Rising Sun* : "I’ll see if I can find English translations, as my Italian is limited to restaurant menus. 
"
The only words you need know are “Bierra” and “Grappa”
As I said before, I meant no offence. As an American of french descent I say the same thing about the French. How long did they last against the German invaders, 60 days? It’s enough to make one ashamed of their ancestry! The Germans could have been stopped cold much earlier in the war but the French failed to act initially when Germany marched into the Rhineland in 1936. But when given a chance to fight amongst others, the French and Italian peoples fought well in the American and Canadian armies.
I’m sorry, but there is some type of Western European mindset when it comes to this sort of thing. In my opinion, it happened then and it is happening now with Afghanistan. We , the Americans, are doing the brunt of the fighting while most of our NATO allies are only in support roles and with minimal troops at that!
I do not question the bravery of the individual Italian soldier or other European soldiers, but the facts are facts. The Russian people fought the Germans like tigers, the whole nation joined in. The Western Europeans? Well, we all know what happened there.
Probably a bit less actually…
It’s enough to make one ashamed of their ancestry!
Are you ashamed to be an American, then? After all, we sort of came to the war very late. It’s easy to be a blustery American regarding the events of 1933-1940–when your country with its army in a shambles–wasn’t on the border of Germany facing a 2:1 manpower deficit and a then state-of-the-art air force. America was a nation that politically had to use the Fall of France as a reason to rebuild its armed forces in order to justify and pay an economic toll anywhere near what the French had paid to maintain their ill-fated armed forces…
The Germans could have been stopped cold much earlier in the war but the French failed to act initially when Germany marched into the Rhineland in 1936.
Hindsight. Of course Germany could have been stopped, but there was a lack of political will amongst the former Allies of WWI, not just the French. They would have had to act unilaterally in a situation in which many in Britain and America were actually sympathetic to the aims of German national sovereignty and believed that they had the right to control their own territory by projecting power, irregardless of whom the German Chancellor was…
But when given a chance to fight amongst others, the French and Italian peoples fought well in the American and Canadian armies.
There are many cases in the Battle of France where Frenchman fought very well, ironically, especially after it was clear that the strategic coup de main attack of Germany was a catastrophe that the French Army could not recover from. But only a small portion of this had to do with the silly ****ing simpleton notions of “cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys,” disparaging cliches largely the result of two poorly trained and equipped “B” divisions of guarding the Ardennes sector along with a series of strategic blunders by the French high command…
I’m sorry, but there is some type of Western European mindset when it comes to this sort of thing. In my opinion, it happened then and it is happening now with Afghanistan. We , the Americans, are doing the brunt of the fighting while most of our NATO allies are only in support roles and with minimal troops at that!
Maybe its because Europe is the recipient of all the heroin our “allies” in Kabul are enriching themselves from? We Americans also suffered the brunt of the 9/11 terrorist attacks which started the whole thing. So shouldn’t we actually bear the brunt of the fighting?
I do not question the bravery of the individual Italian soldier or other European soldiers, but the facts are facts. The Russian people fought the Germans like tigers, the whole nation joined in. The Western Europeans? Well, we all know what happened there.
(((((riiggghhhtttt)))))… :rolleyes:
Really? The “Russians all fought like tigers?” You mean the over one million that surrendered in the beginning of Operation Barbarossa surrendering vastly more territory than the Wehrmacht had seized in the entire Western Campaign as the Heer (in the words of one very astute German soldier) was “conquering itself to death”?
Do yourself a big favor, and look at a map of Russia. Then look at a map of France. Then maybe read some books like Beevor’s Stalingrad or Hornes To Lose a Battle for starters…
I call bull*hit
- France took more combat casualties in 1940 than the US did in the entire war in Europe.
- The US was attacked from Afghanistan, the Europeans were not. One could make similar comments about Libya - the US isn’t involved at all there, that’s a European war.
