What if the Germans won the war

And if pigs had personal helicopters they might fly. Actually, that’s rather more likely than the scenario you suggest above.

What gives you that idea? Outside of the army (and even there the Soviet high commanders like Zhukov were substantially better) and some small sections of the navy the Germans were a bunch of clowns. The Soviets were extremely competent, had access to far greater resources and no desire to launch a suicidal war against the rest of the world. There is no way that the Nazi ideology is compatible with a long cold war - it would have turned hot in one big hurry, at which point Germany faces nuclear annihilation.

Not flaming likely. The Germans are ideologically committed to the extermination of the non-Aryan races, of which there are rather a lot. The Soviets never were. The chances of this putative cold war being friendly are close to zero, even if Joseph P Kennedy reaches a senior position in the US.

Errr… nope. They were a bunch of clowns when it came to physics, with even the Japanese and Soviet nuclear programmes being miles ahead of the German one (the Germans failed to calculate critical mass correctly, or to come up with any practical means of Uranium enrichment). As for the heavy water, the fact that the Germans managed to boil dry and then melt down their research reactor - containing what was at the time their entire supply of heavy water - suggests strongly that unlimited heavy water would not have done them very much good. Indeed, if you look out the Farm Hall transcripts*, you’ll find that the German nuclear physicists taken prisoner at the end of the war didn’t believe the nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were possible when told about them - they believed them to be a hoax.

  • Farm Hall was a house near Cambridge in England where those German scientists suspected of participation in nuclear weapons related research were detained at the end of the war. The place was thoroughly bugged, and the transcripts indicate that those detained there thought it probably wasn’t. It is clear from the transcripts that they had thought nuclear weapons to be impractical (due to a massive miscalculation in critical mass) although once told that they had been built worked out the basic theory fairly quickly. There is no reason to believe that given more time they would have done any better, at least until the first public test of a nuclear weapon.

Err… no. As already established, the German nuclear programme could have been run more effectively by Coco the Clown, while the Manhattan project was run with ruthless efficiency. Furthermore, the German bombers did not have the performance you claim - the “New York” flight is first mentioned in 1955, and the German records clearly show both that the aircraft was in Prague at the time the flight is claimed to have taken place, and that the maximum take off weight would have to be doubled to reach New York from France. To claim that an aircraft with such marginal (to put it charitably) performance could deliver an extremely heavy weapon* and have the performance to survive doing so - given that the B-29 only marginally survived the experience, and had much higher performance - goes beyond implausible. It goes into the range of the borderline insane.

*Fat Man, the Plutonium type bomb that Germany would have produced in the unlikely event of their Heavy Water research actually bearing fruit, weighed approximately 5 tonnes - more than 10% of the maximum take-off weight of the Ju-390. Adding even a small amount of weight to an aircraft radically increases fuel burn in the early stages of the flight - so even if the Ju-390 had achieved the impossible and actually reached New York as claimed, it could not have done so with a nuclear weapon on board.

No, America went to war when Germany declared war on them. However, it is clear that from late 1940 onwards the US was planning to fight a war with Germany with no European allies to hand. This can be seen in the release of the specification that became the B-36 in April 1941. It is for a bomber with frankly awesome payload characteristics, capable of attacking anywhere in Europe from bases in the Continental United States, and with a performance such as to make interception almost impossible*. The fact that the specification for this was drawn up more than a year before Germany declared war on the United States clearly indicates that the US was seriously considering the need to fight a war with Germany by itself, and planning to produce the tools required. When Britain demonstrated that it could hold out and the US entered the war, priorities changed - hence what was actually built - but the early orders clearly demonstrate what the US had in mind.

  • The initial requirements were for 275 mph at 45,000 ft, later reduced to 300 mph at 40,000 ft. For comparison, that is right at the ragged edge of the performance of the then current Me-109F, making the B-36 virtually uninterceptable. For interception to be practical, fighters need significant range and early warning to get into approximately the right position, and a significant performance advantage to make a kill. At operating altitudes it would appear that the B-36 would have more performance and probably more manouverability (due to the lower wing loading). This makes it an extremely difficult target.

OK, seriously, are you sober here? The US had roughly 60% of the entire world’s industrial capacity in 1941, and since it had the world’s most powerful navy (and hence the capability to blockade Germany, a capability Germany could not apply to the US) also had access to just about any resources it wanted. Furthermore, the US population in 1940 was 132,000,000 while the German population in 1940 was approximately 80,000,000. By any measure you care to apply, the US was superior to Germany.

