ask why. Everyone knows the Germany policy against the jews. Just in the days when the Katyn hoax was started, the Warsaw ghetto was liquidated. The action needed some justification, so Goebbels initiated the legend about evil jews who killed innocent poles.
Agree? -
Forty five years later some suspicious guys in the Kremlin for some suspicious reasons decided to support Goebbels and produced some suspicious “documents”, three or five in number. These “documents” are surely fakes, it’s clear for anyone who want to read them.
By the way, why do you believe these Kremlin guys? They are always lying, you know.
Agree?
About the military cemetery in Mednoe I will write tomorrow. Your mistakes are quite evident and I can easily help you, but right now I want to watch football, sorry 
And can we live without any political clichés?
Привет, Zdrager.
Так ты считаешь что Ю. Мухин прав?
Я думаю, что во-многом - да. Хотя новая польская ( “старая геббельсовская”) версия на первый взгдяд убедительна, но на поверку столько косяков вылазит.
Мне кажется , это как полеты американцев на Луну. Вроде и фото есть и “живые свидетели” но при анализе появляется миллион конкретных вопросов ,на которые нет ответов.
А ты не участвуешь случайно на форуме http://katyn.ru/forums
Интересные вылазят мнения.
Gentelmen,
it would be nice to speak english on this forum. Not everybody is speaking russian, as not everybody is speaking german, polish, spanish etc. Thank you
IN MEDNOE were found the fragments of supposedly 293 bodies. Only part of them, they were Polish prisoners of war.
Lancer, I gave to you the link (http://katyn.ru) so that you it could see that in Russia there are different opinions it goes active dialogue. And each side has ITS VALID PROOFS. But you, as is evident, is capable to see only one side of truth. I can understand you. But when you attempt to give out the disputed facts as absolute truth, this he directs at the suspicion about your adequacy. Justification for the type “so I think not only , but also all poles” irresponsibly. Say to me if you please, why the NKVD it did use the German weapon (on your version) for the murder of polish prisoners of war?it can be NKVD did know that into 1943 in Katyni they will be Germans and they will compulsorily find burials? These are absurdity.Lancher. Why they shot Poles not far from Smolensk. So that then to the Germans would be more easily find “witnesses who it heard shots”. Why Germans found the burials of Poles accurately in 1943 when situation on the fronts it began to be turned against Germany. Indeed on the official version Germans questioned several “witnesses” which they saw or they heard as THE NKVD it kills Poles into 1940. Surely only these “witnesses unexpectedly recalled” in two years of German occupation.
In your version there are too much “why”
I thing,If the NKVD it wanted to secretly physically destroy Poles, they would send them into Siberia and there them all they shot by usual Soviet Nagant revolvers without any noise.
http://www.conservativeclassics.com/books/Katynbk/BK07.PDF
Edited to add: Found on http://katyn.ru/forums
Hi Kovalski. Fine person. What good source you found from the military crimes. Very fundamental and the main thing honest. You will not prompt, on what page it is there written about 500 000 Japanese - the inhabitants of Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which they burnt alive in 1945. I wanted to ask about this Dani, but I see that in you there are more objective sources. Can there even they do write about the bombing of German city of Dresden 13-14 February 1945?
You’re missing the point, Chevan. The crimes we are talking about are crimes commited by Soviets. If you want to discuss the subject of massive bombing of japanese or german cities, please start a new threads somewhere else. I think that a lot of members would discuss it with you.
Hi Zdrager,
I remember that you agreed. I just wanted to repeat it so the other members properly understood that Mednoye is soviet responsibility without any doubt.
Poles were classified as POWs taken by RKKA (Red Army). Even now in many publications such term is used. According to international law act of aggression is de facto war.
So nation B is USSR.
I agree that NKVD killed Polish POWs using German weapons and ammunition. In 1990 and 1991 Russian Military Prosecutor questioned three pensioners, ex NKVD officers: P. Supronienko, D. Tokariev and M.Syromatnikov.
Dimitrij Tokariev confirmed that before “action” NKVD received pistols Walther from Moscow. Most probably Walthers PPK and
P-8. Chairman GECO - German export interrogated in Nuremberg confirmed that USSR imported large quantites od pistols and ammunition between 1930 and 1939.
