From one of the most up-to-date biographies of Stalin, “Stalin: the court of the red Tsar”, Simon Sebag Montefiore, 2003, ISBN 1 – 4000 – 7678 – 1
Meanwhile Stalin and his magnates debated the fate of the Polish officers, arrested or captured in September 1939 and held in three camps, one of which was close to Katyn forest. When Stalin was undecided about an issue, there was surprisingly frank discussion.Kulik, commander of the Polish front, proposed freeing all the poles. Voroshilov agreed but Mekhlis was adamant that there were Enemies among them. Stalin stopped the release but Kulik persisted. Stalin compromised. The poles were released – except for about 26,000 officers whose destiny was finally decided at the Politburo on 5 March 1940.
Beria’s son claimed that his father argued against a massacre, not out of philanthropy, but because the polls might be useful later. There is no evidence for this, except that Beria often took a practical rather than ideological approach. If so, Beria lost the argument. He dutifully reported that the 14,700 officers, landowners and policemen and 11,000 “counterrevolutionary” landowners were “spies and saboteurs… hardened… enemies of Soviet power” who should be "tried by… comrades Merkulov, Kobulov and Bashtakov. " Stalin scrawled his signature first and underlined it, followed by Voroshilov, Molotov, and Mikoyan. Kalinin and Kaganovich were canvassed by phone and voted “for.”
This massacre was a chunk of “black work” for the NKVD who were accustomed to the Vishka of a few victims at a time, but there was a man for the task: Blokhin travelled down to the Ostachkov camp where he and two other Checkists outfitted a hut with padded, soundproofed walls and decided on a Stakhanovite quota of 250 shootings a night. He brought a butcher’s leather apron and cap which he put on when he began one of the most prolific acts of mass murder by one individual, killing 7000 in precisely 28 nights, using a German Walther pistol to prevent future exposure. (footnote 1). The bodies were buried in various places – but the 4500 in the Kolzesk camp were interned in Katyn Forest (footnote 2).
Footnote 1: Katyn Forest:RFE/RL research report, volume 2, number 4, 22 January 1993, page 22. Beria was at first one of the “troika” in charge of the liquidation but Stalin crossed out his name and put in Kobulov, probably because Beria was busy enough. It is certainly not evidence that Beria was opposed to the massacres since “the Theoretician” and “the Samovar” were his closest associates. Overy, page 53. Stephan M., page 197. “Lesser terror”, page 57; Parrish, "Yezhov,"pp 83-5; “Serov,” “Slavic military studies”, volume 10 September 1997, page 110. Sergo B, pp 55, 320.
Footnote 2: in November 1941, the Polish ambassador Stanislaw Kot quizzed Stalin on the whereabouts of these men. Stalin made a show of setting up a phone call to Beria and change the subject. In December 1941, he told General Anders they had escaped to Mongolia. As we have seen, these sorts of sniggering acts of concern were part of his game with Beria. Mikoyan’s son step and wrote graciously that his father’s signature on this order was “the heaviest burden for our family.”
So, we know the date of the decision, who signed it in what order, who carried out the majority of the executions, with what pistol, and what he was wearing, and where. We also have copies of the original documents, which are certainly not fakes. Many of the secondary sources were either there at the time, or had seen the documents for themselves…
Sorry, and please remind me whose argument is more convincing?
The only idiots who still wish to believe it was the Russians are diehard Fascists
Like it? No?
The fact that the NKVD may have used German pistols is hardly surprising, given that they were the masters of intrigue and conspiracy and wanted to pin it on the Germans (duh),
Amazing. Russians wanted to pin the crime on Germans - they foresaw the war with Germany and occupation of Smolensk by germans.:lol: Your shrewdness is astonishing.
and that Soviet forces used all sorts of foreign weaponry in addition to their own.
What is really futile, it’s a use of wikipedia for historical references. One half-educated person edits wikipedia page, and 100 others refer to it.
We’ll discuss what is insulting and what is not if you dare to call someone ‘idiots’ another time. With examples if you wish.
“Stalin: the court of the red Tsar”, Simon Sebag Montefiore
Cool fiction. Fitting title too. Mr. Montefiore should consult a doctor concerning his fantasies starring masculine butchers with leather aprons though. It could be some trauma in his childhood, you know.
Those remarks demonstrates a huge lack of arguments and a huge appetite for insulting.
Sorry comrade, Zdrager admitted that he was wrong in his affirmation. It seems that you don’t know to loose.
Live as you like.
Edited: Prior to discussion on what is insulting and what is not I started to review your 17 posts here. Much to my dissapointment, your contribution is very very poor. What a pity! You have a whole section at least to contribute (Russian Military) but you decided to argue and fight instead of contribute.
I’ll be happy if you’ll find my post offensive. At least I think I’ll make you contribute.
That’s it, live as you like.