And how long did it take the Germans to conquer an area of Russia the size of France, with how many casualties in the doing? The Russians were extremely fortunate to have a huge land area with poor transport infrastructure. The French were not.
hey WTF you touch the Russia here?Hands out from Laconia, you both , brainwashed , dudes;)
And how long did it take the Germans to conquer an area of Russia the size of France, with how many casualties in the doing? The Russians were extremely fortunate to have a huge land area with poor transport infrastructure. The French were not.
You ,honestly, also were a damn fortunate to have a … Channel. If to look how you fough with Japane entire the two first years , just god know what might to happend in case of Wermacht invasion.If to consider the “infrastructure and territory” we shall conclude Britain hardly may hold more then a couple of weeks.
Really? The “Russians all fought like tigers?” You mean the over one million that surrendered in the beginning of Operation Barbarossa surrendering vastly more territory than the Wehrmacht had seized in the entire Western Campaign as the Heer (in the words of one very astute German soldier) was “conquering itself to death”?
Not like a tiger , but at least …desperately.
If to look at map of Asia where you skedaddle from Japane entire 1942 i would not bet the size of territory is MATTER.And that million lost has finally denied the Barbarossa BTW.
Soviet soldiers often had a degree of encouragement behind them, in the form of political commissars and others prepared to use draconian powers to urge them forward, which the Western Allies generally lacked.
As for the whole nation joining in, Russia and the wider Soviets weren’t entirely free of those who went over to the Nazis, whether for military service or as civilians administering Russian territory under the Nazis. Which makes the Russians about on par with most of the rest of Europe in WWII.
As I’ve said many times before, no nation has a monopoly on courage, or cowardice.
The Germans could have been stopped dead if GM hadn’t provided it with synthetic fuel technology without which, according to Speer, Hitler would not have invaded Poland and if Ford had not provided Germany with motor vehicles made in Germany.
Or Henry Ford and GM heavyweight James Mooney could have declined the highest civilian awards Hitler could give them in 1938, which might have signified their distaste for rather than acceptance of the Nazi regime which would soon expand across Europe in various machines and courtesy of various technology supplied by Ford and GM. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm
Somewhat overblown more here http://www.dogandlemon.com/sites/dogandlemon.com/files/Cars__Nazis.pdf
Anyway, what did isolationist America do in 1936 or even almost all of 1941 to stop WWII, in part under the influence of self-centred and obscenely rich capitalist ****s like Henry Ford who wanted the war in Europe to go on forever as he was profiting from supplying both sides?
America, as significant elements of its nation such as Ford and GM although not as a government, was heavily involved commercially and politically in facilitating German aggression in Europe while conveniently and safely remote from the warlike and other nasty consequences of those actions.
France, having lost vastly more people and suffered vastly more damage in WWI than America could begin to imagine from its relatively minor losses of men despite America converting those relatively minor losses into a national catastrophe in subsequent film and culture, did not have the luxury of being able to interfere in and profit from dealings with Germany while happily separated from it by the Atlantic Ocean.
France can’t be criticised from an American perspective for ‘failing to act’ at any time before WWII when significant elements in America were contributing substantial war materiel and political support to the Nazis on France’s doorstep and when those elements were not stopped from doing so by the American government.
Mate, I’ve had grappa made by displaced Italian peasants down here. These are the sort of blokes who in my manual working youth when we’d have two or three glasses of beer with a counter lunch (cheap and basic lunch in a bar, e.g. mixed grill = sausage, lamb chop, small piece of steak, a rasher or two of bacon, potato chips, grilled tomato, fried egg, baked beans, couple of teaspoons of salt, unlimited tomato sauce -ketchup for you -, and decorative lettuce leaf which nobody ever ate) would have five or six pots of beer (about half as much again as a glass) and each pot with whisky or brandy chasers - often a few doubles - for each beer. Then they’d go back to work and lay concrete and terrazzo perfectly, while we’d have been falling into the concrete if we’d drunk like they did.