I don’t agree…
A)
Kuropaty
“This year (1988), from July 6 through 15, the investigative agencies of the Procurator’s Office of the BSSR carried out a selective exhumation of the graves at Kurapaty. The criminological investigation enquiry headed by Counsellor of Justice J.J.Broliss, a special investigator. A number of specialists (criminologists, medical experts, archaeologists, etc.) were officially invited to participate in the investigation. The archaeological excavations and the examination of the buried remains were carried out by a group of archaeologists from the Institute of History of the Academy of Sciences of the BSSR (Z.S.Pazniak, M.M.Kryvalcevic, A.V.Iou). The scientific report on the archaeological investigations was reviewed, analysed, and approved by the Department of Archaeology (of that Institute) and submitted to the Procurator.”
If you know Minsk you can agree that Kuropaty are also suspiciously close to suburbs and dwellings of ordinary people.
B)
"The first mass grave of Ukrainians in Vinnitsa was discovered by the Germans shortly after they occupied the town in 1941: 96 corpses, mostly of Ukrainian political prisoners and religious dissidents, were found in the courtyard of the civilian prison, victims of the general policy of liquidating prisoners when it became impossible to evacuate them prior to the arrival of German troops. The grave was about 20 meters long and 6 meters wide. The exhumations took place in the presence of a military judge named Schwarz, who collected the relevant evidence and had photographs taken for the documentation of the War Crimes Bureau.
In another courtyard of the same prison a second mass grave was found but those bodies were not exhumed. It was not until two years later, on 25 May 1943, that as a result of the persistent rumors among the Ukrainian civilian population, digging was begun in other suspected areas of town and more graves discovered. In all, three major graveyards were found: the pear-orchard with 38 mass graves, the old cemetery with 40 mass graves, and the People’s Park with 35 mass graves. Only some of the bodies were exhumed; weather conditions interrupted the digging, and it was never resumed because the Soviet Army reoccupied the area. By then, however, 9,439 corpses had already been counted.
Meanwhile, as in Katyn, the Germans had first sent in their own experts in forensic medicine, then invited foreign experts. The international medical commission that arrived in Vinnitsa in July of 1943 (some three months after the Katyn investigations) was composed of eleven doctors from Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Finland, France, Hungary, Italy, the Netherlands, Rumania, Slovakia, and Sweden. From 13 to 15 July 1943 they carried out 11 full autopsies and 24 simple post-mortem examinations. The commission’s expert opinion, signed on 15 July, reads in part: "All the corpses examined had bullet wounds in the back of the head or in the neck … with the exception of the lower neck shots, the cause of death was the head injury. From the information obtained from relatives and eyewitnesses, and from the documents found on the corpses as well as the medical examination of the decomposition of the bodies as described in the protocol… it may be concluded that the killings took place in the year 1938.
The commissions’s conclusions confirmed the results of the medico-legal investigations already carried out by a team of German and Ukrainian doctors under a Dr. Schrader - director of the German Association for Forensic Medicine and Criminology. Schrader’s provisional report of 16 June 1943 described the exhumation of 509 corpses, of which 171 had been subjected to post-mortem examination."
People’s Park in Vinnitsa is obviously the worst possible place to hide victims of mass murder, however, 35 mass graves were discovered. What is obvious is not always so obvious after closer examination.
Mass graves in Mednoye also wer within boundaries of NKVD “recreational facility”.
Looks like NKVD needed a lot of space for recreation…
I can add that from logical point of view NKVD choose the right places. Nobody would dare to dig in the cemetery and public park.
If you want to experiment get a spade go to the park and start digging. Cops will be with you in 10 minutes.
Strongly disagree…
Previous point partly already answered question of method of execution. It was very popular in USSR.
I don’t want to be sarcastic but judging by number of victims between 1917 to 1953, shooting at the back of the head was sort of national sport conducted by NKVD.
Regarding Oswiecim or Auschwitz-Birkenau: I lived 28 years 60 kilometers from the main camp. I visited it twice.
And I never heard about mass graves around. Not with bodies. With ashes and tiny bone fragments, yes.
During my first visit to Auschwitz in late october 1969 I had been lucky, it was very cold, not many tourists and my, (and my mum) guide was lady ex-prisoner of Auschwitz. She was working for State Museum and lived in the camp area in one of the buildings converted to apartment block. She extended tour and I had even opportunity to see mass grave with ashes and touch small fragments of the bones. She told about shooting political prisoners from Block 11. Only couple of sadist SS performed executions.
They used .22 or 5.56mm sport carbine. Relatively very small number of prisoners died this way in comparison to number of those which were gassed, beaten to death or died of hunger.