Er, i didn’t realize that forum rules allow others to insult and forbid me in the same time. My bad. BTW, Zdrager talked about different archive, he didn’t say that he was wrong in his ‘affirmation’.
Edit: Speaking of ‘contribution’, i have modern photos of ww2-era weapons, tanks and such made by me in several museums but i don’t know are they worth of posting here.
Thanks. Good question. It took me some time to find the answer.
I must admit I was wrong at this point. The origins of false story about the NKVD archive captured by the german troops lead again to Goebbels, as all other “proofs” of russians’ guiltiness. He had to explain the fact the germans knew the names of the killed poles, so he said he have the NKVD archive.
Really the germans had captured not the Smolensk NKVD archive, but the Smolensk Communist Party Province Committee (Obkom) archive. This archive really had been in the USA for half century after the WW2, and was very well studied by western historians. You can find in the Internet many papers about the “Smolensk archive”.
By the way, not a single document of this archive ever presented proves the Goebbels’s tale. The obkom was the highest authority in the region and controlled everything.[/quote]
My bold
And now your post:
There are only 2 possible explanations:
a) we both have a different logic;
b) you didn’t paid attention to Zdrager’s posts.
If there’s a third one I’ll be happy to share with me.
As for
I’ll remeber you Firefly’s reply to Chevan in Bombing of Dresden thread:
If you have felt offended by MoS’s post you should easily send a PM to the following admin and mods: Gen. Sandworm, Firefly, FW-190 Pilot, Panzerknacker and me.
Be aware that each offensive post of yours will be followed by an “offensive” post of mine. Do you prefer it? I hope not because I want to contribute not to be a policeman.
Tens of thousands of Thompson submachine guns were lend leased to Russia, although they were little used. I have seen a photograph of Russian troops armed with M1886 Lebels. There are also plenty of mauser k98k’s on the market with Russian capture marks, indicating that these were also approved for use. Here is a crap photo of a Russian soldier with an MP 40:
there’s also quite a famous photo from Stalingrad of a Russian soldier with an MP 40, which is in a book at my parent’s place.
As for insulting? The mere fact that you appear to subscribe to a creed under which Danny and Lancer were personally oppressed, and would have oppressed me had I been forced to live under it (I am the “class enemy” after all, apparently) and yet you expect me to treat you with anything other than contempt when you deny an atrocity that even the perpetrating nation has admitted to, thus placing yourself firmly in such esteemed company as David Irving and other nasty little Holocaust deniers, it insulting enough. Belittling the well referenced work of a historian as fiction because it contradicts long debunked propaganda from the 1940s? That’s just pathetic.
Zdrager, your arguments defy elementary logic. Quoting documents of NKVD Colonel and numerous “German pistols awards”, I pointed that it looks like rather mistaken translation and Walther pistol, than Mauser pistol was rather ISSUED to mentioned colonel. IT WAS AN ISSUE OF SERVICE WEAPON!
Here you can find another set of documents pointing that service pistols were often issued as awards.
"The NKVD evolved out of the CHEKA which had been formed on 20 December 1917 as the internal security arm of the new Bolshevik Government in Russia. It rapidly became an efficient and brutal force dedicated to rooting out and destroying the enemies of the new order. In 1920 it had 30,000 intelligence officers, interrogators, jailers and support staff, 137,000 internal security troops, and 94,000 border guards.
The CHEKA grew in size and scope with the formation of two new divisions: INO, the Inostrannyi Otdel, or foreign intelligence department and the KRO, an INO subsidiary unit tasked with foreign counter intelligence work. The entire CHEKA organization became the GPU on 6 February 1922, then the OGPU (pronounced OH GAY PEE OO) in 1923 before it became part of the People’s Commissariat of Internal Affairs where it resided until after the Spanish Civil War. It ultimately became the KGB after Stalin’s death.
The CHEKA and its successors always had priority in allocation of small arms. The common Russian revolvers such as the Nagant and Smith&Wesson types were in use early on along with captured foreign handguns of the various foreign powers powers which had fought Russia. The Colt .45ACP Model 1911 which had been supplied in some numbers to the Czarist Government and commercial FN Browning 9mm Long M1903 and 9mm Short M1910 pistols were also observed. Commercial purchases in Europe began about 1921 and large numbers of short barrel 7.63mm Mauser Military “Broomhandle” Pistols were acquired, so many in fact that this type of Mauser was given the nickname “Bolo Pistol”. In later years many other pistol types were acquired for various purposes from overseas sources."
“As both of the accused admitted during the investigation, Fritz David (I. I. Kruglyansky) was to have shot Comrade Stalin at the Seventh Congress with a Browning pistol which he had received from Berman-Yurin. (Vol. VIII, p. 77.)”