Man, we’ve got another “German uberweapons and Erwin Rommel should have won WW2” moron here. The Germans were a bit ahead of everyone else when it came to rockets during WW2, largely because everyone else had more sense than to bother. The reality of it is that during WW2 Von Braun couldn’t reliably hit London from the other side of the Channel, and that while there were a small number of prominent Germans in the US rocket programme postwar the overwhelming majority of the work was done by Americans.
Now, because I feel like a giggle, list the technology the Americans “looted” from Germany after the war, and demonstrate exactly how that pushed the US forward.

The fact is, of course, that up until Robert S MacNamara <spit> gutted the US bomber programme and missile defence systems in a misguided attempt to save money, bombers were both the most accurate and reliable way of delivering nuclear weapons to a target. The fact is that just about everyone who has tried (including recently the Indians) has come up with a working ABM system very rapidly indeed - it just isn’t very hard at all.

Ah, now we see the real reason you admire the Nazis. Consider this an informal warning for anti-semitic Nazi trolling. When you do it again in future (as I have no doubt you will, your sort always do) I’ll take great pleasure in giving you the boot.

Indeed it did. In blood and smoke, 12 years after it was proclaimed. And not a moment too soon.

They were shipping a small amount of natural Uranium ore to Japan, in a submarine captured before it got there. That stuff is actually pretty inoccuous - we used it as a doorstop at a place I used to work before someone realised it made the paperwork look bad and banished it to a suitable storage cupboard.

I’ve read the reports of a large explosion in Manchura claimed to be of a Japanese nuclear bomb. Quite apart from the question of why they hell they tested their only device in an out-of-the-way province instead of using it to attack the US fleet, the descriptions are inconsistent with a first generation nuclear weapon. The authors of this report (which I regard to be a work of fiction, as I do the almost identical report from the German Baltic coast in 1945) appear to be making the assumption that smaller weapons are easier to make, and thus the Japanese must have made a mini-nuke. In fact, weapons of around 10kT are the easiest and small ones are actually quite difficult, making the reports of this device entirely implausible.

They would have ended up being turned into soap in some concentration camp or other. By and large they didn’t leave for the hell of it, but because they had good reason to fear for their lives.
In any case, it’s pretty much irrelevant - there is good reason the Manhattan project was run by the US Army Corps of Engineers, and the official name was the Manhattan Engineering District. While the Physics problems were hellish, the majority of the manpower was devoted to the engineering of building and running the enrichment & reactor/reprocessing facilities (the Germans couldn’t even manufacture basic materials for it, for example Graphite free from Boron and Cadmium (both ravenous neutron absorbers) as a reactor moderator). This was the purely American contribution to the project, and the reason why the scale and achievement of the project was beyond anyone else on earth for some years postwar.

Take a uranium enrichment plant for instance. It has to use Uranium Hexaflouride (UF6) because Flourine has only one stable isotope (19 F) and accordingly this is the only Uranium gas which can be used in a mass seperation process. UF6 of course is extremely corrosive and reacts violently with water, and is therefore extremely dangerous to any humans who come in contact with it. This deeply unpleasant gas must then be run through a massive industrial plant that humans can’t enter for safety reasons, which consumes immense amounts of electrical power and which has to work right first time. The enriched Uranium which eventually emerges from this process must be treated extremely gingerly (there was a fatal accident involving mishandling enriched Uranium at Tokaimura as recently as 1999) and eventually if your physicists and bomb engineers are competent then around 6 months after you start production you have enough highly enriched Uranium for a single weapon.

It would have been merely a symbolic gesture and political attack to remind Americans that they weren’t immune…But I imagine that one of the reasons that the Germans never made a more concerted effort was that pinprick attacks would in some ways make them look weaker for the very reason you mentioned, it took a lot of bombers to inflict serious damage…

If they dropped a few bombs, and no one was killed and few buildings were damaged, or worse, US AAA fire caused more damage than the attack, I think it would have been slightly embarrassing…

One of the things I’d like to know more about was the US continental air defense network of the day. I’m sure there were at least some P-51s stationed around NYC…

…all I know is that Beer today, would be a lot cheaper if they had won the war!

Ya, but we would have been drunk slaves, with all the Great beer!

Actually I imagine by now that things would be much the same as they are. The forces of history would still have moved in the same general direction (IMO.)

on this topic…

check out this video…:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=lVksVZs0nmo


“On Average it took 5 Panthers to take out a Sherman…4 would be in a ditch out of fuel or broken down…and the fifthe one simply blew the Sherman away”

That video has a seriously messed up premise. Germany conquering the British Isles and knocking America out of the war just because the Normandy invasion fails? That’s the sort of territory you can only get in to with Alien Space Bat intervention - by that stage in the war even if all the allies had been magically knocked out the Soviets would still have crushed Germany, with the war taking only a few months longer.