And just to remind you. Himmler and Beria had very close co-operation after august 1939 and before. Gestapo learned a lot from NKVD. Afer Rapallo soviet - German co-operation was very broad. Tankers school, pilots training, camps organisation. Who knows what more…
I don’t agree because what you wrote is a nonsense. If Germans would like to fabricate the case, show selectively documents from before April 1940, than they would also hide spent cases and bullets of German origin. Easily. They could have and plant millions of soviet manufactured ammo, shells and bullets. Somewhat they missed that important “proof”?
Stop copying Mr. Muhin blubber and thing logically.
In this case I agree. Goebbels cynically used Katyn discovery as propaganda tool. Gebbels propagandist created many fictional “facts” around Katyn Forest affair. Germans were so convinced that bodies in Katyn are job of NKVD that they did not even bothered with conducting proper investigation. They knew who is responsible. They main effort was identification of victims and so called “Katyn Lists”. Publishing them in occupied Poland they tried to convince Polish society to actively participate in “defence against bolshevism”. They attempts failed - they did not managed to form Polish Waffen SS Legions.
(They had enough trouble with Russian ROA and RONA anyway…)
Again I can agree in this case. Nazis blamed Jews for everything. For them every commisar in RKKA was a Jew, every enkavudist- Jew. Nothing special. And this have nothing to do with the main question - Who was a perpetrator?
Who planned and executed mass murder in Katyn?
The fact is that in NKVD was quite high percentage of Jews. Common opinion was that they were the most trusted because nazis treatened to kill them.
The same was in Polish UB in 1944 when NKVD created this organisation and up to 1968 when Gomulka started antisemitic campaign.
I agree that timing of Warsaw Ghetto liquidation overlap Katyn revelations spread by Goebbels propagandist.
It was very convenient for nazis.
On the other hand during occupation German press published in Polish every day mentioned Jews bolsheviks next to Jewish plutocracy in USA and BB. Jews were universal menace for nazis.
Hahahahha, good question Zdrager. As a Pole I should not believe Kremlin!
I don’t know if these documents are fakes. Let’s say they are. Polish side get only copies.
I work in publishing and printing and I know that any document can be falsified - couple of hours - no problem.
In every human or government action is a motive and will to achieve something. So what they wanted to achieve?
First Gorbachev, than Yeltsin? And what about first soviet, than Russian Military Prosecutors?
Remember official Russian stand is that Katyn, Mednoye and Kharkov was NKVD job.
They do not deny it. They only saying that NKVD murder of Polish citizens was not crime against humanity but normal criminal act.
Polish government is protesting loudly. In my opinion Russian government had no choice - precedent would open wave of international court litigations from all directions and many countries. No country would be able to pay such enormous sums. Admitting that Katyn was crime against humanity would enable Baltic States, Germany, Japan, Finland and few more european countries to sue Russia for soviet deeds.
I understand Russian position.
It is the only way to live Zdrager. In my last point I proved it
Lancer44
I had to separate one long post into two, sorry.
More fun, i hoped you’ll say this. All these countries were occupied by germany or were germany’s allies. Great international commission.
You were already told that in that time germans badly needed to shift world’s attention from Warsaw ghetto.
Sneaksie, I can’t recall. Sweden was a Germany’s ally or was occupied by Germans? Stick to the facts.
Actually its hard to classify Sweden. The were declared neutral but played both sides of the game. Personally it is my belief that they were against Nazi Germany (due to the number of volenteers) but Sweden had no problem in appeasing Germany if they felt that resistence would plunge them into war. I know many already know this but i thought i would just remind.
One more thing I think you guys are making quite silly distinctions. In war people get killed …period. All sides are guilty. However where the difference lies in Nazi Germany is that they declared war on a race or what they called a race. Getting rid of people you dont like in very common in any country. However the systematic killings in Germany and that of Russia(not war related) where very extreme. But also at that time many people didnt really care so much what you did in your country. Do you think that if Germany had never went to war with anyone that the surrounding nations would have declared war on Germany because they were killing all their Jews? I think not. I dont remember anyone invading the USSR when Stalin killed most of his generals. Seriously doubt that had any effect on the German motivation to invade. Even today most turn their heads when a country goes genecidal. Rwanda for instance. Oh wow we sent in UN peacekeepers that did shit. Oddly enough, in some cases, the world seems to be okay when you kill your own people. Only difference today is that we consider them war crimes after the fact.