What if the Germans won the war

[Nickdfresh]

@Chevan

Sure it is nicer Nick.
At least their kids could survived without radiation fallout.
From 3+ mln of civil population of Berlin. Plus 1 mln of higher the refugees plus 1.5 mln of army- the 250 000 victims is not really much.
Look for instance to Hiroshima where from 400 000 of civil population in the end of the 1945 were killed and died from ilness - about 140 000 i.e one third of population.
But as we peoples continie to dies after the war.
Besides - this is not a fact that the atomic bombing could destroy the Hitler deep bunker.

Well, if it was a “one-off” surprise attack, then Hitler may not even have been in his bunker. He only resorted to the infamous bunker as things began to look bleak.

And are you seriously arguing with me over the niceties of who killed more how? And I think it has been established here that radioactive fallout was only a short term problem since the bombs were detonated above ground, and it was quickly dissipated. And claiming that everybody who has died since 1945 is the result of the bomb does not make it any truer…

The total nuclear bombing of Germany would not mean the capitulation or the surrender of German army.
While the Hitler was alive - they would fight.
Coz the firebombing compain did not forced them to the surrender ( untill the our land troops captured thier cities)- there is no any proves that the nuclear compain could do it…

It would have meant a massive decapitation strike, and that the US had a weapon far more fearsome than anything the Third Reich could hope to have - indeed, whatever was left may have wanted to sue for peace. Not to mention that the resulting anarchy would naturally result in uprisings in various occupied countries…

[Drake]

Now how did we get here, thought we were talking about a WINNING germany and what would follow :rolleyes:

[Rising_Sun]

@Drake

Now how did we get here, thought we were talking about a WINNING germany and what would follow :rolleyes:

And just to pursue that line, what would have happened to the Triple Alliance if Germany, that is Germany, won in Europe and North Africa?

Italy would have become irrelevant.

Japan’s control of resources would have been significant to Germany, as would Germany’s technological skills been siginificant to Japan.

Do Germany and Japan co-operate in taking Iran etc and then India, or do they fall out?

There is still the question of what “Germany wins” means.

There’s a world of difference between peace terms with Britain and Britain’s surrender. The former was possible, the latter most unlikely.

[pdf27]

@Chevan

Yes i/m agree.
However you will not dany fact that the Me-262 with axial turbin already WAS suitable for the Me-262 in the 1945?
The flay and shoted down the allies afaircarfts- what else the proves do you need for it.

There’s a major difference between working (sort of) and being a useful weapon. Germany was desperate by the time the Me-262 was into service as anything other than a prototype. Problems which would otherwise have been considered unacceptable were simply ignored. A good example of this is engine life. The average life of a Jumo 004 before it needed a major overhaul/scrapping was 10 hours by 1945. This was however not considered a problem simply because the life expectancy of the average pilot was less than this.

@Chevan

Besides there is no any doubt thet the Jumo004 could be much improved after the 1945.

Ummm… the Soviets tried postwar and got nowhere. There is no Jumo 004 heritage in any Soviet engine flying nowadays - it’s all based on the imported British engines and on prewar indigenous Soviet designs. All the evidence suggests that there was something fundamentally wrong with the German wartime engines - they appear to have been technological dead ends, with no descendents anywhere on earth. The way engineering works, that’s only going to happen if there is something fundamentally wrong with the design.

[tankgeezer]

It would have been the same for Hitler, scene from movie “Little Nicky”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YssMT0qXYOw

[Chevan]

@Nickdfresh

Well, if it was a “one-off” surprise attack, then Hitler may not even have been in his bunker. He only resorted to the infamous bunker as things began to look bleak.