If NASA had collared a couple of barrels of their grappa it could have landed men in the next galaxy.
I’ll stick with the bierrra. Nastro Azzuro is fine.
Grappa is a force of nature, one to be wary of, I met Dame Grappa in Europe. My Italian friends enjoyed it with us, and our next morning debilitated state. We very kindly returned the cultural exchange with a bottle of Southern Comfort. It was then our turn to enjoy. I met many Italian people, and found them all to be industrious, and meticulous, nose to the grindstone people, but they never turned aside from celebrating life, and family, and were always very warm, and welcoming even when times were tough.
Unarguable - in fact if the channel had miraculously dried up in 1940 Britain would probably have fallen before France did…
I’ve read a lot and you do not have me convinced of your viewpoint.
Chevan, I mean no disrespect to the soldiers of the Red Army in the Great Patriotic War. What I’m saying is that “victory” and “defeat” is a very narrow run thing. But there is a definite comparison between the six week Battle for France and the initial time period of Barbarossa. That’s not to say the Soviets did not often “fight like dogs.” But many Frenchmen also “fought like dogs.” The situation is simple–the Soviet Red Army had time and space to make good the blunders of the opening days of battle and to turn its massive material and industrial advantage to bear on Germany. What’s often ignored in the “French only lasted six weeks” comment is that the French were actually improving dramatically and came up with a formula for stopping a “Blitzkrieg” through the use of hedgehog defenses and what became “defense in depth” after there massive cock-up of the initial “continuous front” operations. But it really didn’t matter what the French did after May 15-17 1940, since they no longer had any significant mobile forces for counterattack. They were monumentally ****ed…
I think that actually, military speaking, USA are quite strong to not need other NATO allies support. But this is not the point: I think too that was a duty, for an ally, to help USA after the attack of the 9/11. Help meaning support or lightening some tasks, because I repeat, strictly speaking, USA can do everything by themselves.
Other are the considerations in my opinion:
- The war in Iraq was an aggression war and a mistake. Even if the USA are quite strong to open and manage wars on more fronts, it was an error (political and military) open a new front when the mission in Afghanistan was not yet accomplished.
Of course for guys like **** Chiney’s and his companions the point of view is different. But I think that Chiney, like Kissinger for example, represent the worst face of USA, not the best.
The lackey Berlusconi followed this error in Iraq, of course (speaking about Italy). And with ridicolous engagment rules, in a first time (we enter in a political-military problem too long to discuss, see on my forum IlCovo). - Anyway, after 10 years in Afghanistan, if of course the USA are rightly tired, let’s imagine the US allies! And this in a bad context: the world economic crisis that is fault, in the biggest part, of the same US plutocratic system.
Speaking about Italy, we’ve troops in Afghanistan, in Balkans, in Africa and in Lebanon and against Gheddafi. A bit too much, especially in time of crisis.
I would retreat all the Italian troops from, in this moment, useless frontlines, to concentrate them against Gheddafi to resolve as soon as possible this problem just outside “our gates”. Of course the shit Italian politicians, firstly Berlusconi, after 40 years of servile disposition with the Tripolis Bedouin, have not clear ideas about what to do and let the troops where they’re now, with enormous costs and none interest for Italy, during a terrible economic crisis.
The only right thing done by Berlusca was the bright friendship with Russia, especially during the crisis Russia - Georgia (in fact the only criticism against him by USA, was about this point). And Russia was right in that accident, not Georgia, USA and Israel…
The problem is that it’s not an Italian foreign policy attitude, like should be, but it’s a personal attitude of Berlusconi. And not for the Italy’s interests, like would be (and it is), but for his PERSONAL interests in Gazprom…
The conclusion is, one more time, that Mussolini was a giant respect to these little stealers of nowdays, and even if he ruined Italy with the war and become a prisoner of Hitler after april 1941, before he was the only one to represent an Italy proud of its own rights, indipendent and effective in the State apparatus, in the contemporary era.
