True.
Henk
One for the “WW2 Myths” section this. While the Germans were indeed busy in the Balkans shortly before the start of Barbarossa, the spring rains in 1941 were unusually heavy and the ground wasn’t suitable for a tank offensive until a few days before Barbarossa actually started.
I think the whole concept of the Russian campain as annihalition war was wrong and alienated a populations that probably would be sympathic to any enemy of Staliniam, a more smarter thing to go was for the German to esthablish puppet “national” Russian goverment that will oppose Stalin to convert the Russian masses to the axis cause.
Very good point, but the fact that the Germans considered the Slavs sub-human precluded this idea.
Very good point, but the fact that the Germans considered the Slavs sub-human precluded this idea.[/quote]
Yes but in the past they show ability to ignore ideology for pragmatic reasons (i.e the foreigner divisons of the SS were not all aryan, the Jewish michling who served in the Wehrmacht, the allieance with Japan and the USSR).
the Jewish michling who served in the Wehrmacht,
Can you please expand on that bit, I dont really understand it.
how can italian troops use rifles in the 19 century and never improved?
and Mussolini expect sucess with that kind of equipment, that just wierd to me
It’s estimate that about 150 thousends German with Jewish ancestry served in the Wehrmacht, I suggest you read the excellent book, Hitler’s Jewish Soldiers.
Yes, but I am sure that few if any full jews served in the German forces during ww2.
Here is a precis of the book you mention:
Going further, this sitesums why the Nazis failed to me.
The Russian campaign was a complete disaster from the start and poorly planned. Stalins huge gamble to send all of his shock armies from the east to the western front paid off in spades, the Germans simply couldnt handle the numbers and the constant push of being outnumbered at least 10 to 1 and the weather surely didnt help any either. Had the campaign been planned correctly it would have been a joint attack with Japan invading Russia from the East, this would have tied Stalins hands and the German 6th could have easily over-run Moscow and gotten ‘rid’ of Stalin. Getting Stalin out of the picture early should have been the main directive of Barbarosa. The mite of the Russian shock armies should have been occupied in the East by the Japanese, this would have given Germany the upper hand in the west. Why the Japanese felt it necessary at such a crucial time to engage the USA in Naval warfar instead of invading Russia was a tremendous mistake and ultimately lead to their demise.
One for the “WW2 Myths” section this. While the Germans were indeed busy in the Balkans shortly before the start of Barbarossa, the spring rains in 1941 were unusually heavy and the ground wasn’t suitable for a tank offensive until a few days before Barbarossa actually started.[/quote]
Excellent point: There was so much mud Hitler couldn’t start the attack anyway, and there was so critical lack of trucks Hitler couldn’t start the attack anyway, and Luftwaffe wasn’t ready yet so Hitler couldn’t start the attack anyway… and list goes on… 
So basically Barbarossa started as soon as it was possible.
And more Myths: Winter clothing - there was surprisingly lot of winter clothing for germans, but the coldness broke down water pipes (or some water related part) in locomotives, so there wasn’t capacity to transport them to soldiers.
And I think Barbarossa was greatly planned: with very very tiny fraction of german production converted to military production Hitler destroyed basically all the Soviet divisions in the Western part of Soviet Union, and captured more than 50% of several key natural resources.
And Moscow… germans forced russians to evacuate government away, and also communications centers were evacuated, lot of factories were relocated, Stalin even asked US to send troops, even under US generals… What was left was railway tracks, because russians didn’t have time to evacuate them away ;-D
What would have germans gained by capturing Moscow? Political victory? Who cared about loss of Kiev, or Minsk, or Smolensk, or Sevastopol, or siege of Leningrad…
Any western country would have most likely surrendered facing those losses Stalin faced. So, german attack was quite good, one could say.
Personally I would have directed the Barbarossa more to southern sector: most(!) of the soviet food, oil, coal, meat etc resources came from there. All that would have been taken away from Stalin, to the germans, leaving Stalin with snow and siberian forests. Oh, and Moscow ;-D
-
Stalin did not have any Shock Armies in the Far East in 1941. I don’t think any were even formed till 1942. In fact far Eastern Forces were negligable in comparrison with the Red Army West of Smolensk.