The “one-off” surprise attack?
Are you kidding Nick? May be for Germans civils in Berlin it could be surprise but not for Hitler.He practically lived last two month od the war in Bunker. And sure the GErmans although the GErman AA defence were weaker in this period but they still was able to recognize when the Strategic bombers fly up to the Brtin;)

And are you seriously arguing with me over the niceties of who killed more how? And I think it has been established here that radioactive fallout was only a short term problem since the bombs were detonated above ground, and it was quickly dissipated. And claiming that everybody who has died since 1945 is the result of the bomb does not make it any truer…

Oh come on Nick the Neitron radiation during the reaction that charged the Ground around and the 600 gramm of extremally radioadtive products of Division of Uran - is not matter that could be “quickly dissapaited”.
In fact near the zone of epicenter the radiation fon was so great that even peoples who arrived in Hirosima after the bombing has been charged and died.

It would have meant a massive decapitation strike, and that the US had a weapon far more fearsome than anything the Third Reich could hope to have - indeed, whatever was left may have wanted to sue for peace. Not to mention that the resulting anarchy would naturally result in uprisings in various occupied countries…

Oh really the nuclear strike in Japane were more massiev thet previouse firebombing compain that killed MUCh more civils that the a-bombing for the first time?The initial damage effect of Nuclear bombing was ever less than the Firebombing of Tokio in march of 1945- when were burned the whole civils areas with population.
I think you rather overestimate the first a-bombs effect. Sure the most danger was the radioactive consequences- but in that time peoples knew a too small about it and this could not impress the Hitler for suiting of peace.
Besides do not forget about censorship and propoganda in Nazi media- Nobody out of capital could learn about the real scale of victims of possible a-bombing in Berlin.

[Chevan]

@pdf27

There’s a major difference between working (sort of) and being a useful weapon. Germany was desperate by the time the Me-262 was into service as anything other than a prototype. Problems which would otherwise have been considered unacceptable were simply ignored. A good example of this is engine life. The average life of a Jumo 004 before it needed a major overhaul/scrapping was 10 hours by 1945. This was however not considered a problem simply because the life expectancy of the average pilot was less than this.

The Me-262 was a damn useful wearpon, pdf.
Especially with the rockets R4M - this was REAL death for the Strategic bombers.
Plus 4X30 mm gun was deadly effective agains the bombers and the speed 800+ was FAR over the service combat speed any of ALLIES escort fighter in the 1944-45.
And not 10 but i/ve read 25 hours.
BTW when after the war the Jumo004 and BMW-003 were copied for the soviet production ( As the RD-10 and RD-20 accordingly). For the 1946-1947 this was a basic jet engine of the first Soviet aviation ( Mig-9,Su-9, Yak-15)
And one intersesting moment - in the conditions of the unlimited Nickel supplies in USSR the AVERAGE life of RD-10 immediatelly increased untill 100 hours!!!.
Simply coz there were enought alloy steel;)

Ummm… the Soviets tried postwar and got nowhere. There is no Jumo 004 heritage in any Soviet engine flying nowadays - it’s all based on the imported British engines and on prewar indigenous Soviet designs. All the evidence suggests that there was something fundamentally wrong with the German wartime engines - they appear to have been technological dead ends, with no descendents anywhere on earth. The way engineering works, that’s only going to happen if there is something fundamentally wrong with the design.

You dear pdf complitelly unaware of the history of the soviet jet aviation.
What about Su
Meanwhile the Mi-15 and Mig-17 used the temporary succesful VK-1 ( based on the British Nine2).
The OTHER soviets jet aircrafts used the axial RD-9 ( Little modernized copy of Jumo-004/RD-10)
Whan in the 1953 were ready the first RD-9 that was MORE effective that centrifuge compressor VK-1- the all soviet aviation has got this type of engine-
So this is quite right to say that althought the Firsts 2 Migs used the British engeens- the ALL OTHER untill the nowadays USE the German axial compressor engeens.
Coz the Axial engeens proved to be much more effective and perspective - whatever today tells the some british comrides who try ignore the germans jet achievenments.
And histroy of modern jet engeniring obviously proves the facts that the Germans Jumo/BMW were the superior in technological sense.
Perhaps you right- in the Britain the Germans jet engeens were tested and recognized to be very uneffective, but the history of Soviet jet aviation that widly used the GErmans Axial compressor documents and end even serial Jumo engeens - this was a basis for the all succesfull soviet axial compressor from RD-9.

Cheers.