Coming back in topic… why did Italy lose?
Because Mussolini desobeyed to God… 
"03 April 2011, Pope Benedict XVI received in a private audience Cardinal Angelo Amato, sdb, prefect of the Congregation of the Causes of the Saints. During that audience, the Holy Father authorized the Congregation to promulgate the following thirteen decrees regarding:
A miracle, attributed to the intercession of the Venerable Servant of God ELENA AIELLO, founder of Congregation of the Minim Sisters of the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ; born on 10 April 1895 in Montalto Uffugo, Cosenza (Italy) and and died on 19 June 1961 in Rome (Italy); declared venerable on 22 January 1991 by J. Paul II.
[…]
In september the venerable Nun Elena Aiello will be officially beatified in a solemn ceremony. And her santification cause is going on with fast steps…"
Here the letters that the (newly) Blessed nun Elena Aiello wrote to Mussolini:
Cosenza, 23 April 1940
At the Head of Government
Benito Mussolini
Duce,
I come to you in the name of God to tell you what the Lord has revealed to me and wants from you. I did not want to write, but yesterday, 22, the Lord appeared again, commanding me to let you know the following:
"The world is in ruins, and especially for the many sins of impurity for the sins that came full in front of the Justice of my Heavenly Father. So you will have to suffer and be the propitiation for the world and particularly for Italy, where is the seat of my vicar. My kingdom is a kingdom of peace, but the world is all over the at war.
The Governors of the people are excited to acquire new territories. Poor blind! … They do’nt know where God is not there cann’t be real breakthrough! In their heart there is only evil and do nothing but abuse, mock, despise me! They are demons of Discord, subversive of the people and try to overwhelm in the terrible scourge Italy also, where is God in the midst of so many souls and the seat of my Vicar, Pastor Angelicus.
France, so dear to my heart, for his many sins, will soon fall into disrepair and will be overwhelmed and devastated as Jerusalem thankless.
To Italy, because the seat of my Vicar, I sent Benito Mussolini, to save her from the abyss toward which it had started, otherwise Italy would had come in worse conditions than Russia. In many dangers have always saved him, and now he has to keep Italy out of the war, because Italy is a civil and is the seat of my vicar on earth.If this will make extraordinary favors and I will bow down before him any other nation. He instead decided to declare war, but know that if not prevent, will be punished by my Justice! "
All this I said the Lord. Do not think, Duce, who I take care of politics. I am a poor nun dedicated to the education of poor and abandoned children, pray much for your salvation and the salvation of our Fatherland.
With sincere esteem
Yours
Sister Elena Aiello
(The letter was delivered to the Duce’s sister, Donna Edvige, May 6, 1940, and she handed it to Mussolini a few days later).
But here is another letter from Sister Elena Aiello, this time directly to Donna Edvige, in which she mentions the contents of the letter above:
Montalto Uffugo (CS), May 15, 1943
Dear Donna Edvige
my long silence that you will perhaps think that I have forgotten you, but instead I will remember every day, in my poor prayers, always following the painful events of our beautiful Italy.
We find ourselves out of Cosenza, due to the bombing. The barbaric enemy has vented his hatred, dropping bombs on the city of Cosenza, causing devastation, pain and death among the civilian population.
I was in bed with the pain: three bombs fell near our institute, but the Lord has saved us in his infinite goodness and mercy. To keep away the children from the danger of new raids, we took refuge in Montalto Uffugo, my native country, where we are certainly uncomfortable, but all offer the Lord for the salvation of Italy.