-
While I agree that attack the US was stupid move on Japan’s part they weren’t in a position to attack Russia as they were fighting China. They had already been beaten by the Russians in '36 and '39 in multi division border clashes. What Japan needed was oil and there wasn’t any in Estern Siberia so I fail to see Japan’s motive in helping the Germans.
-
Out of interest why Sixth Army?
I have to agree with Canaris, the Eastern Divisions only amounted to at most 15. While very well equipped for winter warfare, they didnt actually do as much as some peole like to make out, what they did was enough though and together with General Winter and the Mad Corporal that put paid to any German swift victory.
-
The push the Russians got from their Eastern army (they called the shock armies if not mistaken) broke the Germans backs. Maybe not as large a force as was already assembled in the west for defence but tough as nails, experianced in warfare and trained for bitter weather. They also fought with a ‘never surrender’ attitude, unlike Russias western units that succumbed to mass surrenders in '41.
-
I should have been clearer on that statement. The Japanese could have provided the necessary ‘DIVERSION’ the Germans needed. With Japan “threatening” from the East, Stalin might not have been so fast to pull forces from Siberia.
-
Had the 6th army swung north and joined with Guderian, the push on Moscow would have been successful early on. If they could have done it fast enough and gotten to Stalin, the Russians would have been rudderless and my guess is surrendered. You must not forget, when the Germans launched their assault on the Russian front, Hitler was seen as a lesser evil than Stalin in the hearts of many Russians. With Stalin removed early, Germany wins.
OK, I’m beginning to see your point: The Japanese could have launched a diversionary attack for Operation Typhoon, not Operation Barbarosa as whole. This diversionary attack might have prevented the redeployment of the Siberian Divisions, which would they were unavailable for the Moscow counter-attack, which means it might have failed. Therefore the Germans take Moscow in early 1942.
Maybe.
I think Stalin would have evacuated in good time to avoid being taken though he might have been killed by his own generals while on the run.
I have to add, i have never understood Hitlers motives for pushing the enitre 6th army into oblivion at Stalingrad. The oil was much further south towards Greece, Stalingrad was actually ‘out of the way’ so to speak, and possessed no real strategic importance either. Paulus’ 6th could have met up with Guderian’s (2nd Army?) and would have been an overwhelming force which could have immediately pushed over and past Moscow in the INITIAL assault BEFORE winter. I guess its easy to make the call now, after the fact but overstretching the Wehrmachts resources was one of if not the biggest mistake the Germans made.
I remember watching on the history channel that the German soldiers were seen just falling over dead. When autopsied, they were found to have very little or no body fat and their heart had shrunk in size (apparently from atrophy). The physician in charge of the autopsies suggested that the soldiers should eat more high fat foods. So everyone was issued meat paste that was very high in fat. However, since the soldiers’ potasium levels had gone down, this was of no use and actually caused more casualties.
I absolutely agree. Poles had taken Moscow in 17th century, Napoleon Bonaparte did it in 19th century. After few months they had to withdraw, because of cold, lack of supplies etc. The Russian forces simply moved to the east and prepared a counterattack. I can’t imagine how Hitler was planning to secure and control such a huge area as Russia (even european part is just too big). Forcing Russian to surrender and creating a puppet goverment would gave him nothing. Still there would be enough men and political leaders in Russia willing to fight III Reich. Just a matter of time. Esspecially when fuhrer considered Slavians as non-humans. Even Roman Empire tried to buy barbarians’ favourability somehow. Hitler was too stupid to learn from history.
[quote=“Kovalski”]
I absolutely agree. Poles had taken Moscow in 17th century, Napoleon Bonaparte did it in 19th century. After few months they had to withdraw, because of cold, lack of supplies etc. The Russian forces simply moved to the east and prepared a counterattack. I can’t imagine how Hitler was planning to secure and control such a huge area as Russia (even european part is just too big). Forcing Russian to surrender and creating a puppet goverment would gave him nothing. Still there would be enough men and political leaders in Russia willing to fight III Reich. Just a matter of time. Esspecially when fuhrer considered Slavians as non-humans. Even Roman Empire tried to buy barbarians’ favourability somehow. Hitler was too stupid to learn from history.[/quote]
Hitler confided to Guderian that had he known the Russians possessed so many tanks he would have never started a war with Russia. Hitler knew he made a mistake but it was too late at that point.
When did Poland ever take Moscow? I think someone is having you on.