[pdf27]

@Chevan

Coz the Axial engeens proved to be much more effective and perspective - whatever today tells the some british comrides who try ignore the germans jet achievenments.
And histroy of modern jet engeniring obviously proves the facts that the Germans Jumo/BMW were the superior in technological sense.
Perhaps you right- in the Britain the Germans jet engeens were tested and recognized to be very uneffective, but the history of Soviet jet aviation that widly used the GErmans Axial compressor documents and end even serial Jumo engeens - this was a basis for the all succesfull soviet axial compressor from RD-9.

Um, Chevan, you’re falling into the classic Ironman trap of assuming that because two things look the same they must be related to each other. The use of axial compressors in gas turbines way, way predates the Jumo-004. For example, A.A. Griffith was writing and publishing papers on the subject in the 1920s, while Arkhip Mikhailovich Lyulka (a name you may recognise) proposed a turbofan design (almost certainly using an axial compressor, although I can’t find an english language reference to confirm) in about 1940.

The British were well aware when they started down the centrifugal compressor route - indeed, the MetroVick Beryl predated knowledge of German jet engine designs. Likewise, I think you’re doing a disservice to Soviet engineers if you think that they relied on the Jumo 004 to come up with a jet engine. At most, it will have given them a good lesson in “things not to do because they’re a really bad idea”.

[Chevan]

@pdf27

Um, Chevan, you’re falling into the classic Ironman trap of assuming that because two things look the same they must be related to each other.

Sure it related to each other…coz it uses the simular tehnical principles.
And even the first Lyulka’s engeen TR-1 ( 1947, the power 1300 kgs) was very simular like the Jumo-004 ( 800kgs) but was a litlle modified with the new construction of burning camera and turbine.
But this engine was not

Likewise, I think you’re doing a disservice to Soviet engineers if you think that they relied on the Jumo 004 to come up with a jet engine. At most, it will have given them a good lesson in “things not to do because they’re a really bad idea”.

Do i disservice somebody pdf, If i tell about historical fact?!!
The first soviet jet engin was RD-10/20 the copy of the BMW/Jumo.
Does it mean that i decreace the role of Soviet engeneers? Sure no. But they widelly used the German experience after the war - this is historical fact.
And not only the soviets;)
However you partly right, the first SUCCESFUL and useful soviet axial turbojet was the TR-3 that was installed in Su-11 in 1953.Later the Tumanovsky has developed the excellent RD-9 ( Mig-19).

[pieandmash]

Apologie if its been mentioned earlier in the thread, but have to mention ‘It Happened Here’, a low budget anmd relatively little known, but frankly utterly fantastic 60s film about life in a post German victory Britain, one of the best films on the reality war as a civilian in an occupied country and the choices faced. very effective partly because it is complete fantasy

Recently reissued on DVD in the UK

[Nickdfresh]

@Chevan

The “one-off” surprise attack?
Are you kidding Nick?

When do I kid you, Chevan. Yes, if the US had deliberately not launched air raids using the B-36, the a first raid using atomic weapons would in fact be a surprise attack, would it not?

May be for Germans civils in Berlin it could be surprise but not for Hitler.He practically lived last two month od the war in Bunker. And sure the GErmans although the GErman AA defence were weaker in this period but they still was able to recognize when the Strategic bombers fly up to the Brtin;)

I think I mentioned that Hitler was only in the bunker because his armies were caught in a vice and he was losing. He wouldn’t have been in Europe was under his control, unopposed…

And there are many hypotheticals, but Luftwaffe interception of B-36s flying special missions, perhaps at night, may have been quite different and the air defense of the Reich would have been far different if the threat of bombing attack had been greatly reduced or was nonexistent…

Oh come on Nick the Neitron radiation during the reaction that charged the Ground around and the 600 gramm of extremally radioadtive products of Division of Uran - is not matter that could be “quickly dissapaited”.
In fact near the zone of epicenter the radiation fon was so great that even peoples who arrived in Hirosima after the bombing has been charged and died.