Akashdnazi, is there a window in your soft-walled room ?
If so, how many moons can you see from it ?

i just posted a link and so much condemnation???

i m really depperessed

You shouldn’t be.

That’s a very funny video.

Admittedly, I stopped watching it around the end of the first minute as it was clearly a hopelessly clumsy attempt at a spoof on lugubrious alternate history, but as spoofs are so rarely attempted in that area it deserves recongnition for a humorous approach to a turgid area of non-history.

You need to watch it a few more times to get some laughs and cheer yourself up.

Yeah very funny…

Well, without going into any arguments that already occured, here’s my idea for what would have happened if Germany had won the war against Russia, UK and US:
(In bullet points, so it’s easier to put them in quotes for the inevitable counter):smiley:

  • The majority of the Jews would be dead, with a few having taken on new identity and some having fled to the Americas. The Holocaust would be scratched out of the Annals of history by the Nazi censors.

  • Since I don’t see German territorial ambitions ending with winning the war against it’s known oppositions, I would say that Germany would control all of Europe, Africa and the Middle East.

  • Berlin would be Germania, the “capital of the world”, and Speer would be the new Nero.

  • The Japanese Empire and the Third Reich would meet somewhere along the lines of India. At the very least, a War between the two would happen, though I have little doubt that Germany would win, simply because of the bigger technological advances they had made (Japan would probably get Nuked by the Germans instead of the Americans…)

  • America would go back to Isolationism, though I can see South America (Argentine, Chile) and Mexico joining the Axis cause (as they were offered but repeatedly declined in reality, mainly because they were smart enough to know that Germany was going to lose) and possibly even attacking the US.

  • Through this, North America would be the new Middle East, a constant conflict zone.

  • Sooner or later, the German Empire, like every Empire before it, would collapse, with most of the ‘colonies’ outside of Europe becoming independent states.

  • Central and continental Western Europe as well as the Eastern European states with the exception of Eastern Russia would remain under German control, simply because they would be easy to check up and keep pressure on.

My money is on Reinhard Heydrich as Hitler’s successor.
Heydrich would have disposed of both Rudolf Hess and Heinrich Himmler.
This is one of the reasons Himmler so very much feared Heydrich, but was scared to eliminate him after Hitler passed the mantle to Heydrich.
Heydrich would eventually have reached an accommodation with each of Schellenberg and Gehlen, after which Canaris ceases to be relevant, as does Goring.

From there, case closed.

Modernisation, would be a certainty: Heydrich believed in technology.

As to liberalisation; to the degree Heydrich found it expedient he would have permitted it, as long as it was th the advantage of the Reich.

Regards, Uyraell.

Well, Uryaell, depends on how different the war went. IIRC, Heyrich was assassinated in 1942, so unless you we say that everything went completely different, he would’ve been out of the race, anyway.

But if he hadn’t been killed, then yes, I think Heydrich would have been the one with the best shot at the title of 2nd Fuhrer or something like that…

To get the US going back to isolationism, you have to push the point of departure WAY back - probably at least as far as Woodrow Wilson and Teddy Roosevelt. After those two, the US was pretty much irrevocably committed to world affairs, and it would also have had an effective monopoly on nuclear weapons and delivery systems until the 1950s (as in @). If you do that, then the whole Third Reich will be butterflied away anyway, as the conditions causing it to rise in the first place would never happen. You also need either a totally different Japan or a massively weaker Russia (after Khalkin Gol, any Japanese expansion would have involved war with the US - which would shatter US isolationism, and be a war Japan could not win).

Um, Heydrich was killed by SAS Czech patriot commandos on a suicide mission. And thankfully the fucking butcher cunt died a very painful death, agonizing death of blood poisoning.

Moderation you say? Um, he was one of the key figures that goaded Germany into the “Final Solution” at the Wannasee Conference and was known as “The Butcher of Prague.” Thank Jesus his guts got a spattering of car-seat from a grenade and lingered for days. I guess that was a small measure of justice in a World War devoid of it!

The US was already fighting a low-intensity Naval conflict in the Atlantic by 1941 and was certainly not neutral nor isolationist by that point. In the unlikely event Britain were taken, there were already US war-plans that called for the deployment of US divisions to the Soviet Union…because there was no way Germany was going to conquer both Britain and the Soviet Union simultaneously…

I think he said modernization, not moderation…

You’re right. He also mentioned “liberalization.”