Regarding 6.35mm bullet cases excavated in Katyn graves:
Your mind seems to be locked into one direction. You are not discussing but, you are already absolutely sure that germans are responsible for what happened in Katyn Forest.
Korovin pistols were never stored in any military warehouses. It was NKVD weapon sometimes given to CPSU party activists.
6.35 bullet cases in Katyn graves are mentioned in Cz. Madajczyk, “Dramat katynski” Page 84, Ksiazka i Wiedza, Warsaw 1989.
(I would like to remind you Zdrager that USSR was in very close alliance with nazi Germany.)
“On 26 December 1939, Stalin thanks Ribbentrop for his birthday wishes, noting that the Soviet-German friendship has been strengthened by jointly spilled blood. In order to implement agreements concerning joint actions against the Polish underground, the Gestapo and the NKVD agree to cooperate. A joint training center is created in the Polish city of Zakopane. In March 1940 the staff of the NKVD and the Reich Main Security Office attend a meeting, where these questions are discussed. By summer 1941 the NKVD has handed over to Germany more than 4,000 people, among them families of individuals arrested in the USSR and executed German Communists. In the course of military actions the commanders of forward units of the German and Soviet armies conduct an exchange of special communications officers. Special military parades take place in Grodno, Brest, and other cities even before Warsaw’s capitulation. For example, at a military parade held in Grodno, Soviet corps commander V. Chuikov attends the pass in review with a German general, and General Heinz Guderian and Soviet brigade comman-der S. Kryvoshein attend the pass in review in Brest.”
In his 1991 book, Stalin: Breaker of Nations, historian Robert Conquest stated that the conference had taken place at Zakopane in the Winter of 1939/40.
“Starting from the October of 1939 there were some meetings betwen officers from NKVD and Gestapo. They took place in Polish city of Zakopane placed in the Tatra mountains, in villas “Telimena” and “Pan Tadeusz” and also in other city - Cracow.”
…T. Bor-Komorowski, in The Secret Army (1950), has described how in March 1940 his underground heard that an “NKVD mission had come to Cracow to work out with the Gestapo the methods they were jointly to adopt against Polish military organizations,” a consultation lasting several weeks…
I would like to mention a few points to finalize our debate.
You said before, Zdrager, that German bullet cases are 95% proof of German perpetration, because soviet forces or NKVD never used foreign weapons. So, as your thesis is now invalid, I will deal with remaining 5%. Easy task…
Polish POWs were transported from Kozielsk camp to Gniezdovo station near Katyn in conwoys departing every day - the whole action lasted a few weeks. Remaining officers - about 400 of them NKVD transported to Pavlischchev Bor - another camp.
They joined Polish Army formed in USSR after August 1941. Each transport from Kozielsk, Ostashkow and Starobielsk was documented by officers which survived. These lists were taken with them and delivered to Polish Government in exile in London.
During exhumation of Katyn graves by Germans in 1943, Germans created lists of corpses one by one as they were taken from the graves and examined. Officers were in the same groups as they departed from Kozielsk.
Germans had no way of knowing how NKVD transported sentenced to death officers in early spring of 1940.
All bodies in Katyn graves were dressed in winter clothing, in warm underwear, long jones, sweaters, jumpers and scarfs.
Do you think that this was appropriate for August 1941 - summer in continental Russia is very warm…
This fact clearly proves that Polish POWs were murdered in spring 1940 and only NKVD was able to do it.
You dismissed observation of American Colonel De Vliet, that officers boots in Katyn graves were in quite good condition.
This observation is very important - Polish officers boots had leather soles and required maintenance - resoling.
They soles should be replaced at least every two years after light use and every year if used in winter.
Leather for boot soles was in USSR very difficult to obtain. Luxury item. Almost impossible to get for POWs.
This clearly indicates that Poles were in camps only one winter - winter from 1939 to 1940…
I believe that my post and posts of other members debating this thread are enough to prove that our Russian friends are completely wrong in their findings/beliefs/complexes/propaganda lies.
I would like to express my sincere appreciation to MoS, Dani and other members of our Forum participating in this discussion.
I suggest, after excellent and truly intelligent post by MoS, that prolonged debate about facts largely proved and accepted by historians more than 17 years ago, can be insulting for murdered victims, their living families and slowly becoming derogatory for us. Soviet NKVD without any doubt committed this murder. Let’s stop dancing on the graves.
I will vote first and expect the other votes to arrive quickly:
DANI, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD.
I am aware of RA using captured equipment during the war, as all armies did. What i asked of you was proof of widespread use of foreign, for example german equipment before the war with germany. You’re accusing Russia of killing poles in 1940 with german weapons, no?