But only for a relatively short time. The radiation levels on the two Japanese cities are little higher than any others today. And what levels there were would have been psychologically devastating…

Oh really the nuclear strike in Japane were more massiev thet previouse firebombing compain that killed MUCh more civils that the a-bombing for the first time?

Well, they surrendered not long after, right? In fact the A-bomb was quit shocking to the Japanese consciousness…

The initial damage effect of Nuclear bombing was ever less than the Firebombing of Tokio in march of 1945- when were burned the whole civils areas with population.
I think you rather overestimate the first a-bombs effect. Sure the most danger was the radioactive consequences- but in that time peoples knew a too small about it and this could not impress the Hitler for suiting of peace.
Besides do not forget about censorship and propoganda in Nazi media- Nobody out of capital could learn about the real scale of victims of possible a-bombing in Berlin.

But the German and Japanese peoples had been conditioned for aerial bombardment over a long period of time. And the Tokyo bombardment was very damaging to morale and helped lead to the defeat of Japan along with many other factors. Even the Emperor could no longer ignore what was happening to his nation. The attacks were gradual, so the those being bombed had grown somewhat used to it as much as a population could. The Tokyo “firestorm” bombing was in itself a horrific, but a rare act as the atmospheric conditions, and the flimsy construction of Japanese housing, combined to permit a phenomena that was rare, and rather horrifying, to take place. This was something the the AAF and RAF were unable to carry out for the most part in German cities.

As too your other point regarding the media, what happens when there is no more radio or TV emanating from Berlin? When there are no more orders going out to Wehrmacht and SS garrisons, internal security commands, etc.? Who really knows? You may have even had several German commands vying for control. There is no way that the bombings, and the disappearance of several German cities could have been kept secret for long. And hopefully, Hitler would have died or have been severally incapacitated…

[Chevan]

@Nickdfresh

. Yes, if the US had deliberately not launched air raids using the B-36, the a first raid using atomic weapons would in fact be a surprise attack, would it not?

No it would not Nick.
COz even Americans hid the B-36 till the 1948 - they still used the B-29.
And Gernay would have the excellent training to improve its AA-defence system ( both fighters and Radio controlled AA-rocketry).
And i think you are forgetting - we cinsider the situation the Germany win the war in Europe- i.e they would had not lack of the resourses,oil and manpower ( as it was in 1944-45 in reality).
So there is no any doubts that the Geramny would had the DEADLY effective means of against Strategic bombers . Besides they could seriously improved its jet aviation and create the new transobic aircrafts ( using the modernized Me-262HGIII or probably Ta-183).
Even if the single B-36 was able to reach the Berlin drop the a-bomb. There is no any guaranties that Hitler would be killed.And do not forget about political consequences of the sudden A-bombing of winner Germany.
Hitler will use it in its anti-american propoganda and could order to treat the American POWs ( pilots and soldiers ) as with the Military crimes.
They would execute them all in case of a-bombing.And the Nazy propogandy would portray the USA ans the World evil
Besides do not forget about V-2 project. In fact in the end of the war Germans had reached the effectiveness over 70%( i.e the 70% reached the Britain). So there is no any doubts that possibly till the beinning of 1950 they would ready the transcontinentall V-9/10.
Shortly speaking Nick - there is no any chances for the America if the USSR and Britain would defeat;)

I think I mentioned that Hitler was only in the bunker because his armies were caught in a vice and he was losing. He wouldn’t have been in Europe was under his control, unopposed…

Not just.
He lived in bunker coz of continious Strategic bombers dropped the bomb over the Germany since 1944.
And he clearly understand that the Berlin could be the target in any time.SO he live in bunker.

But only for a relatively short time. The radiation levels on the two Japanese cities are little higher than any others today. And what levels there were would have been psychologically devastating…

Today Nick have passed over 60 years.
But in the 1945 the radiation background was still great con the fissionof Uran-235 prodused a great flux of neitrons that charged the land around for the different times ( from few minutes until the 20++years).
Besides the the products of the fission: Ku-92 , Ba-141 ans T-139 are very HEavy and deadly radioactive elements. Do not believe me - ask the pdf

Well, they surrendered not long after, right? In fact the A-bomb was quit shocking to the Japanese consciousness…

Unfortinatelly Nick we have NO any proves that confirms that Japanes were quite shocking by a-bomb. The death rate for the first time was ever less then in previous firebombing compain. They officially refused Wishington vertion that bomb “helped to finish the war”.
Indeed the part of historians even doubt the fact that Japan imperor even conside the a-bomb as a factor for surrender .