The reason for my writing is to appeal again to you, as in May of 1940, when I was in Rome presented by Baroness Ruggi to deliver in writing to the revelations from the Lord about the Duce. Remember when 6 May 1940, saying that the Duce had decided to go to war, while the Lord let him know in my letter that was to save Italy from the war or he would be punished by His Divine Justice? “In many dangers,” said Jesus, "I have always saved: he now has to save Italy from the scourge of war, because it is the seat of my vicar. If this will give him the extraordinary favors and I will bow down before him any other nation, but instead he decided to make war, but know that if not prevent, I will be punished by justice. "
Ah … if the Duce had heeded the words of Jesus, Italy would not have found such a sad condition now! …
I think that the heart of the Duce will be very saddened to see Italy from a flower garden turned into a deserted field, strewn with pain and death. But why continue this war’s cruel, if Jesus said that no one will win? So, dear Lady Hedwig, tell the Duce, in my name, that this is the last warning that the Lord sends him. Can still save by putting it in the hands of the Holy Father. “If you do not do this” said the Lord "will soon come upon him, the Divine Justice. The other Governors who do not heed the warnings and directives of my Vicar (1) will be reached and punished by my Justice. "Do you remember July 7 last year when I wondered what would become of the Duce and I told you maintained that if he had not joined the Pope would have ended up worse than Napoleon?! Now I repeat the same words: If the Duce will not save going back to Italy and will tell you what the Holy Father will soon fall, even from heaven, Bruno asks his father for the salvation of Italy and of himself.
The Lord often said that Italy will be saved by the Pope, expiatory victim of this scourge, so there will be no other way to true peace and salvation of the people, outside of what the Holy Father will draw.
Dear Lady Hedwig, think well how all that the Lord has said is perfectly true.
Who is it that has caused so much ruin to Italy? Was it not the Duce not to have heard the words of our Lord Jesus Christ?
Now you can still fix it by doing the will of the Lord.
I will not forget to pray.
Sister Elena Aiello
Have you undertood the Lord? Italy could really be the new Rome…
I report this as historical fact, we’ve discussed much about it on IlCovo… :lol:
You are free to keep from it your conclusion.
I let to your own curiosity to deepen the story of nun Elena Aiello, who, furthemore, was protagonist of a series of supernatural phenomena and miraculous, inexplicable to all doctors who have visited her. Just for example, I mention the fact that she suffered in her flesh, every Holy Friday, with extensive bleeding, the passion of Our Lord.
I knew Nick you didn’t want to attack me:)
I just point it out IMO that the military competence of officer corp is rather determine the success of Wermacht in first period of war. Not the territory. The “factor of territory” is the bitch for both sides. The resisted side also had a damn troubles moving the troops to giant distances. So as you said about France “French only lasted six weeks” i’m totally agree. But this is rather matter of competence of French command.
The Britons too lose at Khartoum and in Sudan, at Isandlwana and in Afghanistan, having better equipment. The same USA in Vietnam and Russia in Afghanistan. In Greece, on ground, the stronger forces were the Greek ones (Italians committed a political suicide, before than military). I think your vision is a bit superficial.
Another point is, in my opinion, (but anyway it’s a conseguence of what we already said) that Hitler, as leader of the most powerful Axis country, was the effective leader of the Axis coalition. No worst strategist than him was possible.
Mussolini, even with his own mistakes was a politician, first of all, but a strategist too, incomparably better than Hitler. Mussolini asked many times to not attack Russia, to ask France her North Africa strongholds as strategic military bases, to build up a Charter of the New Europe against the Anglo-American Atlantic Charter, to create, well or bad, indipendent new Poland and Ucraina. Furthermore, Mussolini asked to Hitler to accept the Stalin peace proposals, that 2 times the Soviet leader advanced to Germany (the first in late 1941, the second the following year). Hitler refused digging his graveyard…
Even in advanced 1943 Mussolini, high value politician, would be able to avoid (perhaps) the complete defeat Hitler was running on. In fact, when Hitler refused for the last time to find an arrangement with Russia and to put all the forces against the Anglo-Americans, even after the failure of the Citadelle Operation (july 1943), Mussolini, in complete agreement and cooperation with the governments of Japan, Hungary and Romenia (and last but not least, some importan German personalities in background), was going to put in action a plan to force the Hitler’s hand.