The mere fact that you appear to subscribe to a creed under which Danny and Lancer were personally oppressed, and would have oppressed me had I been forced to live under it (I am the “class enemy” after all, apparently)
You should write a book about russians oppressing Holland, it would be good business. May i hear from Lancer44 and Dani details of their horrible oppression? Of inhuman tortures they experienced in Poland and Romania? Or is it too horrible to be best left unspoken?
and yet you expect me to treat you with anything other than contempt when you deny an atrocity that even the perpetrating nation has admitted to
I expect you to treat me just like you expect me to treat you. It means you wouldn’t mind if i call you idiot? Or would it insult you?
thus placing yourself firmly in such esteemed company as David Irving and other nasty little Holocaust deniers
Ha, it’s interesting. One american i spoked with wowed he would do everything possible to free Irving ‘who is punished for his civil rights’, especially ‘freedom of speech’. I don’t deny Holocaust you know, jews weren’t killed in such mysterious circumstances poles in Katyn were and the scale of killings is incomparable.
Belittling the well referenced work of a historian as fiction because it contradicts long debunked propaganda from the 1940s?
I don’t know what everybody is doing out here. Polish president asked russian to reveal docs that may lead to uncovering the truth, but what’s the point at all? That ‘historian’ which i hear about first time (and i’ve read many western real historians, best of them is Glantz) already wrote everything about it, including shockingly detailed, almost loving description of a butcher. He should get a Nobel prize for this and all other historians should retire in awe.:mrgreen:
It was AWARDED to mentioned colonel. Such arms were incrusted with engravings like ‘To colonel Ivanov for good service’, etc. It’s similar to awarding a medal.
Do you think that this was appropriate for August 1941
Who told you about August? Gemans coud have poles executed any time they’ve wished it.
This clearly indicates that Poles were in camps only one winter - winter from 1939 to 1940…
Or maybe it indicates their boots were buried with their owners one winter less?
Maybe I should clarify who IRONMAN was. I was a just a wee little mod when this crackhead showed up on the site. I was still patient with him even when I became an admin later. IRONMAN would always behostile to others and would never take any warning. NOT SAYING ANYONE RECENTLY HAS ACTED LIKE THIS. Just want to want ppl to know that I and the forum leaders do monitor threads and acting like IRONMAN will get you banned. Also in less time than it took him as I have a shorter patience these days. This is a satire of him but sadly pretty accurate: http://www.arrse.net/wiki/IRONMAN
When ppl mention his name I like to reflect on him and who he was so the new members have an idea of how not to act. Maybe I should put this under FAQ’s
Well I have just read through all of this Thread, the good bits, the bad bits and certainly a few ugly bits.
However I have achieved the aim of this site.
I have learned from all sides. I have not only been able to form my own conclusions to contents of the Thread, but I have been able to witness the interactions between some of our newest members.
I think it has been instructive for all and the debate has certainly been lively.
I say keep the standard of debate up while remembering that insults get you no-where.
Sneaksie , do not be such obstinate please.
I think it necessary to first listen the arguments of opponents, then to pose its questions. Not necessary to take separate phrases from the different posts . You must be sequential in the protection of your position.
Read if you please personal massege in your box.
Gentlemens
I think that there must not to be any obstacles for us to obtain pleasure from the contact on this forum. I want to say you that its very interesting to me hear your points of view. Problem which we discuss was for a long time closed in THE USSR.
I never did deny that THE NKVD it can be participating to the tragedy in Katyn. For these guys to kill 20 000 people it was never to be the problem. Now in Russia are different opinions, most interesting of them are represented on www.katyn.ru
So Lancer ask : “What do you think about it dear russian friends?”
Well, personally I doubt that this was the work of THE NKVD. I have some refutation about this. However, absolutely erroneously to think that in Russia there are no other opinions. You can easily will be convinced of this on site.
I see that you practically all are confident in the reverse. But this mean nothing yet , becouse the solution of this problem is located inside Russia in the archives. I think that answer to a question it can give only the work of special Russian- Polish commission. I hope this commission will be created sometimes. Then we learn truth.
I want to ask Dani not to close this thread, because new interesting information on this theme could be appear.
I do not know who was IRONMEN, but I remember well “Greater Serbia”. He was real “extremist” and he greatly cheered me two ears ago. At that time on site WWмncolour not there was separate forum yet . It was only discussion on the photographs .
“Greater Serbia” was absolutely irresponsible, it was scolded with all members of forum. He badly knew facts, but it wrote the fun and causing posts. Some called him idiot, one american even threatened to kill him. This was gaily. Do you do remember it, Gen. Sandworm?
Katyn massacre was only one of the numerous atrocities of Stalin’s regime. But it is particularly disgusting because of decades of lie extended by USSR to conceal its guilt for mass murders of Polish POW’s in Katyn, Kharkov, and Mednoye. Sad to see some Russians still protecting the Soviet “version”. As a Russian, I’m ashamed of it, and I apologize to the Poles reading this thread. Victims of Stalin’s regime must never be forgotten.