As too your other point regarding the media, what happens when there is no more radio or TV emanating from Berlin? When there are no more orders going out to Wehrmacht and SS garrisons, internal security commands, etc.? Who really knows? You may have even had several German commands vying for control. There is no way that the bombings, and the disappearance of several German cities could have been kept secret for long. And hopefully, Hitler would have died or have been severally incapacitated…

What disappearance of GErman cities Nick you talk about?
The firebombing compain nothing destroyed- it only killed the number of peoples and temporary damaged the military production. But soon Germans restored it untill the Germany will captured by land troops.
Did the allies "destroyed " any city via firebombing or somehow decrease the ability GErmany to resist?
True, they created more problems for the Germans - but at that same time thay had a great loses of the superexpensive Strategic bombers till the end of war.
And Only total material and manpower superiority of allies let them to use such a Super uneffective way to fight using the B-17/29.
Cheers.

[Firefly]

@pieandmash

Apologie if its been mentioned earlier in the thread, but have to mention ‘It Happened Here’, a low budget anmd relatively little known, but frankly utterly fantastic 60s film about life in a post German victory Britain, one of the best films on the reality war as a civilian in an occupied country and the choices faced. very effective partly because it is complete fantasy

Recently reissued on DVD in the UK

Thanks for that info matey, I shall keep an eye out for it.

[Digger]

A cheaper alternative to firing thousands of A-9/10 rockets with their one tonne payload at America targets, the Luftwaffe would have been better served by the Amerika Bomber(no matter what version) if this project was completed by 1948.

A missile bombardment programme capable of bringing America to it’s knees would have sent Germany broke before acheiving any military goal.

Digger

[Firefly]

Of course, Hitller may have been dead anyway by 1948. He was on a rapidly downhill slope way before 1945.

[Chevan]

Well i’ve heared the Hitler was ill by a cancer in the 1945.
Is it true?

[Drake]

@Chevan

Well i’ve heared the Hitler was ill by a cancer in the 1945.
Is it true?

Hard to tell without remains (body and files), but I thought I once heard the reason for his condition was a mix of a degenerative brain disease (Alsheimer) and substance abuse. He would’ve probably lived on for quite some time if that was true but would’ve turned into a veggie sooner or later.

[Nickdfresh]

@Drake

Hard to tell without remains (body and files), but I thought I once heard the reason for his condition was a mix of a degenerative brain disease (Alsheimer) and substance abuse. He would’ve probably lived on for quite some time if that was true but would’ve turned into a veggie sooner or later.

The hypothical stuff is giving me a headache…So I’ll just stick to this.

But I have heard Hitler had Parkinson’s Disease, and was essentially on a “cocktail” of drugs such as speed and painkillers to combat his shakes…

He didn’t have long after 1945…

It would be interesting to speculate what would have happened when Hitler kicked. Who would ascend to be the Third Reich’s new leader?

Was any form of liberalization or moderation possible?

[Rising_Sun]

Hitler’s health status and medical treatment have been closely researched and debated for years by historians and medicos.

There is a strong chance that his problems were as much created as relieved by his favoured physician Dr Theodor Morell, who wasn’t held in high regard by some other members of the Nazi elite.

This is a superficial summary, but it’s what Google threw up so it’ll do as an introduction as I threw out the books I had on this a while back.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-151964700.html

[Digger]

Interesting article, but no mention of Morrell’s successful treatment for Hitler’s impotence.

While Morrell’s competence has been heavily questioned over the last sixty plus years, much of it was derived from a degree of professional jealousy. Remember there was no body for autopsy and therefore some accusations are largely unfounded.

digger.