That was: after a meeting with Goering (that shared the Mussolini point of view) the july 27th, Italy would had launch a sort of ultimatum to Hitler: armistice with Russia or Italy had taken her own way. The following day, 28th, the Japanese government with a personal letter of Tojo to Hitler, would had declared the complete sharing of the Japan with the Duce’s will. Soon after, Hungary and Romenia would had officialy declared to join the postion of Italy and Japan for opening soon negiotiations with Soviet Union.
Furthermore, Mussolini would had opened before mid august an International Conference of the Axis and neutral nations (like Spain and Turkey) for the Charter of the New Europe against the Anglosaxons powers.
Mussolini not only knew that all the Axis powers shared with him the idea that the war against Russia was useless and had led to defeat, but too that in the German high levels many people shared this consideration (sometime even in a strategic point of view, since the times of Von Clausewitz onwards…).
In this new international situation, the disappointment in a big part of the German leadership would had finally come out, putting more strenght against Hitlers strictness, changing the Axis strategy.
In fact the first real plot against Hitler was in april 1943 (the bomb that not exploded in his aircraft). Then, Russia was still far from the German fronteers, and differently from the Anglosaxons, above all, Russia had not spoken about “inconditional surrender” but instead had advanced proposals of armistice.
Unfortunatly, the keen political move of the Duce was prevented by the king’s and military putch tha pulled him down. So the Axis lost the last possibility and Italy fronted the shaming ways of her armistice.
In 1944, when it was too late and things changed in worse, the German military plot against hitler didn’t think anymore to an agreement with Russia: now the Soviets were at the German borders and were felt as the worst menace. And now they had no more peace proposals… Stauffemberg, Rommel and the others hoped to an agreement with the Anglosaxons, now. Probably too late, and in the bad direction, because the Allies were still firm in the unconditional surrender formula. Who had been opened for an armistice, was Russia, not Anglosaxons, despite Hitler wills (in 1939-41) and despite the plotters wills (in 1944).
Concluding, even in mid 1943, with a different leadership respect to the Hitler’s disasters, Axis could had perhaps avoid the complete defeat.
Germany, and Axis coalition, would had needed a new Bismarck, or Mussolini himself, like effective leader, not an Hitler.
Just some little points.
Khartoum is in Sudan, Britain and Egypt lost at Khartoum after an 8 month siege when they were outnumbered, the British Government did not send any relief forces during that period. It was reconquered a year later by troops under Kitchener.
Isandlwana was British troops heavily outnumbered by the Zulu forces who were well led and trained. Those same Zulus were defeated a few days later at Rorkes Drift by an even more outnumbered British force.
Better equipment is only one part of a battle and rarely wins on its own, tactics and strategy are arguably more important, with training and morale/motivation close behind.
Frankly, the Italians lost because they had no real desire to win; they hated their “ally”; and they were not equipped to fight a modern war. End of story. My opinions, of course.
???
Everybody would win. Italians knew they did not have the means to fight a world war, but supposed to participate in a war already over and won. This blunder has conditioned their entire war from beginning to end. It 's also clear that theirs was a war with little underlying moral motivation, apart ideological antipathies. Anyway ideologies contest the political systems and regimes, rather than countries or peoples, and it’s impossible “to hate” the enemy by order.
Russia, Germany, Britain, France had ancient moral reasons under the fire of the war, against an ancient enemy. Italy had right reasons, for example, of recrimination towards his former allies of WWI, but is this sufficient for a strong will against the enemy? No. But the will of duty was however strong, generally, in Italian troops. Just will of duty, also because the true italian moral reason was: “The war is over, let’s take our little share of the booty before it ends”. Is it possible to hate Greece in this way?
Of course there were many people, especially young, volounteers, fascists etc. that sincerely believed to support a just cause against selfish, plutocratic and corrupted powers, but the general motivation of the Italian war were different: simply, of cynical realpolitik. If France had resisted by a “new Marne”, Italy would never have gone to war. This is the true point.